FE7 tier list, HHM Ranked

[CATS]

I think Int's arguments are generally solid.

orly? How about this one?

http://fegenesis.shaym.in/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=45&start=20

"Chainey hogs Exp?" "Chainey doesn't have a top tier performance because he can't use the forges that Barst/Shiida are using?"

Looks pretty similar to what PB described. Illogical favoritism (or in this case anti-favoritism against a certain unit). Ofcourse Chainey is much worse than Barst if Barst is given a 15000G forge which is denied to Chainey, and that's also the very definition of favoritism.

I have never seen Int flame anyone unprovoked. Rather, he makes subtle hints that the opposition's intelligence level is below average, but generally not until whoever he is talking to made it clear that he's...Doing It Wrong?

I guess that depends on your definition of flaming. Inui made a short post in the FE9 topic and Int gives him this in response:

"Is this really the most substantive thing that you could think to add to the tier list thread? You may as well have said "my cat's breath smells like cat food"."

Completely unnecessary flaming/harassment.

Even if he is overly rude though, I do not think he stifles discussion at all in any way. If anything stifles discussions, it's Inui posts like "this unit so bad, lol" or "man I wish Reikken waz here, he is a God".

Inui worshiping the FE Gods in every post is slightly annoying (or humorous imo) but it's also entirely harmless and unrelated to the actual discussion taking place. lol @ suggesting it's worse than someone who's being overly rude.

If Paperblade's description of Int's behavior is accurate (and though I don't know the details since I didn't read the arguments, I'm inclined to side with him based on what I've seen elsewhere, such as the above), then ofcourse Int is stifling discussion. Ofcourse it's discouraging if you are aware of the fact that you have a perfectly logical argument, or that the other person's is blatantly illogical, and yet no progress is made due to plain stubbornness or stupidity (difficult to tell which one it is in most cases). Why do you think I quit posting on FEG?

Edited February 14, 2010 by CATS

[Mekkah]

orly? How about this one?

http://fegenesis.sha...9&t=45&start=20

"Chainey hogs Exp?"

Other than the fact that I agree that Chainey not being able to improve with the EXP you'd give him is worse than being able to improve, I don't like any sorts of "EXP hogging argument." The main point of Int's, though, is that Chainey gives you nothing you don't already have (in addition to having an availability deficit).

"Chainey doesn't have a top tier performance because he can't use the forges that Barst/Shiida are using?"

He can't use them at the same time they're using them (a.k.a. he doesn't clone them), unless you do trade chains. I don't see Int saying anywhere that "one gets it while the other doesn't". He's saying that adding Chainey to an army which contains Shiida + forge doesn't give me Shiida + forge + Shiida + forge.

And add to that, the other issues of Chainey (non-full hp, etc).

I think Chainey is probably the thing I disagree with him the most, in fact.

I guess that depends on your definition of flaming. Inui made a short post in the FE9 topic and Int gives him this in response:

"Is this really the most substantive thing that you could think to add to the tier list thread? You may as well have said "my cat's breath smells like cat food"."

Completely unnecessary flaming/harassment.

I think that's pretty tame. He might as well have said "you're not adding anything to the discussion".

Inui worshiping the FE Gods in every post is slightly annoying (or humorous imo) but it's also entirely harmless and unrelated to the actual discussion taking place. lol @ suggesting it's worse than someone who's being overly rude.

I could only interpret it as humorous if Inui* didn't seem so serious every time doing it, or didn't use them as back-up for his "arguments". "Harmless", yes, I suppose it is harmless...it's the internet.

If Paperblade's description of Int's behavior is accurate (and though I don't know the details since I didn't read the arguments, I'm inclined to side with him based on what I've seen elsewhere, such as the above), then ofcourse Int is stifling discussion. Ofcourse it's discouraging if you are aware of the fact that you have a perfectly logical argument, or that the other person's is blatantly illogical, and yet no progress is made due to plain stubbornness or stupidity (difficult to tell which one it is in most cases). Why do you think I quit posting on FEG?

I generally think there is logic on both sides. You seem to imply Int stifles discussion by causing people not to respond anymore, but isn't it really your/pb/smash's decision? If you find Inui*'s off-topicness humorous and harmless, then I don't see why you can't ignore Int's additions.

* Horio

[Interceptor]

"Chainey hogs Exp?" "Chainey doesn't have a top tier performance because he can't use the forges that Barst/Shiida are using?"

What is it with the people in this thread and the non-quote quotes? Is there some debating cult that encourages people to wrap any ridiculous statement they feel like in quotation marks, to lend it credence that it wouldn't get it its own? Neither of those two citations accurately represent my position.

The argument against Xane is straightforward, if a bit complex in the details, because of his unique ability. You linked the relevant thread, and since you didn't bother to bring over any real arguments, I won't either. Anyone who cares should go read it.

[...]definition of favoritism.

