FE9 Tier list v3

[Florete]

Just to clear up any suspicion, Janaff definitely transforms for turn 1. I've been using him on my draft run recently so I can say that with absolute certainty.

On chapter 26 there is plenty of hindering terrain around the sides of the map.

Who cares? It's very little and barely gets in the way even if I'm just trying to milk enemies for experience, which I definitely shouldn't need to at this point in the game. Elincia does shit all to help us clear the map.

While chapter 27 is indeed inside, reducing the advantage of fliers, the gardens and fountain in the endgame are indeed a notable advantage towards Elincia seeing as she is capable of flying around them. This both increases the ease she has of healing other units without physic staves, but allows for her to have better positioning.

Do you ignore everything? This is probably worth about as much as Janaff Shoving someone. You know, something Elincia can't even do but Janaff has been able to do for us for a while.

Besides, you people drool over movement. Elincia has a base of 9 move, while Mist has a base of 5 that jumps to 8 with promotion, meaning Elincia has a movement advantage over your other healers regardless.

Did you completely miss the Physic stuff? Even with Elincia's +1 move Mist has better healing range.

And honestly, the 'free up' argument is basically the exact same one for Janaff, so I don't see what's so desperate about it. Janaff's MT is so low that he will not be a valid fighter at all in the endgame. His only 'use' will be in freeing up a combatant by killing off already weakened units. Too be frank, even Shinon is a better unit to raise, seeing as he ends up with a possible 39 MT with a forged silver and has access to bows. Sure, he lacks a enemy phase, but I don't think people interested in an 'efficient' clear will want the enemies attacking a hawk who can't kill, especially if you have tough units who CAN kill on the map like Jill or Oscar. Elincia may not have much of a use as a relief healer, but Janaff's use is the exact same thing except for combat.

Look, no one is saying Janaff is great. Did you notice that he barely dodges being one of the bottom 10 units in the game? Yes, I have people that can replace Janaff, and in a normal efficient run I'd guess Janaff would not be used, but what the fuck can I say about Elincia? Healing is probably less useful at this point in this game than in fucking FE8. She's outclassed and completely irrelevant in healing, she can't kill for shit, and her durability is a joke. Compared to her competition, she's worthless. Janaff? Oh yeah, he sucks. There are plenty of better combat units. But at least he can do something valuable on occasion. He can stay alive, he can kill weak/weakened units, he can help with Rescuing over terrain and such (since there actually some of this stuff in his maps for his flight to mean something).

[Shadow Mir]

Heh... And here I was thinking my time arguing here was done. But hot damn, Snowy is desperate. I suppose I can entertain myself then.

On Shinon: Shinon starts with crap for bases. 24 atk with a Steel Bow forge is pathetic.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[Radiant Dragon]

Elincia is definitely not better than Janaff, but I think she should move up to the bottom of Lower-mid, below Tauroneo. Being able to use Rescue/Physic/Restore/Fortify in the last couple chapters has to be worth more than Shinon's early game chip, at least. Also, I don't understand why Mist keeps being brought up, since no one's trying to argue Elincia over Mist, and Mist is only in Upper-mid anyway, so she's not always in play.

[Balcerzak]

And honestly, the 'free up' argument is basically the exact same one for Janaff, so I don't see what's so desperate about it. Janaff's MT is so low that he will not be a valid fighter at all in the endgame. His only 'use' will be in freeing up a combatant by killing off already weakened units. Too be frank, even Shinon is a better unit to raise, seeing as he ends up with a possible 39 MT with a forged silver and has access to bows.

Janaff isn't good because of "Endgame Potential". In fact, no one gives a flying fuck about Endgame (aka Ike smushes Ashnard and nobody else matters.) All Janaff has to do is contribute on an acceptable level during the time he is around.

Capable of stealing from enemies, identical (if not slightly superior) combat to Janaff, longer join time, Mastery skill that isn't completely useless (if still not worth losing a paladin-Sol). Wait, you are claiming Volke's combat is terrible, but then arguing Janaff up? When Volke joins, he has 14 MT in chapter 10 and is VERY fast. I would think raising him up combat-wise to be easier due to his earlier join-time and his combat better due to it's early-gameness.

Volke 20/-- waiting for promotion. 17 Str, 19 Spd. Dagger? 4 Might

21 Net Attack at 19 AS

Janaff Base. 13 + 6 Str, 17 + 3 Spd. Beak 7 Might.

26 Net Attack at 20 AS.

This is a stomp in Janaffs favor, and this is assuming you managed to raise or BEXP Volke to said level.

Volke has to be 20/8 to match Janaff's Base damage until he gets access to a Stilleto. A Stilleto which is in a chest which may not even be worth looting compared to sending people to grab things like Energy Drop or Brave Sword.

