FE9 Tier list v3

[-Cynthia-]

Hmm, I was looking at FEG today, and despite its apparent death I located a topic that suggested Bastian move to the bottom of Low.

While Bastian does have terrible Spd problems, I guess he can chip dragons decently or something or have some mediocre supports as opposed to none. Really, Ena doesn't do much better. She doubles more and is more durable, but has Mov/transform/Atk issues.

Any thoughts?

[Inui]

That tier list looks very close to one Reikken made ages ago. Which means it's generally accurate and I can agree with it. I think Tauroneo is a bit low and that low tier is a clusterfuck of errors, but that's it.

[dondon151]

If Reikken replaced this tier list with his feces arranged in sequential order by size, you'd still think it's accurate.

[Inui]

Nope. It still has to make sense. If he didn't make sense, I'd tell him, and I have.

[Interceptor]

Hmm, I was looking at FEG today, and despite its apparent death I located a topic that suggested Bastian move to the bottom of Low.

While Bastian does have terrible Spd problems, I guess he can chip dragons decently or something or have some mediocre supports as opposed to none. Really, Ena doesn't do much better. She doubles more and is more durable, but has Mov/transform/Atk issues.

Any thoughts?

Well, Ena has Endgame, being somewhat capable against Ashnard. We can't assume that Ike sucks soley because he failed to get Nasir (could have just been Aether-screwed), but I'd say it's more likely that he needs the help at any rate, since Ena exists.

That tier list looks very close to one Reikken made ages ago. Which means it's generally accurate and I can agree with it. I think Tauroneo is a bit low and that low tier is a clusterfuck of errors, but that's it.

Is this really the most substantive thing that you could think to add to the tier list thread? You may as well have said "my cat's breath smells like cat food".

[-Cynthia-]

That tier list looks very close to one Reikken made ages ago. Which means it's generally accurate and I can agree with it. I think Tauroneo is a bit low and that low tier is a clusterfuck of errors, but that's it.

Care to elaborate on the "clusterfuck of errors"? If it's about Rolf, lengthy discussions have already been had.

I'm curious what the probablity of Ike getting so stat screwed that Ena is actually a better Wrath+Resolve option. IIRC it's so low that I'm not really seeing that as a reason for her to be a tier above Bastian.

[Interceptor]

I'm curious what the probablity of Ike getting so stat screwed that Ena is actually a better Wrath+Resolve option. IIRC it's so low that I'm not really seeing that as a reason for her to be a tier above Bastian.

Tier breaks are subjective. Bastian is really bad, though. So bad, and surrounded by such good units, that the chance of him actually improving your efficiency seems really remote. Chipping a Dragon seems like the only reasonable thing that there is. I mean, isn't he basically the worst of the lategame filler units at this point?

[Dat Nick]

I'm curious what the probablity of Ike getting so stat screwed that Ena is actually a better Wrath+Resolve option.

You'll win the lottery before you get an unusable Ike.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

You'll win the lottery before you get an unusable Ike.

I guess I should win the lottery, Ike went 7 levels without speed before in one of my PTs

[Interceptor]

You'll win the lottery before you get an unusable Ike.

Perhaps, given the stipulation "unusable", because Ike is usable even when screwed, but there is a 13% chance that a 20/20 Ike will do 6 damage or less per hit to Ashnard, for example.

[Narga_Rocks]

Is this really the most substantive thing that you could think to add to the tier list thread? You may as well have said "my cat's breath smells like cat food".

Were you this antagonistic with Smash?

Personally I'm just glad he's stopped talking about Mia.

[Interceptor]

Were you this antagonistic with Smash?

I don't think that I ever compared smash to Ralph Wiggum, no.

Personally I'm just glad he's stopped talking about Mia.

You're right of course, we should treasure the small things in life.

[Narga_Rocks]

I might as well repost the thing about Bastian here:

Does he deserve his own tier?

35 hp, 12 str, 19 mag, 21 skl, 16 spd, 15 lck, 12 def, 20 res

55% hp, 40% str, 65% mag, 65% skl, 55% spd, 30% luck, 35% def, 50% res. 395 total for the curious.

57 base hit.

So, does anybody train Soren to A wind anyway?

Tornado:

25 mt, 147 hit.

31 mt against things vulnerable.

Elthunder:

26 mt

Also, no AS loss from anything but Bolting and Rexbolt. He should have 5 levels by then, though, right? Surely he can hit level 18 by endgame.

So:

Meteor gives 30 mt and 16 AS

Blizzard gives 27 mt and 16 AS, 35 mt against anything vulnerable

Bolting gives 32 mt and 15 AS

Chapter 24.