Efficient play is about favoritism, because even distribution of resources is not efficient. You want to make an argument in an efficiency tier list, make it using things like opportunity cost and economic profit or what have you. This is the real reason that Xane struggles on the tier list, because of the cost of actually applying his strengths, not because he can't get something he wants.

a short post in the FE9 topic

Let's be clear about the contents of this "short post":

- FE9 tier list looks like Reikken's, so he agrees with it

- Tauroneo is too low

- "low tier is a clusterfuck of errors"

Nary a useful tidbit. No justification for T being too low. Not even a whiff of a description of an error in Low, god forbid an actually reason why it's an error.

My conclusion: as useful for the list as any other banal observation, such as one made by Ralph Wiggum. I could have told everyone that I liked blueberry pancakes, and made exactly the same contribution. A win for breakfast aficionados, to be sure, but not useful for much else, certainly not FE tiering.

[Inui]

Inui, post in the other thread. This one will be locked soon.

LOL

So, the discussion about Serra's potential level got me interested. I went and did a playthrough, mostly to see just how high I could get her, and got some results that support CATS's estimates. I've made a youtube playlist of the run here, if you wish to take a gander, Cap'n Crunch (or any other interested parties.)

S ranked, Serra at 10.93. Obviously an atypically high value, but I wouldn't think a Serra in the range of level 9.5 is implausible, though still slightly high. I'd have no issue with her at an even 9 at all.

If you need help recording things from VBA, give me a pmail and I'll see if I can help you figure it out.

Good stuff, d00d.

Even if he is overly rude though, I do not think he stifles discussion at all in any way. If anything stifles discussions, it's Inui posts like "this unit so bad, lol" or "man I wish Reikken waz here, he is a God".

So, being overly rude and downright flaming people is better than me saying "Reikken is cool and I agree with him"? What planet do you live on? I know Europe is fucking weird, but come on...

I'm also going to concur with Mekkah on Inui's posts. Every time I see another post fangirling CATS/Reikken without any actual content (protip: I don't actually care what Reikken's tier list is and how much the one here concurs with it), I die a little inside.

Cry more.

orly? How about this one?

http://fegenesis.shaym.in/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=45&start=20

"Chainey hogs Exp?" "Chainey doesn't have a top tier performance because he can't use the forges that Barst/Shiida are using?"

Looks pretty similar to what PB described. Illogical favoritism (or in this case anti-favoritism against a certain unit). Ofcourse Chainey is much worse than Barst if Barst is given a 15000G forge which is denied to Chainey, and that's also the very definition of favoritism.

I guess that depends on your definition of flaming. Inui made a short post in the FE9 topic and Int gives him this in response:

"Is this really the most substantive thing that you could think to add to the tier list thread? You may as well have said "my cat's breath smells like cat food"."

Completely unnecessary flaming/harassment.

Inui worshiping the FE Gods in every post is slightly annoying (or humorous imo) but it's also entirely harmless and unrelated to the actual discussion taking place. lol @ suggesting it's worse than someone who's being overly rude.

If Paperblade's description of Int's behavior is accurate (and though I don't know the details since I didn't read the arguments, I'm inclined to side with him based on what I've seen elsewhere, such as the above), then ofcourse Int is stifling discussion. Ofcourse it's discouraging if you are aware of the fact that you have a perfectly logical argument, or that the other person's is blatantly illogical, and yet no progress is made due to plain stubbornness or stupidity (difficult to tell which one it is in most cases). Why do you think I quit posting on FEG?

qft

[CATS]

Other than the fact that I agree that Chainey not being able to improve with the EXP you'd give him is worse than being able to improve, I don't like any sorts of "EXP hogging argument." The main point of Int's, though, is that Chainey gives you nothing you don't already have (in addition to having an availability deficit).

So availability makes Navarre > Chainey? If so, then why is Pent above Canas or Harken above Dorcas?

Chainey gives you "nothing you don't already have," but Navarre does?

He can't use them at the same time they're using them (a.k.a. he doesn't clone them), unless you do trade chains. I don't see Int saying anywhere that "one gets it while the other doesn't". He's saying that adding Chainey to an army which contains Shiida + forge doesn't give me Shiida + forge + Shiida + forge.

How is it not favoritism to compare two units and assume that one of them is given much less access to a resource that both are perfectly capable of using? I suppose this isn't really relevant to something like Chainey vs Navarre (unless you think Navarre should have a forge), but it seems blatantly inconsistent to claim that Chainey can't give you the performance of "unit + forge" when in fact he is perfectly capable of using the exact same forge. Even if you give it to Shiida only while actually playing the game, that doesn't change the fact that Chainey certainly can use it and has the potential to achieve the same performance as Shiida when using it (aside from other issues like transformation and etc).

And add to that, the other issues of Chainey (non-full hp, etc).

Indeed, some of his points were relevant. But, Exp hogging? srsly?

I think that's pretty tame. He might as well have said "you're not adding anything to the discussion".

So you don't think that's even a little bit derogatory and abrasive? If he had actually said "You're not adding anything to the discussion," that would be one thing, but that's not how he phrased it at all.

I generally think there is logic on both sides. You seem to imply Int stifles discussion by causing people not to respond anymore, but isn't it really your/pb/smash's decision?