So Janaff has at least a solid 4 chapters of undeniable combat superiority over Volke.

AVOID DOES NOT MATTER IN THIS STATEMENT! The point is that fliers take a lot of damage from bow units, as a result, Janaff will not get it! Why? BECAUSE EVERY FLIER WILL WANT IT! The whole thing relates back to THIS!

Are you an idiot? Of course avoid matters. If you're never getting hit by arrows (cf. Marcia) you don't care whether or not you have the FG. Exceptions granted for Ballista chapters, because they pack insane might and enough Accuracy to actually pose some semblance of a threat. Jill doesn't need FG because she can shrug off the damage, Marcia just dodges, I haven't used Tanith in forever so can't comment, but there's definitely room for Janaff to try to stake a claim on it.

Besides, who says Elincia is just healing measily 1 HP nicks? There will be times when you take far more damage. And hey, against Ashnard, Elincia does decrease the number of turns seeing as she can heal up units before/after they attack Ashnard to let them live longer and have more attacks. More attacks = faster Ashnard kill.

Lolwut? Who attacks Ashnard other than Ike?

Nice strawmanning. Thunder sages do possess the capability to kill them thanks to their critical rates and effective bonus. Other units who won't kill can at least push towards 2RKO/3RKO range. Janaff does single-digit damage. For a combat unit, this is VERY VERY BAD!

If you're fighting the dragons with intent to kill, rather than just to stall, you're taking too long.

You mean the 0 resources we need to give Elincia, not even EXP, to allow her to heal, followed by a potential two levels to allow for potential squishy killing? Okay then. Janaff enters into the endgame at level 10. His MT is 27 and he has 18 AS. Elincia can heal. I think that cliches who wins when we give Janaff as much resources as we need to give Elincia. I suppose he can have 4750 G (value of a physic and mend staff) to spend on Vulernaries or pimp out his beak or something.

Don't lie. Janaff at Level 10 has 21 AS. :/

[Narga_Rocks]

@Colonol M: there is stuff on the site actually:

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe9/transform.html

Actually, in fe10 you don't gain gauge on turn 1, but in fe9 you do. I skimmed through that page and it doesn't explicitly say that you gain on turn 1, so I can see how Colonel M could say it isn't on the site.

And that fountain in the final chapter cannot be traversed by fliers. There's a few things there that can't be crossed, anyway. I know this because I used some terrain to block ashy so I only had to use 3 characters, in the past.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Narga_Rocks

[-Cynthia-]

Elincia is definitely not better than Janaff, but I think she should move up to the bottom of Lower-mid, below Tauroneo. Being able to use Rescue/Physic/Restore/Fortify in the last couple chapters has to be worth more than Shinon's early game chip, at least. Also, I don't understand why Mist keeps being brought up, since no one's trying to argue Elincia over Mist, and Mist is only in Upper-mid anyway, so she's not always in play.

Is it really more useful? We have a limited number of earlygame units, so Shinon's chip can have a definite impact on turncount. Later in the game we are probably fielding another healer, so I'm not sure Elincia has a significant impact.

[Dark Sage]

On chapter 26 there is plenty of hindering terrain around the sides of the map. While chapter 27 is indeed inside, reducing the advantage of fliers, the gardens and fountain in the endgame are indeed a notable advantage towards Elincia seeing as she is capable of flying around them. This both increases the ease she has of healing other units without physic staves, but allows for her to have better positioning. Besides, you people drool over movement. Elincia has a base of 9 move, while Mist has a base of 5 that jumps to 8 with promotion, meaning Elincia has a movement advantage over your other healers regardless.

@Chapter 26's terrain: On the sides. Nowhere near the path of the gate, and the terrain there is about as troublesome as a rainy day.

@Endgame: Who gives a shit? It's over in 3 turns and you can't fly over the fountain anyway.

@Movement: Mist also has vastly superior Physic range over Elincia, so Elincia's 1 move advantage means jack.

And honestly, the 'free up' argument is basically the exact same one for Janaff, so I don't see what's so desperate about it. Janaff's MT is so low that he will not be a valid fighter at all in the endgame. His only 'use' will be in freeing up a combatant by killing off already weakened units. Too be frank, even Shinon is a better unit to raise, seeing as he ends up with a possible 39 MT with a forged silver and has access to bows. Sure, he lacks a enemy phase, but I don't think people interested in an 'efficient' clear will want the enemies attacking a hawk who can't kill, especially if you have tough units who CAN kill on the map like Jill or Oscar. Elincia may not have much of a use as a relief healer, but Janaff's use is the exact same thing except for combat.

