Joshybear (Ike) vs Vykan12 (Ulki)

[Jaybee]

Vykan's first counter is here. Unfortunately, I lost my opener:(

Ike leaves Tellius at the end of the game. Thats badass.

Actually, most people found that to be an underwhelming ending to the series. What’s sillier than to abandon your people for no particular reason at all?

Ulki stays in Phoenicis to spy in other people. Lame.

Spies are cool. They’re sneaky, mischievous and resourceful.

I'll start with availability. Firstly, Ike has 6 chapters more than Ulki, these being 3-P to 3-5. These chapters are Ike's time to shine. He'll be killing everything, or at least severely damaging stuff. Great.

Now, I’ll go to supports. Ike has Earth affinity, the best in the game, though Ulki has Water affinity, which is probably second best. Ike only holds a small advantage here.

Ike wins Atk by 4.2, Def by 0.6 and Crit by 5.2. Ulki, on the other hand, wins HP by 12.4, Hit by 24.8 and AS by 11.6, along with Avo by 30. It may seem as though Ulki is pwning Ike, and he is.

Awesome.

However, Ulki has gauge issues and has competition for Satori Signs in Ranulf and Janaff.

You’re kidding, right? First of all, Ranulf isn’t even going to reach lv 30 until part 4.

Laguz CEXP gain is horrendous, as anyone could tell you, so most of Ranulf’s levelling comes from BEXP. However, 4 levels requires 16600 BEXP on HM. The GMs only get at most 33925-54275, depending on what you did with the CRK BEXP. Ranulf would need to use 30-49% of the GMs total supply of BEXP just to be able to use a satori sign.

Moreover, you get a ton of satori signs during the game. You get one in 3-10 (which I guess Ranulf could use), 4-P, 4-1 and 4-2. That’s enough to put a satori sign on everyone we want while also adding in Mordecai, Skrimir and Kyza once they hit lv 30.

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As for the gauge problem, it exists but you’re exaggerating its negative impact slightly. Assuming Ulki is transformed, here are all the ways for him to fall below 15 meter and thus want to pop more grass.

1) 4 turns pass.

2) 3 turns pass, 1 enemy fought.

3) 2 turns pass, 3 enemies fought.

4) 1 turn passes, 4 enemies fought.

5) 5 enemies fought.

I’d say out of those scenarios, number 3 is the most likely one, which means Ulki needs to pop grass every 3 turns. That might sound bad, but remember that Ulki has 9 move, canto and flying versus Ike’s 7 move, meaning Ulki’s reaching more enemies to begin with. This translates into Ulki’s favors in various ways.

If both units use full move for 3 turns, then Ulki is ahead by 6 spaces. By then, Ulki is reaching enemies a full turn earlier. It doesn’t matter how inefficient Ulki is on turn 3 since Ike is comparatively doing nothing. Now imagine the above scenario, except now Ike has some sort of movement obstacle such as the sand bags in 3-11. If Ulki and Ike were on the same spot, it might take Ike 8 move (up 3, right 2, down 3) to go where Ulki could go in 2 (right 2). That’s a 6 move advantage in a single turn. In the course of a whole chapter, these types of things compound, so Ulki could end up a whole 12+ spaces infront of Ike. Even if Ulki had to move back fully to pop some grass, he’s STILL ahead of Ike and can remain that way for as long as he wishes.

Oh, and before I forget, Ulki has some fairly minor advantages that his class provides. Canto makes it easier for Ulki to get vigored by Reyson, which makes the movement difference even more pronounced. He can also both shove and rescue, while doing both more effectively due to a weight and con advantage.

You might protest that transformed Ulki isn’t always fully moving, but that would only be true if he were doing really poorly statistically like Sigrun or something. But with 132 base avo, enemies cannot even hit Ulki, no less kill him (59 hp and 22 def absorbs quite a few hits), and offensively, Ulki’s at least 2 rounding everything he faces. The only thing that can actually stop Ulki in his tracks is a crossbow since they do 62 damage to him, but even then their odds of killing him are only ~13.78%. Moreover, there’s a plethora of ways to overcome that issue such as a seraph robe, a dracoshield, nullify, A defence support + gaining a point of hp, or even simply out-maneuvering such enemies. Finally, these enemies are rare. 2 in 3-7, 2 in 3-8, 1 in 3-10, 1 in 3-11, 1 in 4-1 to 4-4, and I think 1 in all of 4-E. That’s 8 total instances in the entirety of his playtime.