It's our decision and I think it makes more sense than continuing to respond in a case where you're clearly up against unassailable stubbornness (I'll just assume that it's not stupidity, I guess). Note that the stubbornness is what makes this a better decision than continuing to argue when the other side will not budge regardless of the quality of your arguments.

If you find Inui*'s off-topicness humorous and harmless, then I don't see why you can't ignore Int's additions.

Off-topic is one thing. It's off-topic; it has no relevance to the discussions at hand. Int's actually making arguments and debating, which is very different from Inui coming into a topic and just co-signing my posts. Also note that in each case cited his arguments are accepted and reflected in the tier list positions, basically everyone else saying that he is "right." Naturally it's discouraging to see that others present have the same attitude that he does and this lends strong support to the notion that no progress will be made regardless of the quality of one's arguments.

As an aside, it's also illogical to give a single person (for example SDS in the FEG FE11 list) the power to override arguments whenever they want to because they "control" the list. Why do you have someone that "owns" a tier list? The very concept doesn't make sense. Anyways, knowing that your arguments will get you nowhere if the tier list OP disagrees with them is also pretty discouraging.

I've never seen anyone as adamant or persistent about this issue as PB and smash are, and they've conceded arguments/gotten over it/etc with other issues in the past, it's not like they do this for every single thing anyone's ever disagreed with them about. I find it difficult to believe that something could receive this much attention from them if they're completely in the wrong. What I've seen in Int's FE11 arguments is very similar to what smash/PB describe, and obviously I have similar protests to it, so I'm strongly inclined to believe that they have a point.

Edited February 14, 2010 by CATS

[Interceptor]

Chainey gives you "nothing you don't already have," but Navarre does?

Navarre gives you early C Swords (Armorslayer), and comes at a time when you are still growing your army. He's slower than Cain, and has an even harder time getting to Ridersbane, but Cain's a high bar to clear in terms of performance for Navarre.

One of the (many) points of mine that you disregarded: Xane's arrival after your army is already badass is a real problem for giving him something to do. You can't get to Xane efficiently without an army that can fight thusly. There is a massive gap of like 16 chapters where Navarre exists and Xane does not.

Xane is not an ordinary lategame filler that can assume the responsibilities of some particular niche or two, he is a unit that -- by virtue of the fact that he can only copy units that already exist -- can only contribute something that you already have. This really isn't a deep point, but if you can't see why that diminishes his value over a unit that could do something that you AREN'T already doing, you haven't given it enough thought yet.

How is it not favoritism to compare two units and assume that one of them is given much less access to a resource that both are perfectly capable of using?

So, who actually said that? I just said that Xane would never dig out of the hole that multiple forges would give him (which is what he needs to maximally leverage his vaunted flexibility), and even a single forge is dubious depending upon what it is. Understand that the epic forges in this game all appear in earlygame (Wing Spear, Iron Bow, Hammer, etc), when there are many enemies ahead that will require them for efficient clears. By the time Xane shows up, you're already getting close to Hammerne.

So just like back then, you still don't get it that I am not denying him a forge.

Even if you give it to Shiida only while actually playing the game, that doesn't change the fact that Chainey certainly can use it and has the potential to achieve the same performance as Shiida when using it (aside from other issues like transformation and etc).

What's the worth of performing as well as Caeda when I already have a Caeda? By definition of having her to copy, Caeda exists and is deployed. I'll tell you what it's worth: less than the first Caeda. Diminishing marginal returns.

I find it difficult to believe that something could receive this much attention from them if they're completely in the wrong.

That's because you are operating under the mistaken assumption that it's about correctness of the arguments in this case. When someone opens up posts with a distorted version of a post from 2008, you're not talking about the merits of arguments anymore, you're talking about grudges and people with axes to grind.

Paperblade accidentally tipped his hand near the end of his post and gave away the real reason he does what he does, if you didn't notice.

[Life]

So, the discussion about Serra's potential level got me interested. I went and did a playthrough, mostly to see just how high I could get her, and got some results that support CATS's estimates. I've made a youtube playlist of the run here, if you wish to take a gander, Cap'n Crunch (or any other interested parties.)

S ranked, Serra at 10.93. Obviously an atypically high value, but I wouldn't think a Serra in the range of level 9.5 is implausible, though still slightly high. I'd have no issue with her at an even 9 at all.

If you need help recording things from VBA, give me a pmail and I'll see if I can help you figure it out.

Yeah, I looked at how you did (well, the first 5 chapters at least) and how I do my runs. Very different to say the least. Also, you can call me Life (last username). Only trying out this one because I've never had the opportunity to change it... ever. I'll probably switch back in like a month.

There were, however, some concerns that I had about your run. You did a bit (not a lot but some) RNG abusing in order to take damage or clear maps quicker. I haven't watched the videos from Chapter 6 onwards but it seems that you RNG abused about 5 times based on your descriptions. I know that I don't RNG abuse (I dislike playing around with savestates, I lose data too often) and so for me, that cuts down Serra by at least half a level to a level (clearing turns quicker in the beginning is worth 22 Exp while getting someone hurt on purpose is 11).