1. Nobody cares about Endgame because of how short it is. Get that through your thick head.

2. Having an enemy phase is better than not having an enemy phase. Because you see, if you have an enemy phase and you don't ORKO, you can at least soften stuff up to kill later. Somebody like an archer doesn't do any damage, which is worse. There is a greater opportunity cost for an archer to get attacked than for a hawk to get attacked.

3. Elincia healing for not that much for barely any time and sucking at combat is worse than being a mediocre combatant for a few chapters and also being a ferry for longer too. And he doesn't require BEZP or the Demi Band either.

Don't see why that matters. Janaff won't be around, so by the time he joins, Mordi will indeed have the ability to be shifted for the entire map.

Um, no Mordi won't unless you give him the Demi Band, which kills his speed massively and his other stats and is put to much better use by Muarim, who is likely to be played.

I don't understand why she would have to use mend when a better alternative exists, but hey, that's why you people treasure Mist so much. Why doesn't she have fortify as an option? Why can't she use the 33 EXP staves? The Hammerine alone can grant her 40 EXP per use.

Are you an idiot? She'd have to use a mend because her magic sucks so bad that in order to heal a good amount in the first place, she'd need mend and her physic range sucks ass and doesn't heal that much anyway. And she can have her fortify...for exactly one chapter. Endgame. Yay? For 33 EXP staves, her range with them sucks, and her hit rate with them is pretty bad, so they're wasted on her. Finally, yes she can have Hammerene, but you'd have to be a fool to advocate using all these staves, Hammerene included, for the sheer purpose of giving EXP to a sucky healer who's only around for 3 maps.

Then wouldn't Elincia's higher movement be a stronger advantage? Or at least her ability to function as a stand-in Mist for the other side of the map be valuable?

In order for her to even be what you can consider a stand-in for Mist, she needs to share the support botting and physic range with her and Elincia drops the ball on both counts.

And what if the player doesn't use that ratio? What if they don't use that combination? What if they are looking for which units are better, not more efficient? Your tier list is inaccurate then.

You do realize characters are better because they're more efficient? This is an efficiency list after all in case you couldn't read.

I can also beat chapter 13 before Janaff unshifts at all. So what? And what if the player doesn't follow that strategy? You can't just assume that the player will follow a specific plan to beat a chapter rapidly. They could easily not know about it, and end up taking time (as well as seeking the ring) at which point Janaff's gauge (and Laguz in general) is a issue. Besides, once again, Janaff doesn't matter at all in this plan. He could be off in Tahiti for all Tanith, or the player using this strategy, cares for this level.

You do realize that there are multiple efficient ways of beating those maps efficiently. Also, we're assuming the player knows everything because thanks to the Internet, there's no reason for people to not know about seeking out the ring, and we're assuming the tier player is better than you are. For various plans, you want a rescuer and a ferry who can fly over terrain and Janaff can do that. He can aid Jill, Marica, and Tanith in rescuing chains to, for example, drop your Top Tier fighter off at the boss.

Basically, the fact you suck and have trouble with Janaff's gauge doesn't mean we do.

Considering that you seem to have ignored what I said, I don't see why I should even bother. Here, let me say it again. The point of the statement, the whole argument, is that every flier will want the FG due to the fact that they take a LOT of damage from any bow-hit. Jill, the tankiest flier, takes what is basically a quarter of her health bar in a single hit if she does get hit. I'm not arguing that Jill should move up or down, but that Janaff won't be getting the FG because every other flier wants and makes good use of it as well.

The point of the statement, the whole argument, is that every flier will want the FG due to the fact that they take a LOT of damage from any bow-hit.

AVOID DOES NOT MATTER IN THIS STATEMENT! The point is that fliers take a lot of damage from bow units, as a result, Janaff will not get it! Why? BECAUSE EVERY FLIER WILL WANT IT! The whole thing relates back to THIS!

Is your brain the size of a mosquito's reproductive organs? Of course avoid matters! It matters because Jill getting 5HKO'd only shows how epic a tank she is and since she can dodge, she can survive them better. Marcia dodges and doesn't face many problems with the Snipers because SHE'S NOT GETTING HIT TO BEGIN WITH! Tanith does have a stronger claim to it than Janaff, but the point with Jill is if she dodges the Snipers a decent amount of the time and only gets 5HKO'd, her durability there is not a problem. Thus the FG is useless on her. We might as well have set it on fire.

As for Elincia, Elincia is NOT an active combatant. She is a healer first and foremost. What little combat she might see will be select and limited. Unlike Janaff who's only advantage is his combat. Janaff will see combat constantly. He will be exposed to bows and wind magic on a regular basis. Like every other flier, these things hurt when they hit (and remember, anything that can go wrong, will, so they WILL hit, likely at the worst time too). Since other fliers want the guard and are better than Janaff, it is unlikely that he will get it (Jill, Marcia, and Tanith would all have to not be played for him to have a chance). This means that ranged damage is a very real concern to him.