16 AS doubles 30 things in chapter 24 (out of 53/54, BK shouldn't count against him).

With Tornado he ORKOs 26 of them.

With Elthunder he ORKOs 28.

Meteor ORKOs the 29th, and its just the 30hp/17res sage that lives, since it has 12 AS. Bolting misses the double on 12 of the 30 he otherwise doubles.

Durability?

Against physicals

2HKOd by 30+ mt: 5 enemies

3HKOd by 24 mt to 29 mt: 12 enemies

4HKOd by 21 mt to 23 mt: 17 enemies

5HKOd by 19 mt to 20 mt: 15 enemies

6HKOd by 18 mt: 3 enemies

6HKOd by the sage with 26 mt.

Chapter 25, lets say he got a level on his own in chapter 24 and we gave him some bexp (just 286 bexp). Or maybe slightly more if he didn't level on his own.

35 hp, 12 str, 19 mag, 21 skl, 16 spd, 15 lck, 12 def, 20 res

36 hp, 12 str, 20 mag, 22 skl, 17 spd, 15 lck, 12 def, 21 res

I'm assuming nothing else procd.

13 out of 32 doubled.

No hope on the bishops, needs 36 mt. Takes just 1 damage from the elthunder sage and needs 31 mt to ORKO. Meteor covers it. Against Bastian the bishops ping and 7HKO, respectively.

As for the 10 physicals,

30 mt is needed to ORKO 3 warriors, 32 to ORKO 1, 31 to ORKO another.

2 fighters are ORKOd by Tornado.

2 halbs are ORKOd by 27 mt (elthunder)

1 needs 29 mt.

36/12

Against physicals

doubled by 1 swordmaster and 1 raven

2HKOd by 30+ mt: 3 enemies (1 has 30 mt and doesn't 2HKO on the 57.75% chance Bastian got def, hp irrelevant)

3HKOd by 24 mt to 29 mt: 15 enemies (swordmaster that doubles will 2RKO and threatens crit) (2 cats 4HKO if B procs def)

4HKOd by 21 mt to 23 mt: 9 enemies

5HKOd by 20 mt: 1 enemy

6HKOd by 18 mt to 19 mt: 1 enemiy

Assume level 16 for chapter 26

35 hp, 12 str, 19 mag, 21 skl, 16 spd, 15 lck, 12 def, 20 res

55% hp, 40% str, 65% mag, 65% skl, 55% spd, 30% luck, 35% def, 50% res. 395 total for the curious.

36.65 hp, 13.2 str, 20.95 mag, 22.95 skl, 17.65 spd, 15.9 luck, 13.05 def, 21.5 res.

I'll go with mag and skl and hp and luck but not spd or res. (he does have boosts to hp, mag, and lck for fixed mode)

37 hp, 13 str, 21 mag, 23 skl, 17 spd, 16 luck, 13 def, 21 res.

No AS loss from Bolting.

27/33 mt with Tornado, 28 with Elthunder. 29/37 with blizzard, 32/43 with meteor, 34 with bolting

25/29 mt with Elwind.

chapter 26

19 enemies doubled out of 50

Strongest warrior needs 33mt. (3 guys, one of which not doubled)

Weakest needs 31 mt. (2 guys)

Last one needs 32 mt.

Sages need 34 and 33 mt to ORKO.

Bishop (no way, 37mt)

Strongest general needs 34mt. (1)

Next needs 33mt. (1)

32 mt. (1)

31 mt. (1)

30 mt. (1)

1 wyvern lord: 28mt

2 wyvern lords: 29 mt

2 wyvern lords: 30 mt

1 wyvern lord: 31 mt

Durability?

37 hp/13 def/21 res

Bishops tink

Sages 7HKO

Bertram doubles and 3HKOs.

Against physicals

2HKOd by 32+ mt: 2 enemies (1 has a killer axe)

3HKOd by 26 mt to 31 mt: 26 enemies (including tigers) (only 1 swordmaster and no snipers)

4HKOd by 23 mt to 25 mt: 11 enemies

5HKOd by 21 mt to 22 mt: 3 enemies

I suppose maybe I should compare him to Lucia, but she starts at 36 hp and 10 def. He's got more concrete durability already, and 12 more res. At base she has 15 more avo then he does, and her spd/lck growths are higher, but she just has 15 str and I seriously don't think she's ORKO nearly as much as he is. Also, her 63 avo compared to his 48 avo is not nearly enough to offset the fact that most of her #HKOds are 2 lower than his. Also, he has a shot at some of the ranged tomes, and his normal attacks are 2 range, further emphasizing the durability difference between them. I don't see the need for a tier gap between them. Well, most of his doubling is in chapter 24, and he needs someone to pass him a weapon if we want anything more than Elwind on him, but still. And against laguz he may be doing more in one shot than Lucia in two (elfire, one wexp level from bolganone, meteor), though she does have two chances at critting in that case, and possible access to laguzslayers.