As for the other stuff, all that run did was make me feel incompetent about myself as a FE fan and player. I'm not incredible and able to solo HHM with Rebecca or Lyn. I'm just the average FE player who makes mistakes but corrects them through gameplay later on due to quick thinking. That's where a lot of my opinions come from, especially when talking about average stats. Serra's level is probably the best example of this.

tl;dr - I suck at FE compared to you guys even though I can still S Rank HHM. Please don't rub that in during debates because it shouldn't affect my skill as an actual debater.

[Florete]

I'm in the middle of an LHM S rank run to test it myself. I've just gotten Serra and have managed to give myself a 7 turn Tactics cushion, so we'll see how it goes. Chapter turn counts so far have been:

P: 5 (Pretty sure it isn't possible to do it faster without a lucky crit)

1: 5 (-2 from req. Took a few retries to get it right)

2: 5 (-2 again. Pretty easy if done right. Also missed the southern Bandit)

3: 4 (-3. Took some chain-rescuing to pull off)

4: 8 (Survive map, so it obviously can't be cleared quicker)

And my Lyn has been Spd screwed and Res blessed, not that it's made a difference.

EDIT: I'll go into more detail if anyone wants me to, though I'd have to do it off memory.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[CATS]

One of the (many) points of mine that you disregarded: Xane's arrival after your army is already badass is a real problem for giving him something to do. You can't get to Xane efficiently without an army that can fight thusly. There is a massive gap of like 16 chapters where Navarre exists and Xane does not.

So you think we should be implementing a gross system in FE11?

If not, then it doesn't matter. If Navarre is useful in those 16 chapters, then replace him with some other mediocre mid tier unit. The point is the same.

Xane is not an ordinary lategame filler that can assume the responsibilities of some particular niche or two, he is a unit that -- by virtue of the fact that he can only copy units that already exist -- can only contribute something that you already have. This really isn't a deep point, but if you can't see why that diminishes his value over a unit that could do something that you AREN'T already doing, you haven't given it enough thought yet.

What sort of an argument is this? How does Navarre do anything that you aren't already doing? His sole purpose is to attack and kill enemies--Chainey does the exact same thing (or actually he can do other things, but that's aside from the point).

So, who actually said that? I just said that Xane would never dig out of the hole that multiple forges would give him (which is what he needs to maximally leverage his vaunted flexibility), and even a single forge is dubious depending upon what it is. Understand that the epic forges in this game all appear in earlygame (Wing Spear, Iron Bow, Hammer, etc), when there are many enemies ahead that will require them for efficient clears. By the time Xane shows up, you're already getting close to Hammerne.

So just like back then, you still don't get it that I am not denying him a forge.

Quote from the FEG topic:

One of the advantages of a team wit ha wide range of skills is that everyone gets all (or most) of the best effective weapons for the job. In order for Xane to duplicate what they can do, I need to come up with more forged Riders, Wyrmslayers, Hammers, etc.

You tried to use the fact that it costs money to give him a forge as a point against Chainey.

What's the worth of performing as well as Caeda when I already have a Caeda? By definition of having her to copy, Caeda exists and is deployed. I'll tell you what it's worth: less than the first Caeda. Diminishing marginal returns.

And a second Shiida is worth less than a Navarre, simply by virtue of the fact that you already have a unit with Shiida's portrait?

Paperblade accidentally tipped his hand near the end of his post and gave away the real reason he does what he does, if you didn't notice.

Why exactly has he never done this about any other issue?

[Rewjeo]

So, are we tiering Int?

[Ether]

So, are we tiering Int?

Obviously.

Int tier

-Int

Acceptable tier

-RFoF

-Narga

-several others who I'm not sure of

Other tier

-The rest

XD

[dondon151]

Quote from the FEG topic:

One of the advantages of a team wit ha wide range of skills is that everyone gets all (or most) of the best effective weapons for the job. In order for Xane to duplicate what they can do, I need to come up with more forged Riders, Wyrmslayers, Hammers, etc.

You tried to use the fact that it costs money to give him a forge as a point against Chainey.

Well, it is a point against Chainey, and a pretty significant one at that. If you allocated your funds for 2 +5 MT Wing Spears, +5 MT Wyrmslayer, +4 MT Ridersbane, +3 MT Poleaxe, +4 MT Thunderbolt, +4 MT Arrowspate, are you willing to spend money (that is, if you even have the money left in the first place) on another equivalent forge for each of them just so Chainey can use them? You can argue that Chainey only needs one forge to be useful, but the problem would be that it limits his utility to just that one niche, except he requires a player phase to transform, a healer to be healed, and more player phases/heals every 5 turns to maintain his transformation status.

So if you want Chainey to be useful in multiple areas, he requires multiple forges (whereas the typical unit requires 1 or 2 at most). If you want Chainey to be useful in one area, he is necessarily worse than the unit he is copying, in that 1) he requires that unit to be fielded and leveled up in the first place and 2) he has to put up with the issues caused by his transformation.