Indeed. They are worth much more seeing as he is a high-damage hitter with solid defense in the early game and can be redeemed into a solid fighter for the late. Janaff can not.

And thus Mordi>Janaff. You might as well have said "my cat's breath smells like cat food."

4)So freaking what? If Mist is healing without physic staves, than she can easily pass out of range of Jill due to, you know, HEALING! If Jill is doing what fliers are doing for their goals, she will be doing things like flying up hillsides and such. Things that easily put Mist out of range. Sure, it may be possible to keep them together, but it is somehow easier to keep Jill and Mist together than it is to ensure Rhys doesn't get crubstomped? Or a sniper from being attacked on the enemy phase without hindering the team?

Erm, you do realize your fighters are in the FRONT ROW when they fight? Thus, Mist runs up and heals them with a Mend, they attack and reap the benefits of Mist supports. Saying Jill and Mist will never be in range is bullshit since you're ignoring they share similar move and even when Jill does fly out of range for a bit, she can still be in range of Mist a turn later due to move and canto with both of them. If you're curious, read the post earlier in the topic where Narga curbstomped you. He'd provide a far more enlightening argument on the matter than I would.

Besides, who says Elincia is just healing measily 1 HP nicks? There will be times when you take far more damage. And hey, against Ashnard, Elincia does decrease the number of turns seeing as she can heal up units before/after they attack Ashnard to let them live longer and have more attacks. More attacks = faster Ashnard kill.

People other than Ike will fight Ashnard now?

Nice strawmanning. Thunder sages do possess the capability to kill them thanks to their critical rates and effective bonus. Other units who won't kill can at least push towards 2RKO/3RKO range. Janaff does single-digit damage. For a combat unit, this is VERY VERY BAD!

Snowy, you're putting him up against the strongest units on the map and claiming that is an accurate combat evaluation on everything else. This is not acceptable.

Except this isn't true. Elincia is a viable healer for three chapters and certainly no worse than Mist is for those 3. She can be deployed without touching a single drop of EXP, which Tauro cannot do for his three chapters of use. And even if Tauro is deployed, he is unable to double unless resolved and his movement will kill him. At the least, Reyson will need to canto him multiple times just to let him keep up with the group (never mind fighting). Even if he does keep up, his lack of speed will make him a target for enemies since he will be unable to kill them in return. If you care so much for turn efficiency, I would think that a combat unit who is incapable of killing on the enemy phase would be a HUGE negative!

It is a negative which is why Big T is at the bottom of Low Mid. However the fact is, Taur with the Laguz Lance in that chapter once he's rescue dropped means he can ORKO even dragons, which is badass. I even gave you ways to keep him alive. The fact you apparently ignored them is not my fault. And I'm aware he's useless for most of his chapters. Fact is, Elincia is useless for all of her chapters and doesn't have the situational utility Taur posseses.

Lastly, she's no worse a rescue-bot than Janaff is; except Janaff is below-par as a fighter even when given absurd amounts of EXP to force an early cap. I don't think there is a non-Astrid/Tormod unit in the game that can net something along the lines of what it takes Janaff to tie with a thief who got to the level that Janaff is at much earlier.

Janaff has been doing his job longer and he doesn't suck at everything like Elincia does. Being a ferry and meh combatant>>Being a bad healer, horrid fighter and meh rescue-bot with half the availabitly.

That largely only matters if you focus on speed. Besides, if Mordi really is so bad because he can't even fight until the map is almost done, why is he in upper mid? Clearly he has some good use during that time.

Smite for one and he makes the best use of Laguz Stones early on, plus chapters take longer.

Why is it that people intentionally ignore key points I make in my statements to counter things that I didn't say? I am only talking about soft units, like mages and bishops. I do not think Elincia will be fighting things like paladins. HOWEVER! Against these units that Elincia struggles against, Janaff is an outright inferior combatant compared to the vast majority of the team. For Elincia, being able to kill mages and healers is a bonus in addition to being a superior Mist (at least if you feel Mist's advantage is in her being able to heal without physic staves) for three chapters. For Janaff, fighting is his whole world! If he can't fight, he's a hindrance! Elincia can heal, and will be doing so mainly. Janaff will be throwing worthless damage against units while taking kills and EXP from the team to do so when Volke is a better choice to use than him for combat. FREAKING VOLKE!

Balcerzak already disproved your Volke bullshit, so I won't go further with it. Anyway I'll humor you and say, OK, Elincia can ORKO the bishops. Now for sages. There are a grand total of 2 on the map. One of them she ORKO's with Amiti. The other she falls short of ORKOing. Janaff's 27 MT ORKO's all of them. There's simply not enough squishy enemies in her base chapter. For the next chapter, they also both kill squishies, but they make up around 10% of the enemies there.

