Vykan12 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) Feel free to add in new content or reword paragraphs for the sake of clarity. Q: What is a tier list? A: It is a ranking system where characters are listed from best to worst based on how they contribute towards specific criteria. For example, we could make a tier list where characters are ranked based on the length of their name, with longer names netting you a higher ranking. Such a list might look as follows: Cristopher Benjamin Allan Roger Denny Brad Chad Eric Bob Since FE tier lists are usually quite large, it is common to make “tier separations” for aesthetic purposes. So our previous example could look like this: Top tier Cristopher Benjamin High tier Allan Roger Denny Low tier Brad Chad Eric Bottom tier Bob Usually, the criteria for a tier list will be one of the following: a) Characters are compared based on how they contribute towards an efficient playthrough. By efficiency I am mainly referring to turn count and resource expenditure. Normally you’d expect a high tier unit to require fairly basic weapons and items while giving great returns in terms of their combat usefulness. Conversely, a lower ranked unit would probably require a lot of resources while giving less satisfactory combat returns. B) Characters are compared based on how they contribute towards ranked runs. Note that only FE4-7 have an in-game ranking system. If we use FE7’s as an example, a unit is considered good if they make meaningful contributions to any of the tactics, survival, funds, experience or combat ranks. These set of criteria have largely been abandoned due to ranks that contradict each other (eg/ tactics and exp rank), as well as various other reasons I will not elaborate about here. In addition, there are numerous assumptions that are universal to most FE tier lists. -You only account for the contributions a character provides when they are playable. If a character starts off as say, an enemy before being recruited, then the actions that character takes as an enemy will not be held against his/her ranking. -If a characters performs a function that is literally “necessary” to completing the game, said function is usually disregarded. The prime example of this would be lord characters who are forced to seize a throne to complete a map. If we actually accredited lords for said necessary contribution, they’d auto-top tier their respective list, which isn’t very interesting for comparison purposes. -No RNG or glitch abuse of any kind. This should be pretty self-explanatory. -The better a character is, the more likely they are to be in play in a given playthrough. This is mainly important when discussing supports. Q: What are average stats/averages? A: They are the statistics a character would have if they were just as likely to be RNG blessed as RNG screwed. We use average stats as the primary means of comparing 2 units statistically. Averages can be found on fea.fewiki.net, feplanet and of course here on serenes. Q: Explain some of the common terminology used in FE tier lists and debates. A: -PEMN: Personal experience means nothing. This is a popular rebuttal to people who use their own personal experience alone to justify a character’s placement. The logic behind the acronym is that you cannot infer whether a character is good or bad in a game based so heavily on random chance because you could’ve simply ended up with a heavily RNG blessed or screwed character. -DA / Doubling: Double attacking. -AS: Attack speed. -Avo: Avoid. -Cev/ddg: Crit evade/dodge. -RNG: Random number generator. If you didn’t already know, many aspects of the game such as level-ups and hit rates are based on random chance. If a character has say, a 50% strength growth and the RNG produces a value of 46, then that character will get a strength-up. If the random number produced is 78, then no strength-up will occur. -RNs: Random numbers. -RNG Screwed: When a character has stats below those of his or her simple average at any given level. -RNG Blessed: When a character has stats above those of his or her simple average at any given level. Sandbagging: Purposely misusing or sabotaging a character in a comparison with another. For example, denying a character an inexpensive buyable weapon would be obvious sandbagging since every character has an inherent claim to weapons. Favoritism/Babying: Providing a unit with excessive preferential treatment. For instance, letting your worst unit solo a chapter would be blatant favoritism since it is not only inefficient but deprives your entire army of combat exp they could’ve used for statistic improvement. Inflated level: Assuming a unit is at a higher level at any point in the game than the unit should reasonably be. Deciding what a resonable level is depends on the assumed team size as well as a few other factors, so it’s a tricky subject. Usually you’ll see debaters say things like “assuming a 10 man team, 1.4 levels per chapter sounds pretty reasonable”. It usually helps to substantiate these claims using exp formulas which can be found in the site’s calculation section for a specific game. Feeding kills: Having one or possibly even several units weaken an enemy to low hp for another unit to finish off. The unit who’s dealing the finishing blow is the one metaphorically being spoonfed. This