Edited February 14, 2010 by dondon151

[CATS]

Well, it is a point against Chainey, and a pretty significant one at that. If you allocated your funds for 2 +5 MT Wing Spears, +5 MT Wyrmslayer, +4 MT Ridersbane, +3 MT Poleaxe, are you willing to spend money (that is, if you even have the money left in the first place) on another equivalent forge for each of them just so Chainey can use them? You can argue that Chainey only needs one forge to be useful, but the problem would be that it limits his utility to just that one niche, except he requires a player phase to transform, a healer to be healed, and more player phases/heals every 5 turns to maintain his transformation status.

Having just "one niche" like taking a forged Wing Spear and being Shiida would be still enough to place him over someone like Navarre, I imagine. This is what I had in mind when arguing him. If the idea is to give Chainey like 4 different forges while most units get only 1, so that you are spending much more money on Chainey than on other units, then yeah, ofcourse that's a problem.

The point is that if these weapons already exist (i.e. you already forged them or were going to anyways), and Chainey is capable of using them, why is it assumed that the player does not allow him to use them, yet allows them to be used by other units instead?

So if you want Chainey to be useful in multiple areas, he requires multiple forges (whereas the typical unit requires 1 or 2 at most). If you want Chainey to be useful in one area, he is necessarily worse than the unit he is copying, in that 1) he requires that unit to be fielded and leveled up in the first place and 2) he has to put up with the issues caused by his transformation.

He certainly has to deal with transformation issues, but I don't see how those issues are bigger than having significantly worse stats or combat ability in the case of someone like Navarre.

Edited February 14, 2010 by CATS

[Life]

Obviously.

Int tier

-Int

Acceptable tier

-RFoF

-Narga

-several others who I'm not sure of

Other tier

-The rest

XD

Can I get my own tier too? :P

[Interceptor]

So you think we should be implementing a gross system in FE11?

If not, then it doesn't matter. If Navarre is useful in those 16 chapters, then replace him with some other mediocre mid tier unit. The point is the same.

I don't think that Navarre is so bad that he'd need to be tiered in a gross system in order to have a chance to be better than Xane. I cannot replace Navarre "with some other medicore mid tier unit", it's not my argument, it's yours. You wanted Xane above Navarre, I will argue for Navarre. I'm not going to pre-counter every possible candidate.

He already was raised above Nagi and Gotoh as a result of the thread, so it's not as if he went nowhere, nor that he has no further prospects if it's proven.

What sort of an argument is this? How does Navarre do anything that you aren't already doing? His sole purpose is to attack and kill enemies--Chainey does the exact same thing (or actually he can do other things, but that's aside from the point).

What Navarre does is allow me to fill a niche, and then not deploy anyone else for it. If I choose to use Navarre (and for tiering him, I would), using him efficiently means giving him something to do. In his case, since he starts with C-rank Swords, I would probably reclass him into Cavalier and make him my go-to man for Armorslayer and Wyrmslayer, while he works on his Lance rank when possible for future Javelin/Ridersbane use. Since this is Navarre's army, I would build one around him that is as efficient as possible, in terms of other units used.

Xane? Xane can't do anything new for me. He can clone Sedgar, but I already have a Sedgar, so his usefulness in that role is only worth what a second Sedgar is worth, in addition to all of his other issues like MV, de-transforming, max HP, weapon availability, etc.

You tried to use the fact that it costs money to give him a forge as a point against Chainey.

That's because it IS a point against him. See what dondon just posted.

And a second Shiida is worth less than a Navarre, simply by virtue of the fact that you already have a unit with Shiida's portrait?

It could be that a second Caeda is worth less than Navarre. I mean, if you think about the layouts of the armies, Navarre is probably going to have a near-monopoly on what he does. I do not have so much EXP to distribute that I can afford to baby up an additional unit who can use Armor/Wyrmslayer and a Ridersbane, it makes more sense for me to leverage a forged Hammer and the Wing Spear for gaps. In order words, structure the army such that I have adequate coverage everywhere.

And that's as if Xane existed during the same time as Navarre, which he does not. We run into the problem of availability. As I said before, if Xane didn't show up wtflate, this would be a horse of a different color.

Why exactly has he never done this about any other issue?

I'm not a mind-reader, ask him.

[Inui]

Did you just downplay having a second Sedgar? That's crazy. Having two of pretty much the best unit > having one of them. If Chainey exists on the map for four turns as Sedgar then he's already way better than someone like Navarre even if they get to have five or six turns of use because of how much better Sedgar's stats are than Navarre as anything.

[CATS]

You're missing the point. I picked Navarre because he's some random mid tier who joins early and has much worse stats than top tiers. If you think Navarre is useful and contributing significantly before Chainey joins, then that's an entirely separate argument. I'm operating under the premise that Navarre's net utility before Chainey joins is insignificant as there's a plethora of superior units and efficient play in FE11 encourages small teams, and that Chainey will contribute more than a trained Navarre from Ch 17 through Final.

[Balcerzak]

Yeah, I looked at how you did (well, the first 5 chapters at least) and how I do my runs. Very different to say the least. Also, you can call me Life (last username). Only trying out this one because I've never had the opportunity to change it... ever. I'll probably switch back in like a month.