Good thing I'm not talking about Elincia's supports then, eh?

You can't emulate Mist without emulating the supports.

My problem with Mists supports is this. Mist is a healer. The reason people consider her superior to Rhys is because she can rush with her movement to heal using mend instead of using a physic. Doing this, however, means she needs to run every which way in order to heal various units. Meanwhile, Jill is a flier, and as such, needs to do things that involve flying over various pieces of terrain. THIS IS ESPECIALLY TRUE IF YOU ARE TRYING FOR LOW TURN COUNTS! So somehow, the player is capable of keeping Mist and Jill together, without sacrificing healing or turn counts, and going for a minimum turn count; BUT is incapable of protecting mages, healers, and snipers from being attacked?

Refer to the post where Narga kicked your ass to find a rebuttal to your moronic rant on the Elincia debate. I don't want to have to keep repeating stuff already said.

Plus, once again, if Mordi (Mist's other main support) doesn't transform until after turn 5 and isn't useful until then, that means that, at the least, for five turns Mist's other support is basically useless.

Ok, so that's one support down. Good thing she still has Jill, Titania and Boyd. Or if you keep insisting on sandbagging Mist out of the Jill support, she can get A Titania, B Boyd. There. Problem solved.

Now get off my lawn.

Like when? When would Rhys's superior physic staff range fail to heal a unit that Mist's movement would be able to heal? I cannot think of a single instance in the game when this would happen. I can, however, think of slews of the opposite example. Why is Mist's durability an issue? If the player is competent, then they won't EVER be letting their healers be attacked. It's just a bad idea. A competent tactician knows how to use use the strength of one unit to cover the weaknesses of others to get a stronger team overall.

Oh. My. God.

First of all, Rhys only has the advantage of Physic range for 3 TURNS! 3! By then, Mist beats him thanks to move! Second of all! Mist having durability allows me to be more flexible with strategies, and I don't have to waste time protecting her like I do with Rhys. The fact you cannot see the value of having a healer whom we don't have to protect and can keep up with us completely baffles me. And since she has high movement and since she has the durability to use it, then we can be more free in how we move and attack! Any competent player would see this and only a moron would say that a slower, less durable healer with less move is somehow better than a mounted, fast, durable healer.

You constantly bitch about how inflexible we are with chapter completion strategies but Rhys's total lack of durability is actually LIMITING our flexibility. How do you not see this?!

Besides, this tier lost any credibility towards flexibility when it apparently became focused on LTC and using specific strategies to beat chapters much faster and in ways a player who didn't know the strategies would be capable of knowing.

Is your head harder than Wolverine's adamantium laced head? There are multiple ways of beating chapters efficiently. The fact you apparently can't see them doesn't mean we have to conform to your standards.

Mia has the STR to use the RS when it comes along later and isn't useless after it breaks. Not to mention she can kill them in one hit thanks to criticals, making her kill count with it much higher. Advantage; Mia X2.

Again, less move and no canto means less exposure to enemies and opportunities to kill them. Also, when were we talking about the RS anyway?

Except whenever, in the past, I have suggested that she even look in the general direction of a STR/DEF band, I've gotten hissyfits thrown about how other units use it better. Fair enough I say. No unit can use the mage band better then Mia. And hey, the mage band isn't even needed. The dusts can do the same job.

Who uses the mage band better than Mia. Oh I don't know, A MAGE! Like Ilyana? Tormod? Who use the magic stat for ALL their weapons and in the case of a sealed Ilyana, can boost how much HP she heals with a staff? How is that somehow not making better use of the mage band?

Also a dust is more costly than two arms scrolls combined. You fail at opportunity cost forever.

Flight and canto are irrelevant to how well Tanith actually uses the sword. Also, Mia has 9 MAG at 20/5 with the band compared to Tanith's base of 10. Oh. And Mia has +ATT supports. Advantage: Mia. Heck, even without the dusts, Mia is getting +3 attack from a B Rhys, B Ilyana at this point, and gets a A Rhys come chapter 19. So a 20/5 Mia doesn't need resources either to tie a base Tanith.

Canto and flight are relevant because thanks to them, she uses the sword more often and sees more use with it. She has enough move to reach wyverns for example and ORKO them all with the SS on the player phase often. The fact i

Good thing she gets +2 magic when she promotes then, eh?

If you actually read what I typed and did the math, you would see that I did take that into account.

Mia's Bexp is used for combat though, so even after the SS breaks, it's useful. Mist's is for healing, so once the SS is gone... well... It's pretty useless except for physic stave range. Oh wait; we were using Mist because of how good she was without the physic staves! So it doesn't matter! Advantage: Mia!