Anyway, there is only 1 situation I can think of where transformation issues actually give Ike an advantage, and that is pre-transformation. At worst, Ulki uses 2 olivi grasses and transforms on turn 3, which gives Ike 2 turns of attacking in his favor. But then you have to consider the possibility of them using a laguz stone, Reyson allowing 2 olivis in 1 turn, and even indirect enemy attacks giving +15 meter, all of which would allow Ulki to transform on turns 1-2. Then, considering the magnitude of Ulki’s enemy exposure after transforming, pre-transformation issues hardly make a difference in the big picture.

tl;dr movement advantage easily outweighs transform issues.

Ike is also crucial in regards to unlocking Lehran, which is countered by Ulki's ability to cross water easily. IMO, it’s quite even.

Ike also needs some rather inflated statistics for unlocking Lehran to even be possible. Most importantly, he needs 27 spd, but at lv 15, he only has 24 on average, so he’d need 2 speedwings just to pull that off. Hell, even if Ike were lv 20 already, he still only averages 26.15 spd. If my calculations are correct, Ike only has a 39% chance of having 27 spd or higher at lv 20.

Then let’s look at what recruiting Lehran is bringing to the table. He brings a 3 use Ashera staff, but you already have a 5 use fortify staff, as well as hammerne if you ran out for some reason. Okay, so let’s suppose Lehran frees up a healer for you. But then your best attacker who can also heal is Elincia, but she only has 45 Mt at max level with the amiti. That’s 10-20 damage to auras per round, 20-40 with Nasir or Ena/Gareth’s help. Alternatively, Lehran could himself attack with Rexlight, his optimal tome choice, at which point he does 24-44 damage to auras.

So we’re basically wasting 1, possibly 2 speedwings on a unit who can already double most enemies so that we can beat the final chapter a wee bit faster. You’d easily benefit more from putting those 1-2 speedwings into someone like Haar, as a doubling Haar basically breaks the game.

Ulki will be going to the Hawk Army.

Let’s not forget that Ulki has an advantage in being able to go in any army he pleases. Personally, I’d expect him to go with Micaiah so that he can flex his muscles in the desert.

Okay, Ike is getting whooped again.

Wicked cool.

However, as previously mentioned, Ulki has gauge, and now Skrimir wants a Satori.

Both have been already addressed.

However, come 4-5, Tibarn is the only one needed to complete 4-5. Woot at killing Izuka in 3 turns.

You don’t need Ike to beat 4-1 and 4-4 efficiently, so that argument is moot.

Now they are quite close.

We’ll call it a tie.

Tibarn outclasses Ulki.

Shinon outclasses Ike in 4-E, but that has no relevance to our debate. Besides, seeing how good both units are, what is stopping us from deploying both of them?

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So in conclusion, Ulki’s much better when he’s around, which you’ve already admitted from a statistical standpoint. A slight support and availability advantage isn’t enough to counter the magnitude of Ulki’s leads everywhere else.

[Jaybee]

I'm actually being a hypocrite because I just argued Ulki up in the tier list, but whatever.

Actually, most people found that to be an underwhelming ending to the series. What’s sillier than to abandon your people for no particular reason at all?

It beats being a helper to a king.

Spies are cool. They’re sneaky, mischievous and resourceful.

Ulki is not sneaky nor mischievous. Janaff would fit this position better.

Awesome.

He's a freaking Level 28 laguz, what do you expect?

You’re kidding, right? First of all, Ranulf isn’t even going to reach lv 30 until part 4.

[...]

Laguz CEXP gain is horrendous, as anyone could tell you, so most of Ranulf’s levelling comes from BEXP. However, 4 levels requires 16600 BEXP on HM. The GMs only get at most 33925-54275, depending on what you did with the CRK BEXP. Ranulf would need to use 30-49% of the GMs total supply of BEXP just to be able to use a satori sign.

Ranulf could easily take a small amount of BEXP at the end of every chapter, or fight untransformed.