There were, however, some concerns that I had about your run. You did a bit (not a lot but some) RNG abusing in order to take damage or clear maps quicker. I haven't watched the videos from Chapter 6 onwards but it seems that you RNG abused about 5 times based on your descriptions. I know that I don't RNG abuse (I dislike playing around with savestates, I lose data too often) and so for me, that cuts down Serra by at least half a level to a level (clearing turns quicker in the beginning is worth 22 Exp while getting someone hurt on purpose is 11).

As for the other stuff, all that run did was make me feel incompetent about myself as a FE fan and player. I'm not incredible and able to solo HHM with Rebecca or Lyn. I'm just the average FE player who makes mistakes but corrects them through gameplay later on due to quick thinking. That's where a lot of my opinions come from, especially when talking about average stats. Serra's level is probably the best example of this.

tl;dr - I suck at FE compared to you guys even though I can still S Rank HHM. Please don't rub that in during debates because it shouldn't affect my skill as an actual debater.

Noted, Life Admiral, was it?

Yeah, I don't recall the exact number, but I do think it could be counted on one hand. Though, I'm not sure whether or not you would consider systematic testing and reordering standard attacks to achieve different results also counts as RNG manipulation, and that's pretty much part of my standard repertoire and invisible to the naked eye (eg. attacking a Snag or Wall, to burn 1 RN, or changing the order from Lyn doubling something and being countered (8/9 RN) followed by Florina attacking, to Will attacking uncountered (3 RN) before Florina attacks). I do try to play on the cart whenever possible, typically only using ROMs for translations, or in this instance for recording the playthrough for others to watch. (Also, all slots on my cart are currently dedicated to other use.) I tend to find save states to be too tempting an option, and often a huge crutch. If I find myself reloading save states and burning dozens of RNs in a vain attempt to try to survive an enemy phase, this should be a clue in that my strategy is flawed, and it's often just better to restart the map from square one.

I do apologize on one note though, the goal of the run was certainly not to make you feel incompetent, not by any stretch, but to provide a window into alternate strategies, and because you specifically requested wishing to see how such a thing might be possible. I'm aware that watching videos of someone else's strategies can be intimidating at times, I get the same feeling whenever I load up one of dondon's 0% FE6 videos. I do think that a significant part of that is that the viewer doesn't see all of the failed attempts, which often involve bonehead oversights that are subsequently eliminated. At the point you go to record the video, you've already done your dry run, recorded exactly what worked, and duplicate that to a T, which due to the RN system in the GBA games means it will be reproduced exactly. Watching one of my plays on FE9 or FE10 would be totally different, and have me waste a lot more of the viewers' time trying to figure things out on the fly, I'm sure. Anyways, I guess what I'm trying to say is you certainly shouldn't let it get you down, as part of the beauty of Fire Emblem is that it can accommodate many and varied playstyles. And don't hesitate to voice your opinions when you have them. It's useful to see what a wide range of people consider viable, and at worst you'll end up being corrected and learning something.

I don't tend to see myself as some sugoi sugoi tactician, and I know for a fact that often I use subpar strategies, And hey, if you've already S-ranked HHM, then you've done something I have yet to do, so you're one up on me there.

PS: Soloing even the first few chapters of HNM with Rebecca is mind-numbingly implausible; it's impossible even, depending on how strict you are on your definition of "solo".

I'm in the middle of an LHM S rank run to test it myself. I've just gotten Serra and have managed to give myself a 7 turn Tactics cushion, so we'll see how it goes. Chapter turn counts so far have been:

P: 5 (Pretty sure it isn't possible to do it faster without a lucky crit)

1: 5 (-2 from req. Took a few retries to get it right)

2: 5 (-2 again. Pretty easy if done right. Also missed the southern Bandit)

3: 4 (-3. Took some chain-rescuing to pull off)

4: 8 (Survive map, so it obviously can't be cleared quicker)

And my Lyn has been Spd screwed and Res blessed, not that it's made a difference.

EDIT: I'll go into more detail if anyone wants me to, though I'd have to do it off memory.

That sounds very similar so far, minus the rescue chain. I don't think you can actually complete 2 in 5 _and_ kill the south bandit, again barring a lucky crit, but I could very easily be wrong on that. I'll be interested in hearing about the later chapters when you finish them. I didn't bother spending a lot of time checking for blessing/screwage on my run, but it probably happened. I distinctly remember Sain's strength being more beastly than typical, and 10 speed for Lyn at level 7 was kind of lol.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Balcerzak

[Interceptor]

The point is that if these weapons already exist (i.e. you already forged them or were going to anyways), and Chainey is capable of using them, why is it assumed that the player does not allow him to use them, yet allows them to be used by other units instead?

The weapon cannot be in two places at once. You either need to forge a copy, or do some trade-chains. You already have a unit that can use the forge. Xane cannot use a forge unless he copies someone who can use it. Someone cannot be copied unless they are deployed. This means you have two units at the same time who can use a forge, but the single forge cannot be stretched between them.