Mia's BEXP is only used for combat. Mist's is for healing AND combat, so once the SS is gone, she can still heal for a decent amount and gets Physic range too, thus doing more with the BEXP. Advantage: Mist! You are essentially trying to argue 1>2. Stop it.

Also WTH at your argument about why we're using Mist. If you're going to repeat an argument, repeat the RIGHT argument.

Not only does having Mist do this cost us a healer, but Mia can critical, and kill with vantage as well. Mist can only afford to net 12 kills before the SS breaks, which is about 3-5 kills per chapter or so. Not only is Mia's kill rate higher because of critical rates (and wrath later on), but she isn't useless once the SS has run its course and the Hammerine hasn't come along yet. And once again, Canto and movement have 0 effect on who actually uses the sword better.

You can heal plenty while still having her fight. She reached S for both around the same time. It's not hard. Restart map, have someone else kill what I let her kill the first time. S for staves. Besides, I didn't care all that much about her hitting S since I had Rhys, too (Mia support). It wasn't important enough to pay attention to. Annoyance has varying levels.

Mist gets more combat than a actual combat unit despite being able to only get an average of 3-5 kills per chapter and being useless once it inevitably breaks AND being the groups main healer?

I did actually suggest trading it for something else like a forge when she's done using it for the Player phase so she doesn't use as many uses. Or I can have her heal and still keep it for enemy phase use. Why are you suggesting we must have Mist either always attack and always heal. Sometimes, she doesn't need to heal and she can attack with it. Sometimes she does and she doesn't use it. For your statement regarding seeing more combat than actual combat units, paladins exist and will probably kill stuff before your some of your foot units to arrive.

I'm not complaining that she needs to use the hammerene. I'm complaining that the staff doesn't even exist until later on, meaning until it comes, she is highly limited in her kills (3-5 per chapter). I'm also complaining that she lacks combat ability outside of the SS. The RS is too heavy for her and her combat ability with swords is lack-luster at best otherwise. Even at 20/20 with full attack supports (Boyd/Mordi), she only has 21 Attack before the weapon. That is not good. At least Mia has her attack supports to help her get past 21.

Um, you do realize RS uses magic to attack right? That does mean Mist will have higher attack with it than 21. Also about the SS uses concern, who honestly cares? For example, Mia, who you love to hype about, doesn't even want to SS particularly when she's got Steel Blades and forges available to her, so her saving uses isn't important since we're not giving it to her because it doesn't make a huge impact on her offense performance. On somebody like Mist, it does give her a much more noticeable boost and thus, we can justify her taking it and using it sometimes. And again, you can sometimes trade it out for a forge. I mean for the most part, Tanith is pretty much doritoes for the SS anyway and with her, we're mostly using it to take out wyverns quicker. Mist getting a "limited amount of kills" with it is about as troublesome as a rainy day since Mia isn't getting that much more uses out of it thanks to move issues.

The problem is that 'efficiency' has become synonymous with 'turn count'. To me, a good unit is one who preforms well under a multitude of strategies that can apply to multiple players and playstyles. Not just one obsessed with beating the game in a rapid manner. You can still make a tier without considering things like 'well if we preform a very specific strategy on this chapter with these units, we can beat the game with a few less turns; so those units should move up' and still have it be clear.

@Int, Narga and Colonel M: Hey guys? Should I even bother?

The problem is that, quite often, that one person is RIGHT. Just having the masses agree with you means diddly squat as they can easily be wrong. Ruling by public opinion results, often, in a mass overwhelming the minor regardless of truth. Truth knows no side, and it should never be determined by the masses.

Oh god. This is just too good an opportunity to pass up. Cue an alteration of Int's quote, with the alteration being replacing Smash's name with Snowy's:

Don't be silly, Snowy. You're not wrong because nobody is agreeing with you, you're wrong because your points are weak and poorly supported. The fact that people disagree with you is a symptom of being wrong, not the cause or the proof of it. Canary in the coal mine, so to speak.

And Janaff's combat is inferior to practically every other unit in the entire game. A thief can potentially beat him at a much lower level for crying out loud! Not only is Janaff's combat equally useless to Elincia's, it's actually harmful to the team (enemy phase units) and he can't offer anything back; unlike Elincia who heals mainly and won't be focusing on combat.

Except Elincia sucks even at healing.

Then he has to deal with the fact that he runs the risk of shifting out if the chapter drags on too long.

You know Snowy, you and other people often wonder why tier people are so hostile. Maybe it's because you're essentially pissing in their bowl of cornflakes with your sneering at efficiency IN A TIER LIST ABOUT EFFICIENCY! I don't mind you not liking efficiency lists and I don't mind people not liking tier lists at all. I do mind you barging in here, making all sorts of ridiculous arguments, and ridiculing the entire point of this list. If you don't like this list and you know we're not going to change it's premise based on one person, why are you still here?