As for supports, Lucia has Ilyana, Janaff and Bastian

Bastian has Lucia, Mak, and Volke.

Volke is likely in use, and he has not other options. Also, it's 0/1/2.

Mak's other options are Astrid, Haar, and Bastian. Haar isn't exactly around much longer and if you use him he may go flying away at times, so Mak probably doesn't mind Bastian considering it is the same bonus anyway. Ilyana is full, Janaff is also a flier and probably not likely to be fielded. I think Bastian wins supports. At least, Mak and Volke don't have much choice in the matter and are both more likely to be fielded than Janaff and more likely to be open than Ilyana -> Zihark, Mordecai, Mia, even Gatrie.

Also, if Lucia and Bastian are both deployed then that's probably good for Bastian anyway since he's still winning concrete for a while anyway. She does have a better hp and def growth, but not by huge amounts.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Inui]

Is this really the most substantive thing that you could think to add to the tier list thread? You may as well have said "my cat's breath smells like cat food".

Are you capable of not being a dick?

Hey, is there a way to put people on ignore here? I've never done this at a forum before, but I'm thinking about it now.

Care to elaborate on the "clusterfuck of errors"? If it's about Rolf, lengthy discussions have already been had.

Your order:

Janaff

Shinon

Elincia

Rolf

Ulki

Nasir

Lucia

Ena

Now, I haven't played this game for a while and I'm going off of memory here, so forgive any errors...

Isn't Ulki nearly invincible due to his skill? Wouldn't that put him above Janaff? How is Shinon's not-needed earlygame stuff and horrible lategame performance without pumping BEXP into him better than Elincia flying and healing and having a stupid sword? Rolf can probably shoot one enemy per turn without killing them until Shinon joins and be stronger than him by then by a lot too, lol. Unless you think both are horrendous and what Shinon does early on is worth more than nothing. IIRC, Nasir was pretty good when he was around, so why is he so low?

[Interceptor]

I might as well repost the thing about Bastian here:

I'm not opposed Bastian moving out of his own tier or anything, and giving him Tornado and his choice of lategame supports is fine, but unless he's actually better than someone, anyone, I don't know how.

Hey, is there a way to put people on ignore here? I've never done this at a forum before, but I'm thinking about it now.

It's in user prefs, but since you already fundamentally ignore what people say anyways, I can't guarantee that you'll see a difference in your user experience.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Interceptor

[Inui]

It's in user prefs, but since you already fundamentally ignore what people say anyways, I can't guarantee that you'll see a difference in your user experience.

******** says (3:13 PM):

lol

trolling serenes is not half as fun as trolling FEW was

the level of arrogance there exceeds anything you've ever pulled

Hinagiku Katsura says (3:14 PM):

yeah, it's extremely gay and annoying.

I'm not alone in thinking you and others are just plain assholes for no real reason, lol. Exceeding my 2005-2008 insane arrogance and elitism is a fucking accomplishment. You people deserve a medal for it.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Inui

[HJ.]

Lol, I hate to say it, but it's true. I haven't exactly been the paragon of humility here either, not gonna pretend otherwise, but in some cases fighting fire with fire is too irresistible.

[dondon151]

Exceeding my 2005-2008 insane arrogance and elitism is a fucking accomplishment. You people deserve a medal for it.

To be fair, you came here and started it.

[Inui]

Wrong. I just said stuff about FE. It was others that started with insults and personal attacks. I don't do personal attacks. I debate about FE.

Anyways, Bastian out of fail tier makes sense to me.

[Florete]

Are you capable of not being a dick?

When he doesn't believe the person he's talking to is an idiot he's actually a pretty cool person.

Hey, is there a way to put people on ignore here? I've never done this at a forum before, but I'm thinking about it now.

Yeah, smash already did it with a few of us. Or he claimed he did.

How is Shinon's not-needed earlygame stuff and horrible lategame performance without pumping BEXP into him better than Elincia flying and healing and having a stupid sword?

"Not needed" is irrelevant. He's helpful, and that's what matters. Elincia heals for three maps where you can already have up to 5 other healers with Physics, and her combat sucks regardless of how good her weapon is (and it isn't good anyway, iirc).