Xane can basically get any generic weapon for free, and some of the rarer items like Recover, or Silver, or even an unforged eff or prf weapon is also fine. It's not until we get into the realm of dropping 5,000+ gold on a single forge that we get ridiculous, and unfortunately this is seriously how FEDS is efficiently cleared, by overpowering these monster enemy units with OHKOs whenever possible.

He certainly has to deal with transformation issues, but I don't see how those issues are bigger than having significantly worse stats or combat ability in the case of someone like Navarre.

Navarre can eventually blick a mount, or ORKO an Armor/General, or significantly injure a Manakete. It's very possible to make him a worthwhile member of your team. He's no Abel/Hardin, and not even a Cain, but he's not terrible, just mediocre.

Did you just downplay having a second Sedgar? That's crazy. Having two of pretty much the best unit > having one of them. If Chainey exists on the map for four turns as Sedgar then he's already way better than someone like Navarre even if they get to have five or six turns of use because of how much better Sedgar's stats are than Navarre as anything.

Before I say anything, do you or do not you not understand/believe that a second Sedgar is not giving you are much utility as the first one?

[Florete]

That sounds very similar so far, minus the rescue chain. I don't think you can actually complete 2 in 5 _and_ kill the south bandit, again barring a lucky crit, but I could very easily be wrong on that. I'll be interested in hearing about the later chapters when you finish them. I didn't bother spending a lot of time checking for blessing/screwage on my run, but it probably happened. I distinctly remember Sain's strength being more beastly than typical, and 10 speed for Lyn at level 7 was kind of lol.

I actually just watched your videos and compared them to mine. The Prologue was pretty much the exact same except where you RNG abused I simply got lucky. 1 was a bit different, I'm sure, but I don't really remember the details on my final run of that. 2 was mostly the same until you broke open the wall, where I had Kent go in instead of Lyn, and I also never got to attack the southern bandit at all. 3, however, was quite a bit different from what I can see. I'll type out a detailed log of it when I finish my run. And I haven't watched any more of your videos because I want to see how well I can do at them myself first.

[CATS]

Can I get my own tier too? :P

imo

People Who Matter And Control The List Tier

Narga

Mekkah

Colonel M

Interceptor

some other people that i can't remember atm

So Good That No One Can Counter Him Tier

Crimson Edge

FE Gods Fanboy Tier

Inui

Life Admiral and FE Gods Tier

Life Admiral

CATS

Reikken

Solid

Everyone else tier

everyone else

[Life]

Noted, Life Admiral, was it?

Yeah, I don't recall the exact number, but I do think it could be counted on one hand. Though, I'm not sure whether or not you would consider systematic testing and reordering standard attacks to achieve different results also counts as RNG manipulation, and that's pretty much part of my standard repertoire and invisible to the naked eye (eg. attacking a Snag or Wall, to burn 1 RN, or changing the order from Lyn doubling something and being countered (8/9 RN) followed by Florina attacking, to Will attacking uncountered (3 RN) before Florina attacks). I do try to play on the cart whenever possible, typically only using ROMs for translations, or in this instance for recording the playthrough for others to watch. (Also, all slots on my cart are currently dedicated to other use.) I tend to find save states to be too tempting an option, and often a huge crutch. If I find myself reloading save states and burning dozens of RNs in a vain attempt to try to survive an enemy phase, this should be a clue in that my strategy is flawed, and it's often just better to restart the map from square one.

I do apologize on one note though, the goal of the run was certainly not to make you feel incompetent, not by any stretch, but to provide a window into alternate strategies, and because you specifically requested wishing to see how such a thing might be possible. I'm aware that watching videos of someone else's strategies can be intimidating at times, I get the same feeling whenever I load up one of dondon's 0% FE6 videos. I do think that a significant part of that is that the viewer doesn't see all of the failed attempts, which often involve bonehead oversights that are subsequently eliminated. At the point you go to record the video, you've already done your dry run, recorded exactly what worked, and duplicate that to a T, which due to the RN system in the GBA games means it will be reproduced exactly. Watching one of my plays on FE9 or FE10 would be totally different, and have me waste a lot more of the viewers' time trying to figure things out on the fly, I'm sure. Anyways, I guess what I'm trying to say is you certainly shouldn't let it get you down, as part of the beauty of Fire Emblem is that it can accommodate many and varied playstyles. And don't hesitate to voice your opinions when you have them. It's useful to see what a wide range of people consider viable, and at worst you'll end up being corrected and learning something.

I don't tend to see myself as some sugoi sugoi tactician, and I know for a fact that often I use subpar strategies, And hey, if you've already S-ranked HHM, then you've done something I have yet to do, so you're one up on me there.

PS: Soloing even the first few chapters of HNM with Rebecca is mind-numbingly implausible; it's impossible even, depending on how strict you are on your definition of "solo".

Yeah, Life Admiral.

When I do my LHM runs, I always do it on the fly. Even with this last video I was recording (I was until I noticed your playthrough and watched it to see the differences with mine), I didn't do any dry runs before hand. I was working with a fully new set of RN which at one point had me miss a double 87 displayed Hit (probability of it happening escapes me for the moment). Point is that (until I do my next HHM S Rank run which will be very soon) I don't beat a chapter once and then see if I can do it faster or more efficiently when it comes to Exp. If I beat it, I'm done with it and I move on to the next one.