The door is that way sir.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Dark Sage

[RNG Princess]

Is it really more useful? We have a limited number of earlygame units, so Shinon's chip can have a definite impact on turncount. Later in the game we are probably fielding another healer, so I'm not sure Elincia has a significant impact.

Unless theres a way to OHKO/ORKO Ashnard, Elincia would be really helpful using rescue staff she is the only flying staff user otherwise maybe not ^^'.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Shadow Mir]

Unless theres a way to OHKO/ORKO Ashnard, Elincia would be really helpful using rescue staff she is the only flying staff user otherwise maybe not ^^'.

I dunno... She'd need a massive BEXP dump seeing as her Mag is pretty poor to start out...

[Radiant Dragon]

Is it really more useful? We have a limited number of earlygame units, so Shinon's chip can have a definite impact on turncount. Later in the game we are probably fielding another healer, so I'm not sure Elincia has a significant impact.

Maybe I'm just used to draft playthroughs, but I don't believe Shinon actually saves any turns except maybe in Ch. 3 and Ch. 7. Plus, only 3 units in the game will ever be able to use those high rank staves: Rhys, Mist and Elincia. Rhys and Mist are only Upper Mid (barely, in Rhys' case), so they are not guaranteed to be in play. In addition, being able to have multiple Rescue/Physic users is always better than only one, or you could have one use Rescue and the other use Hammerne on it on the same turn. Or something. Besides, Elincia's magic may be poor to start out with, but she has an 80% growth in the stat, so she only needs a couple of levels.

Edit: About the Mist/Jill support, I never understood the point of supporting a flyer with a non-flyer in this game, since there's so much terrain that needs to be flown over.

13: Jill can move between ship easier than most everyone, so that should be taken advantage of. They might be able to use the support in the middle of the chapter, though.

14: There's rivers to be flown over, but it shouldn't be hard to keep them together. However, this chapter is so short it's not a big deal.

15: Jill is ferrying a Laguz to Stefan while Marcia is taking down Muarim (or the other way around, I suppose), plus we don't want to fight the Laguz anyway.

16: If Mist is promoted by now, sure. But I doubt it.

17: Only in part 3 can they really make use of the support. Maybe in part 1 if Mist is promoted.

18: There's no terrain here except the trees to the east so they're fine here.

19: Jill can take out the ballista Archers shooting down the Ravens, but this map is so short it really doesn't matter either way.

20: Jill can fly over the mountain to wreak havoc among her father's troops. Mist has to take the long way around.

21: Again, Jill can fly and ferry people over the canals while Mist has to go around.

22: Are we 1-turning this, or getting some treasure and Physics? Either way, mounted units aren't exactly ideal in this map.

23: Jill has to stay behind to recruit Haar, while Mist should be moving forward healing the main group.

24: Jill has the flexibility to reach the west part of the map, but I suppose there's nothing keeping her from going north.

25: No. Mist has 4 move and Jill should be charging the top.

26: They should work fine here.

27: Here as well, unless they go different directions (one to the Resolve scroll, the other to the Arrive square).

28: Jill can ferry Ike over to the east side of the map, while Mist has to go around the trees.

Endgame: Not a big deal either way, since they should be working together to get Ike to the top of the map.

So... 14, maybe 16, part of 17, 18, maybe 19, maybe 24, 26, 27 and Endgame. Not exactly the Holy Grail of supports.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[Zkirsche]

About the Mist/Jill support, I never understood the point of supporting a flyer with a non-flyer in this game, since there's so much terrain that needs to be flown over.

Is there a better supprot for her? Its use is situation, yes, but its her best support and can at least help her some of the time.

Jill has to stay behind to recruit Haar

Only if we're using him.

[Anouleth]

Actually, in fe10 you don't gain gauge on turn 1, but in fe9 you do. I skimmed through that page and it doesn't explicitly say that you gain on turn 1, so I can see how Colonel M could say it isn't on the site.

And that fountain in the final chapter cannot be traversed by fliers. There's a few things there that can't be crossed, anyway. I know this because I used some terrain to block ashy so I only had to use 3 characters, in the past.

You can still cross the 'walls' around the fountain, though. That's probably what he meant.

[Radiant Dragon]

Is there a better supprot for her? Its use is situation, yes, but its her best support and can at least help her some of the time.

Personally, I think Titania is Mist's best support option, since they share movement type after Mist promotes.

Only if we're using him.

Are we really put Haar is some kind of 'not recruited' tier just so Jill and Mist can make use of their support for one chapter? Plus, Brave Axe.