is considered a form of favoritism. -NPC: Non-playable character. A character that cannot be controlled. -Crit: Critical hit percentage. -Critting: Landing a critical hit. Mt: Weapon might. Effective Mt: Tricky to explain so I’ll just jump to an example. If a hammer has 13 Mt, it has 26-39 effective Mt against armors/generals, depending on the game. Atk: Attack power. Wt: Weapon weight. Weighed down: Refers to attack speed loss incurred by equipping a specific weapon. -#HKO: Number hit KO. If I say Jeremy is 3HKOed by a steel axe!warrior, I mean Jeremy will die if a warrior using a steel axe hits him 3 consecutive times. -#RKO: Number round KO. Similar idea to #HKO, except this time it refers to the number of rounds of combat a unit can face before dying. If you do not see the distinction between #HKO and #RKO, consider the following example: Sam is 6HKOed by iron sword!myrmidons. However, these myrmidons can double her, so she’s 3RKOed. -Real/true hit and display hit: Read here. -Proc%: Procurage percentage. This refers to the chances of a character activating any number of skills at least once in a round of combat. Let’s say Brennan has a 7% chance of critting a red dragon, and that he doubles said dragon. His odds of not critting the dragon at all are 0.93 x 0.93 x 100 = 86.49%. Thus his proc% is the complement of that, which is 13.51%. Availability: The amount of chapters of playtime a specific unit has. Durability: A unit’s ability to withstand enemy attacks. Thus, when looking at a unit’s durability, we examine the effectiveness of their hp, def, res and avo in regards to how well it allows them to survive enemy encounters. Concrete durability: A unit’s ability to withstand enemy hits. Essentially, concrete durability is the same thing as regular durability except that we ignore avo. Tank: Refers to a unit with impressive durability. As the analogy suggests, a tank is a sturdy unit that is difficult to take down. Canto: The ability to re-move after certain actions. WTA/WTD: Weapon triangle advantage / disadvantage. WTN: Weapon triangle neutrality (eg/ fire tomes vs swords). PC: Playable character. Positive/negative utility: A commonly used term when assessing a unit’s worth to some hypothetical team in play. A unit offers positive utility if their contribution is good enough that they are worth fielding. Conversely, a unit offers negative utility if you were better off not using that unit to begin with. How we weigh positive/negative utility is a rather controversial issue in tier debates. Resources: A term used to summarize (usually limited) things that can be consumed by player characters to improve their performance. For example a unit slot so they can be used in a chapter, or an amount of combat or bonus EXP, certain weapons, etc. CEXP: Combat experience. The experience you gain from engaging in combat with enemies in a given chapter. BEXP: Bonus experience. SEXP: Staff experience. Atk/kill exp: Attack/kill experience. Q: I found some terminology I can’t follow that this guide doesn’t cover either. A: Try checking here. Otherwise, just ask someone on the forum and they’ll likely help you out. Q: Are there any FE debating guides out there to help me out? A: Yes. Edited July 25, 2009 by Vykan12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 A great guide, but I'd like to expand on this one thing that might be a bit confusing: Durability: A unit’s ability to withstand enemy attacks.Concrete durability: A unit’s ability to withstand enemy hits. For anyone who can't tell the difference, "durability" generally includes everything that can keep a unit alive along with their defensive stats, including avoid, ranged attacks, Canto, etc, although avoid is what we usually use to separate them. "Concrete durability" is strictly defensive stats HP, Defense, and Resistance, sometimes leaving Resistance out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) You only account for the contributions a character provides when they are playable. If a character starts off as say, an enemy before being recruited, then the actions that character takes as an enemy will not be held against his/her ranking Does this include recruitment requirements? I know this is a contested point, but I feel that if a character has a...difficult recruitment, that should count against them, as it's a cost they incur as a prequisite to being used. Karla requires us to both use and train Bartre, somewhat problematic because Bartre is a subpar character in the first place. FE9 Naesala is another example(although he's not tiered but that's not the point), because the cost of using him is not being able to use Giffca or Tibarn, who are better. Edited July 21, 2009 by -Cynthia- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renall Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Does this include recruitment requirements? I know this is a contested point, but I feel that if a character has a...difficult recruitment, that should count against them, as it's a cost they incur as a prequisite to being used. Karla requires us to both use and train Bartre, somewhat problematic because Bartre is a subpar character in the first place. FE9 Naesala is another example(although he's not tiered but that's not the point), because the cost of using him is not being able to use Giffca