The Rebecca comment was just me saying that I haven't done every challenge possible in this game (I have beaten EHM with a drafted team of Eliwood, Lowen, Flo, Ninian, Hawk, Pent, Louise and Jaffar using nobody else but that was just a little contest) and that I'm not fantastic or anything. And the HHM S Rank was more than a year ago and I've lost my FE7 data twice since then, not to mention that I got lucky on it, that I'm not even sure I can do it again. I'll try when I unlock it (chapter 22 of HNM and then doing a quick draft run of HHM) but I seriously doubt my abilities at this point. I don't doubt my debate skills, though. Instead, I KNOW that they're subpar :P. But then again, arguing about FE usually requires subpar skillz so that you can make it hard on yourself when trying to prove a point. It's like cooking a turkey in the microwave. Why use an oven when you can give yourself a challenge and poison your relatives while you're at it?

imo

People Who Matter And Control The List Tier

Narga

Mekkah

Colonel M

Interceptor

some other people that i can't remember atm

So Good That No One Can Counter Him Tier

Crimson Edge

FE Gods Fanboy Tier

Inui

Life Admiral and FE Gods Tier

Life Admiral

CATS

Reikken

Solid

Everyone else tier

everyone else

I like it. Screw the FE7 tier list, this is what we need.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[CATS]

Why is it acceptable to give a massively expensive forge to Shiida, but if it costs 5000+ gold to give the same weapon to Chainey, suddenly it's not ok anymore?

Before I say anything, do you or do not you not understand/believe that a second Sedgar is not giving you are much utility as the first one?

Chainey being worse than Sedgar provides no evidence whatsoever to support Navarre > Chainey.

I like it. Screw the FE7 tier list, this is what we need.

Indeed. If everyone would just accept their proper positions within that tier list we wouldn't have to argue so much all the time.

Edited February 14, 2010 by CATS

[Interceptor]

Why is it acceptable to give a massively expensive forge to Shiida, but if it costs 5000+ gold to give the same weapon to Chainey, suddenly it's not ok anymore?

I'm going to point out right here that a forged Wing Spear is seriously clutch for earlygame, making a huge impact on turn counts and safety. When Xane shows up... a forged Wing Spear isn't even OHKOing some things anymore, and the army has grown to the point where they have fewer problems dealing with such enemies (Ridersbane, Hammer, Poleax, people who can double, etc).

So if I forge a sweet WS for Xane, it costs the same amount but I also get way less out of it. I think you'd agree that's problematic for him.

Chainey being worse than Sedgar provides no evidence whatsoever to support Navarre > Chainey.

This might blow your mind, but I wasn't actually talking to you right there.

Indeed. If everyone would just accept their proper positions within that tier list we wouldn't have to argue so much all the time.

When you think about it, tier lists being a contest of wills as they are, there is a meta-list in the background, composed of debaters, that rarely gets acknowledged. The regular FE tier lists are just proxy battles between these giants.

[Narga_Rocks]

Why is it acceptable to give a massively expensive forge to Shiida, but if it costs 5000+ gold to give the same weapon to Chainey, suddenly it's not ok anymore?

Bloody econ lessons time again.

Okay, so, we all (hopefully) know this one:

Economic profit = Normal Profit - Opportunity cost.

So, what is the benefit from Shiida's early forge? Destroying stuff for a very long time, bla bla bla. Never played, so I can't really make any claims here. Also, you don't already have someone that can do this. In any way, shape or form. Huge gains to the army.

Opportunity cost? lose the money, delay one chapter for other forges for other people. Judge the amount of this one as you will.

For Chainey?

Same process, except you end up with different results.

You already have one unit flying around with a super forge, so the gain from getting that super forge is smaller. You can't simply give him Caeda's, since then the unit that actually gains exp and gets stronger is left without it, and Chainey gives you nothing you don't get from Caeda using hers, except she actually gets something for it. And any time you have two cavs or armors, you only need Caeda, since she kills one and the next dies on enemy phase. There is no benefit here from having Chainey help her do it. So basically, his profit is smaller.

Opportunity cost? same deal with the money and preventing other forges from being created.

If there is enough money to do it and there isn't anything lost by making the forge though, I don't see a problem with making one. However, you still end up with a vastly smaller economic profit from doing this, and that's not even going into the needing to transform and everything that entails. The question becomes, does his available time with a seriously gimped economic profit in relation to Shiida's make him better than some of those other units in mid tier. Whatever one might say about how Interceptor analyzes opportunity cost and how much credit to give Mia for what she can do in fe9 or fe10, it seems to me that most of this is being ignored by Chainey fans.

When told Chainey faces a high cost to get a forge, what do they say in response?

Focus on the money cost of the forge and the idea that Chainey gets exactly the same utility from the forge that Shiida gets from hers. And some people wonder why Int and I act the way we do.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Narga_Rocks