[Zkirsche]

Personally, I think Titania is Mist's best support option, since they share movement type after Mist promotes.

Then 'B' Jill. Or just 'B' Mordy and Jill gets nothing and is weaker because of it.

Are we really put Haar is some kind of 'not recruited' tier just so Jill and Mist can make use of their support for one chapter? Plus, Brave Axe.

We're not using him every playthrough, surely.

And as for the brave axe, I'd rather have Jill attack on the front lines as she's one of our best units.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Kevin

[Radiant Dragon]

Then 'B' Jill. Or just 'B' Mordy and Jill gets nothing and is weaker because of it.

I would give the support to Jill simply because Jill has no other good options, but the fact remains that it's still almost useless, since in the chapters where Jill's contributions are most relevant (exercising her flying utility) are the ones where Mist can not be near Jill. However, I will admit that when the enemies get tougher in later chapters, that's also when it's easiest to keep them together.

We're not using him every playthrough, surely.

And as for the brave axe, I'd rather have Jill attack on the front lines as she's one of our best units.

We're not using Jill every playthrough either. That doesn't mean we can assume she's not recruited.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[Zkirsche]

We're not using Jill every playthrough either. That doesn't mean we can assume she's not recruited.

The chance that we're using Jill =/= the chance that we're using Haar.

[Radiant Dragon]

The chance that we're using Jill =/= the chance that we're using Haar.

That's true, but the chance is still there. What I want to know is, what's the point of this argument? The chance of anyone on this list getting put into a 'Not Recruited' tier is little to none.

[Zkirsche]

When did I ask for a non-recruitment tier?

[Colonel M]

I got FE9 and FE10 gauge mixed up like Narga said (I did clear it up with kirsche btw). Sorry about screwing that up.

[Anouleth]

I think Sothe and Volke should go down. They're both awful in combat, and their sole claim to fame is opening a few chests (Chest Keys can largely cover every important item in the game). The only thing they can really make claim to is the Physic and Boots in Chapter 15, but is that really worth being in Upper Mid and King of Mid over?

[Florete]

I think Sothe and Volke should go down. They're both awful in combat, and their sole claim to fame is opening a few chests (Chest Keys can largely cover every important item in the game). The only thing they can really make claim to is the Physic and Boots in Chapter 15, but is that really worth being in Upper Mid and King of Mid over?

I agree with them going down, but they can also make clearing Ch 13 faster because you need to open all the chests, and you might not want to waste a bunch of Chest Keys there.

[Anouleth]

I agree with them going down, but they can also make clearing Ch 13 faster because you need to open all the chests, and you might not want to waste a bunch of Chest Keys there.

How fast is it to beat Chapter 13 early? I know it's possible, but how many turns does it take, and is it possible with a reasonable team?

As for opening all the chests, some of them are pretty worthless:

Killer Bow

Laguz Axe

Longsword

Elfire

Occult

Energy Drop

Speedwings

The Energy Drop, Speedwings, and Laguz Axe are all obviously useful. But the Killer Bow? The Longsword? The Elfire? They can gather dust.

[Radiant Dragon]

Chapter 13 will end if it's at least turn 7 and the enemy is routed, which requires opening all of the chests so the Ravens will retreat. Besides, the Killer Bow could be nice for Astrid, and the Occult can teach Sol to one of our Paladins.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[Florete]

How fast is it to beat Chapter 13 early? I know it's possible, but how many turns does it take, and is it possible with a reasonable team?

As RD said, 7 turns minimum. It is definitely possible with a reasonable team if I can do it with my draft team of Ike, Titania, Oscar, Soren, Lethe, Kieran, Brom, and Sothe with minimal BEXP (none in the cases of Titania and Lethe) in 8 turns.

As for opening all the chests, some of them are pretty worthless:

Killer Bow

Laguz Axe

Longsword

Elfire

Occult

Energy Drop

Speedwings

The Energy Drop, Speedwings, and Laguz Axe are all obviously useful. But the Killer Bow? The Longsword? The Elfire? They can gather dust.

Exactly why you don't want to be wasting your Chest Keys on them.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Anouleth]

As RD said, 7 turns minimum. It is definitely possible with a reasonable team if I can do it with my draft team of Ike, Titania, Oscar, Soren, Lethe, Kieran, Brom, and Sothe with minimal BEXP (none in the cases of Titania and Lethe) in 8 turns.

Exactly why you don't want to be wasting your Chest Keys on them.

If it's the case that you need to open these chests in order to successfully rout and save six turns, I would consider that a fine use of a chest key. And I would much rather be opening the chests with a nice 8/9 Canto move unit that has durability and combat to their name than Sothe or Volke. The downside is not having more chest keys on hand later on, and having to try and get the Keys in Chapter 8.