Moreover, you get a ton of satori signs during the game. You get one in 3-10 (which I guess Ranulf could use), 4-P, 4-1 and 4-2. That’s enough to put a satori sign on everyone we want while also adding in Mordecai, Skrimir and Kyza once they hit lv 30.

Still, you only have 2 until 3-10, and Ulki faces competition from Janaff, who takes less BEXP to level, and Ranulf, who has had 3-4 to fight untransformed.

I’d say out of those scenarios, number 3 is the most likely one, which means Ulki needs to pop grass every 3 turns. That might sound bad, but remember that Ulki has 9 move, canto and flying versus Ike’s 7 move, meaning Ulki’s reaching more enemies to begin with. This translates into Ulki’s favor in various ways.

Ulki's 9 move ahead of Ike translates into him fighting more enemies because he'll be so far up front. He'll then untransform earlier. Also, Ike has no transform probs.

If both units use full move for 3 turns, then Ulki is ahead by 6 spaces. By then, Ulki is reaching enemies a full turn earlier.

Thus untransforming earlier because he'll be facing a lot of enemies.

It doesn’t matter how inefficient Ulki is on turn 3 since Ike is comparatively doing nothing.

Ike will be catching up to Ulki, distracting enemies from Ulki since Ike is lower leveled.

Now imagine the above scenario, except now Ike has some sort of movement obstacle such as the sand bags in 3-11. If Ulki and Ike were on the same spot, it might take Ike 8 move (up 3, right 2, down 3) to go where Ulki could go in 2 (right 2). That’s a 6 move advantage in a single turn. In the course of a whole chapter, these types of things compound, so Ulki could end up a whole 12+ spaces infront of Ike. Even if Ulki had to move back fully to pop some grass, he’s STILL ahead of Ike and can remain that way for as long as he wishes.

Other units want to train in these chapters, you know. Like, uh, Mia. And maybe Oscar. Ulki charging ahead and wrecking everything is not going to help their case.

Oh, and before I forget, Ulki has some fairly minor advantages that his class provides. Canto makes it easier for Ulki to get vigored by Reyson, which makes the movement difference even more pronounced. He can also both shove and rescue, while doing both more effectively due to a weight and con advantage.

Conceded.

You might protest that transformed Ulki isn’t always fully moving, but that would only be true if he were doing really poorly statistically like Sigrun or something. But with 132 base avo, enemies cannot even hit Ulki, no less kill him (59 hp and 22 def absorbs quite a few hits), and offensively, Ulki’s at least 2 rounding everything he faces. The only thing that can actually stop Ulki in his tracks is a crossbow since they do 62 damage to him, but even then their odds of killing him are only ~13.78%. Moreover, there’s a plethora of ways to overcome that issue such as a seraph robe, a dracoshield, nullify, A defence support + gaining a point of hp, or even simply out-maneuvering such enemies.

I wasn't really gonna oppose this.

2 in 3-7, 2 in 3-8, 1 in 3-10, 1 in 3-11, 1 in 4-1 to 4-4, and I think 1 in all of 4-E. That’s 8 total instances in the entirety of his playtime.

You conveniently left out snipers and wind sages. Also, Ulki isn't going to the Greil Army. He sucks there. These numbers are taken from the HM stats topic.

3-7: 3 crossbow dudes, 1 of which is a reinforcement. 5 Wind Sages and 3 Snipers, 1 of which is a reinforcement.

3-8: 2 crossbow dudes, 1 of which is a reinforcement. 2 Snipers and 1 Wind Sage.

3-10: 1 crossbow dude, 6 snipers/bow paladins. Sergei is one of the bow paladins.

3-11: 2 crossbow dudes (the boss and another random sniper), 5 snipers, 1 of which is a reinforcement, 2 Wind Sages.

3-E: 4 snipers, 1 Wind Sage. The Wind Sage has Blizzard and Elwind.

4-P: 1 crossbow dude, 8 Bow Paladins, 1 is a reinforcement.

4-1: 1 crossbow dude, 3 snipers

4-2: 2 crossbow dudes, 4 snipers, 1 bow paladin reinforcement, 2 wind sages, the reinforcement carries Blizzard

4-3: 5 crossbow dudes, 1 is a reinforcement. 12 snipers, 3 are reinforcements. 1 Wind Sage and 1 Wind Sage reinforcement.