Unless you think both are horrendous and what Shinon does early on is worth more than nothing.

It's not quite that simple, but this is the basic idea.

IIRC, Nasir was pretty good when he was around, so why is he so low?

I remember something about any team with Nasir having a good Ike, but I don't recall any details.

******** says (3:13 PM):

lol

trolling serenes is not half as fun as trolling FEW was

the level of arrogance there exceeds anything you've ever pulled

Hinagiku Katsura says (3:14 PM):

yeah, it's extremely gay and annoying.

I'm not alone in thinking you and others are just plain assholes for no real reason, lol. Exceeding my 2005-2008 insane arrogance and elitism is a fucking accomplishment. You people deserve a medal for it.

This is getting old. We know what you think of us.

[HJ.]

Shinon is useful early on? He sucks massively all the time and giving him kills provides much less Exp than letting one of your unpromoted, soon-to-become super good units the kills. Seems like the type you'd wanna avoid like the plague.

[Florete]

Shinon is useful early on? He sucks massively all the time and giving him kills provides much less Exp than letting one of your unpromoted, soon-to-become super good units the kills. Seems like the type you'd wanna avoid like the plague.

Shinon:

Base atk: Iron Bow - 15, Steel Bow - 18

Spd: 13

Enemies:

3x Bandit lv 2 (iron axe)
26 hp, 14 atk, 0 AS, 79 hit, 0 avo, 2 def, 0 res, 1 crit, 0 cev
1x Bandit lv 2 (hand axe)
28 hp, 13 atk, 0 AS, 59 hit, 0 avo, 4 def, 0 res, 1 crit, 0 cev
1x Bandit lv 3 (iron axe)
27 hp, 14 atk, 1 AS, 79 hit, 2 avo, 3 def, 0 res, 1 crit, 0 cev
1x Bandit lv 4 (iron axe)
30 hp, 15 atk, 81 hit, 3 AS, 6 avo, 5 def, 0 res, 1 crit, 0 cev
1x Bandit lv 5 (hand axe)
31 hp, 15 atk, 62 hit, 1 AS, 3 avo, 5 def, 1 res, 1 crit, 1 cev
1x Bandit lv 6 (steel axe)
32 hp, 19 atk, 71 hit, 0 AS, 1 avo, 6 def, 1 res, 1 crit, 1 cev 

I do not know what you think you're talking about.

[HJ.]

When I say he sucks early on, I don't mean because he's statistically weak, though for his level he certainly does have horrendous stats, I mean because he's not a worthy investment at all, so the Exp is much better spent on other units.

Though, looking at those utterly pitiful enemies, it seems his performance hardly even exceeds that of say, Boyd/Ike/Oscar, minor Crit aside. But randomly critting and stealing a kill is bad, if anything. So I still see no reason not to avoid him like the plague.

[Florete]

When I say he sucks early on, I don't mean because he's statistically weak, though for his level he certainly does have horrendous stats, I mean because he's not a worthy investment at all, so the Exp is much better spent on other units.

Though, looking at those utterly pitiful enemies, it seems his performance hardly even exceeds that of say, Boyd/Ike/Oscar, minor Crit aside. But randomly critting and stealing a kill is bad, if anything. So I still see no reason not to avoid him like the plague.

Obviously you do not know how easy it is to train units in this game. What do you think got Mia into Upper Mid? Using Shinon early on will not hurt you in the least.

[Inui]

When he doesn't believe the person he's talking to is an idiot he's actually a pretty cool person.

Me not playing FE 9 for like 4 years and being wrong about it compared to people that play it a lot certainly deems me an idiot. :)

"Not needed" is irrelevant. He's helpful, and that's what matters.

Elincia heals for three maps where you can already have up to 5 other healers with Physics, and her combat sucks regardless of how good her weapon is (and it isn't good anyway, iirc).

It's not quite that simple, but this is the basic idea.

Well, okay then. How is Elincia's sword not good btw? It seems pretty amazing to me. Defensive boosts + Brave Sword qualities + not breaking ever is pretty h4x.

I remember something about any team with Nasir having a good Ike, but I don't recall any details.

Well, yeah, a good Ike is needed to get Nasir, but how often is Ike bad and what does that have to do with Nasir's performance? Am I missing something here? I remember Nasir being kinda beastly when he was around, which is much more than can be said of some units even in the tier above him.

This is getting old. We know what you think of us.

Please don't lump yourself with the likes of Interceptor and his ilk. You are not part of the group that's horribly ghey and I actually like you, although you could stand to ruhlax a little I suppose.