or Tibarn, who are better. I never liked this because it leads to dumb shit like "Xavier's just too haaaaard to recruit!" or "Cyas auto-bottom because Sety is better" or "Karel auto-bottom because Harken brings the Brave Sword." If it's to be a point of the debate or tier list, it should be clearly established at the outset, and if it isn't mentioned, we should just assume everyone who can be recruited is, and in the rare event characters are mutually exclusive consider their position as if they were taken without respect to who they were taken in favor of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykan12 Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 Faq has been updated with Red Fox's suggestion. @Cynthia: I tend to agree with what Renall said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 I'm not sure if the following is necessary, but I guess it would be good to cover all grounds for a Tier list FAQ, no matter how obvious some of it may seem. That said, I have a few more suggestions for the terminology list: RNG Screwed: When a character has stats below those of his or her simple average at any given level. RNG Blessed: When a character has stats above those of his or her simple average at any given level. Sandbagging: Denying a unit available resources, usually in an attempt to make that character look worse than s/he really is. Favoritism/Babying: The opposite of sandbagging, aka giving a unit too many good resources to make the unit look better than s/he really is, especially at the cost of making other team members noticeably worse. Inflated level: Assuming a unit is at a higher level at any point in the game than the unit should reasonably be. If I think of any more I'll mention them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 I notice you mention ranked as part of the criteria for tier lists, but I think the FE7 tier list and other ranked tier lists have ditched ranking mode because some ranking criteria really promotes inefficiency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykan12 Posted July 25, 2009 Author Share Posted July 25, 2009 I notice you mention ranked as part of the criteria for tier lists, but I think the FE7 tier list and other ranked tier lists have ditched ranking mode because some ranking criteria really promotes inefficiency. That is why I wrote this in the faq: These set of criteria have largely been abandoned due to ranks that contradict each other (eg/ tactics and exp rank), as well as various other reasons I will not elaborate about here. I've added another update which includes Red Fox's suggestions while also adding "feeding kills" to the terminology breakdown. I still need to organize that section a bit though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 (edited) C/B/A [Character X] or C/B/A [Character X/Character Y]: Represents the unit's support partner. Forged [Weapon]: A mechanic that lets you make a weapon with altered stats (FE9 and 10) or alter an existing weapon's stats (FEDS) for a cost based off of the weapon's total price. Stat changes are usually mentioned as +X Might/+Y Hit/+Z Crit I would also clarify that PEMN only applies to RNG, and not to strategy/tactics. Also, Brad should be Top tier. >_> Edited July 27, 2009 by Paperblade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Since FE tier lists are usually quite large, it is common to make “tier separations” for aesthetic purposes. I don't agree with the idea of tier separations being purely aesthetic. Obviously it will vary by the list, but I've always considered tier separations to be a useful way to group units by relative utility, aka the breaks between tiers should also indicate significant jumps in usefulness. In other words, I'd expect units in Middle tier to be unequivocally better than anyone in Lower Middle, and the reverse for Upper Middle. Otherwise, there is no sense in even labelling the groups at all, since you could just crack them into random groups of 7 people purely to make it look pretty and easier to read, which is what "aesthetic" implies. Grouping by common utility makes for un-even sized groups, but that's by design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring Wraith Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) Could you add links to all of the tier lists? It'd be much easier than searching or flipping through pages upon pages. Started this project on my own. I'm not doing personal tiers and rankings. Gaiden: Tier List Holy War: Tier List 1.0 By Chapter 2nd Gen Tier List 2nd Gen Tier List 2.0 Path of Radiance: Tier List v3 Drafting Tier List 1.0 Tier List v2 Radiant Dawn: Hard Mode Drafting Drafting 2.0 Divided Parts Edited August 28, 2011 by Ring Wraith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knife Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Why aren't characters ranked by number in tier lists? I want to know which character is number 27 in that respective game without counting all the names. If quoting, quote me as Waha Kitty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykan12 Posted September 23, 2011 Author Share Posted September 23, 2011 Since I barely come here anymore, I'd be fine if other people wanted to update the OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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