4-4: 2 crossbow dudes, 8 snipers, 3 of which are reinforcements, 4 wind sages

4-5: Obvious

4-E-1: 2 snipers, 1 carries the Double Bow. 3 Wind Sages, 1 has Blizzard

4-E-2: 6 snipers, along over 9000 reinforcements.

Hey, the route which according to you, Ulki would most likely take, has the most enemies that are effective against him!

tl;dr movement advantage easily outweighs transform issues.

Add in weaknesses to enemy types and that little sentence kinda changes a bit.

Most importantly, he needs 27 spd, but at lv 15, he only has 24 on average, so he’d need 2 speedwings just to pull that off. Hell, even if Ike were lv 20 already, he still only averages 26.15 spd. If my calculations are correct, Ike only has a 39% chance of having 27 spd or higher at lv 20.

Giving him a Speedwing isn’t a bad choice. He now might be able to get Lehran and it helps him get closer to hitting that spd cap of 37.

He brings a 3 use Ashera staff, but you already have a 5 use fortify staff, as well as hammerne if you ran out for some reason.

If we really aren’t gonna run out, then I might as well use the Matrona. It has the effects of Fortify and sends the target’s Bio the Best. That does more than Fortify does.

Okay, so let’s suppose Lehran frees up a healer for you. But then your best attacker who can also heal is Elincia, but she only has 45 Mt at max level with the amiti. That’s 10-20 damage to auras per round, 20-40 with Nasir or Ena/Gareth’s help. Alternatively, Lehran could himself attack with Rexlight, his optimal tome choice, at which point he does 24-44 damage to auras.

Lehran is basically an invincible attacker. Elincia rejoins at a crappy level in 4-2, so she might not do much, much less come to endgame. Micky is probably the best choice as a healer. Also, it’s Rexaura, not Rexlight.

So we’re basically wasting 1, possibly 2 speedwings on a unit who can already double most enemies so that we can beat the final chapter a wee bit faster. You’d easily benefit more from putting those 1-2 speedwings into someone like Haar, as a doubling Haar basically breaks the game.

Those speedwings don’t go to waste, as already mentioned. Also, if I’m not wrong, we get 1 Speedwing in 1-E, 2-3 and 3-9. One can go to Ike, 2 can go to Haar or any other slow h4x unit.

Let’s not forget that Ulki has an advantage in being able to go in any army he pleases. Personally, I’d expect him to go with Micaiah so that he can flex his muscles in the desert.

Addressed.

Shinon outclasses Ike in 4-E, but that has no relevance to our debate. Besides, seeing how good both units are, what is stopping us from deploying both of them?

And yet Ike is crucial to completing Endgame, E-2 and E-5 in particular. Ulki and Tibarn have no special event in 4-E, so we can compare them by how they will fare in combat, unlike Shinon – Ike.

Ulki = Good in endgame? Ha! He’s already freaking outclassed by the freak show that is Tibarn, and it is now when Insight is starting to get better than Vigilance.

Ike has a slight support lead and a 6 chapter availability lead on Ulki, even though he gets beat in combat for quite a bit of the game. However, Ike is absolutely necessary to completing the game, whereas Ulki is unnecessary. Ike > Ulki.

[Vykan12]

Let’s cut to the chase since joking at the beginning of a debate is getting to be a bit of a tiresome ritual.

He's a freaking Level 28 laguz, what do you expect?

You’re assuming that Ulki has high base stats because he has a high base level, which is a generalization akin to assuming all generals have high def growths. At any rate, this doesn’t lessen Ulki’s statistical leads in any way. It simply means Ike will level faster than Ulki in future comparisons, something that’s already been accounted for.

Ranulf could easily take a small amount of BEXP at the end of every chapter, or fight untransformed.

Let’s suppose that Ranulf gains 5 exp per kill. If he gets 6 kills in a map, that’s only 30 exp total, so he still needs 70% of the BEXP that I claimed in my previous post. Now just imagine what happens when we’re being more realistic and Ranulf is getting 1-3 exp per kill.

The notion of training Ranulf or any laguz untransformed is rather silly. Even Mordecai dies easily when untransformed, so there’s considerable risk involved, and Ranulf is doing pitiful damage on counter-attacks, if any at all. That’s a lot of inefficiency to demand just so Ranulf can level up a bit faster.

Still, you only have 2 until 3-10, and Ulki faces competition from Janaff, who takes less BEXP to level, and Ranulf, who has had 3-4 to fight untransformed.

If there’s 2 satoris available before 3-10, Janaff and Ulki both take one, and Ranulf takes his in 3-10, assuming he magically reached lv 30 by then.

Ulki's 9 move ahead of Ike translates into him fighting more enemies because he'll be so far up front. He'll then untransform earlier.

Ulki is fighting more enemies than Ike despite his cannabis addiction, which results in a net advantage.

Ike will be catching up to Ulki

This doesn’t counter my point. If Ulki is a full turn ahead of Ike, he could literally do nothing on that turn and still be as effective as him. Or, he could move ahead 2 spaces while puffing some reefer and still have greater enemy phase exposal.

distracting enemies from Ulki since Ike is lower leveled.

What? Enemies don’t care what level your units are, they prioritize their attacks on the weakest available target, usually the person with the lowest hp/def. At least, that’s what most empirical data seems to indicate.

Other units want to train in these chapters, you know. Like, uh, Mia. And maybe Oscar. Ulki charging ahead and wrecking everything is not going to help their case.

Ulki can choose to jump ahead of the group and handle enemies, or can choose to refrain himself. Greater options > lesser options essentially.

You conveniently left out snipers and wind sages.

Neither OHKO him, nor do they have the inflated hit that crossbows do, so it didn’t seem worth mentioning.

First off, Ulki laughs heartily at wind sages. Though they get triple might on him, tomes have low Mt in general, and triple a low value is still a relatively low value. Then Ulki has a respectable 20 res and of course that massive 59 hp, so it should be obvious even before looking at detailed stats that these enemies aren’t too threatening to him.

Anyway, let’s take a 3-11 wind sage.

1x Wind Sage lvl 16 (Elwind, Shine Barrier)

HP 37, Atk 30 [42 effective], As 19, Hit 153, Avo 63, Def 13, Res 19, Crit 9, Ddg 15

Ulki (C Janaff) is 3HKOed at 7 true hit. This results in a 0.03% chance of death in 3 attacks. To draw an analogy, that’s like drawing 4 of a kind in a game of poker, and I doubt there’s even 3 consecutive wind sages in the entire game.

Though while we’re on the topic of sages, let’s look at how Ike does vs these bookworms. A lv 20 Ike (A Oscar) is 3HKOed at 12 true hit (0.17% chance of death in 3 attacks). What’s worse is Ike was only 5 damage short of being 2HKOed, whereas Ulki was 17.

That leaves snipers. Using 3-11 again, we’ve got:

4x Sniper lvl 16 (Steel Bow)

HP 41, Atk 33 [53 effective], AS 21, Hit 160, Avo 70, Def 20, Res 14, Crit 23, Ddg 18

Ulki is 2HKOed at 14 true (1.96% death chance in 2 attacks). Though, unlike crossbows, snipers do not counter on player phase, which helps mitigate this flaw. For one thing, everyone on your team wants to attack archers since that guarantees they won’t face any P. phase damage. For another, if there are 2 bow threats immediately ahead of Ulki, he can take one out while avoiding a death risk on enemy phase. Alternatively, if there are numerous snipers ahead, he can perform hit & run tactics. At worst, he falls a bit behind the main group but then promptly jumps back ahead, all the while getting a free grassing opportunity while he was avoiding those snipers. None of this is even considering the possibility of nullify which has a good chance of going to one of the hawks. None of Marcia, Tanith and Sigrun are likely to be in play in the long run, Elincia only joins in part 4 and is best suited to physic healing, and Haar’s problem with thunder mages is that they kill him with a crit, which is true whether he has nullify or not.

Also, Ulki isn't going to the Greil Army. He sucks there.

Even supposing this is true (you gave no justification so “no u” will suffice as a counter), Ulki still has 2 army options to Ike’s 1.

*sniper/crossbow/windmage data from 3-7 to 4-E-2*

Hey, the route which according to you, Ulki would most likely take, has the most enemies that are effective against him!

You’re trying to claim that Ulki’s worst route is Ike’s, so why are you listing data concerning 7 chapters that have nothing to do with route splits? Anyway, it seems to me that there are more bow threats on Micaiah’s route than Ike’s, which contradicts the point you were trying to make.

Add in weaknesses to enemy types and that little sentence kinda changes a bit.

Just a reminder that Ike does worse against wind sages (let alone any res hitting enemy) than Ulki does, and is also more support dependent than Ulki for his durability.

Giving him a Speedwing isn’t a bad choice.

It’s a terrible choice. You’re giving Ike the most desired stat booster in the game just so he can recruit a superfluous character in the final chapter. Getting a given GM unit from doubling nothing to everything outweighs that in ways I cannot describe, and every non Ike/Mia/Shinon/decent non-Mordy laguz is afflicted with doubling amnesia to a certain degree.

it helps him get closer to hitting that spd cap of 37.

What magical benefit does that give? 34 spd is enough to double anything but auras, which require either 34 spd + Nasir or 39 spd, which is above Ike’s cap. The speedwing would give him 4 more avo as well, though that’s just padding durability overkill. What’s next, you’re going to recommend that an immortal person should prolong their lifespan with cryogenic stasis?

If we really aren’t gonna run out, then I might as well use the Matrona. It has the effects of Fortify and sends the target’s Bio the Best. That does more than Fortify does.

Matrona doesn’t heal everyone within a mag/2 radius, it only heals one person. It’s basically an upgraded version of a physic staff.

[speedwings] One can go to Ike, 2 can go to Haar or any other slow h4x unit.

This isn’t changing the fact that Ike is taking the speedwing from a recipient who could make much better use of it, or even equal use.

List of units with semi-serious doubling issues

Tauroneo

Part 4 Elincia

Haar

Titania

Soren

Boyd

Tanith

Skrimir

Then putting a speedwing on someone like Aran would get him doubled less, or putting it on a speedy-ish unit could allow them to double SMs, or even putting one on Caineghis makes it realistic for him to double auras without Nasir’s help, which is essentially an extra 32-45+ damage to auras per turn on that map.

And yet Ike is crucial to completing Endgame, E-2 and E-5 in particular.

Roy has to seize thrones in FE6 to beat the game. Top tier for necessity!

Ulki and Tibarn have no special event in 4-E, so we can compare them by how they will fare in combat, unlike Shinon – Ike.

I’m sorry, I cannot counter this statement since it outright puzzles me. Clarification?

Ulki = Good in endgame? Ha! He’s already freaking outclassed by the freak show that is Tibarn,

I guess you missed the point of my Shinon example. We compare units based on their contribution to combat, not how well they fare against other units who happen to share the same class as them. Tibarn being > Ulki in 4-E has no relevance to Ulki’s chances of being deployed, or if it does, it’s hurting his chances just as badly as everyone else Tibarn is beating.

and it is now when Insight is starting to get better than Vigilance.

Tibarn doesn’t have either so you must be making a Janaff > Ulki argument for no apparent reason. Regardless, you just proverbially shot yourself in the foot by drawing attention to another advantage of Ulki’s I didn’t give due respect.

A level 33 Ulki (I believe that’s what you put him at in your endgame comparison) has 204 hit to max level Ike’s 197. Moreover, Ulki’s biorhythm has a lower amplitude than Ike’s, meaning he has less to lose from being at low bio than Ike does. So if Ulki suddenly has trouble hitting auras and spirits, Ike’s problems in that department are relatively worse.

However, Ike is absolutely necessary to completing the game, whereas Ulki is unnecessary.

Addressed. Lords don’t auto-top tier lists for having to perform “necessary” functions like seizing thrones. Sure, Ike beating the BK and finishing off Ashera are more combat oriented necessities, but not in such a way as to force Ike to be used seriously. An 18/1 Ike can defeat the BK with a hammer, and killing Ashera is possible so long as Ike can land the hit, which isn’t exactly a daunting task.

[Jaybee]

I got owned. I surrender. There is no way for me to win this debate.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Joshybear25