who is better Harr Ike Jill or shinon

[El Rey León]

Haar, Shinon, and Ike are the Battle Gods of RD. I don't know why Jill is mentioned in the same breath as them. They laugh her out of the clubhouse. Yeah, she's good, but honestly, I've never been too impressed.

Haar is best of them because he has high str and def and is a flying unit (best mov and canto ftw). People say he has speed problems, but I've never really noticed. Maybe because I allocate my speedwings to him, but even without he still doubles everything in Part 2 and 3. The only thing he has to fear is Thunder and even then he's got enough HP to survive a hit. Most everything else barely scratches him. And his skill is high enough that Stun is a frequent occurrence.

Shinon is an archer who TANKS. How cool is that? And even if he had poor def, dude's a friggin' twinkle-toes. Enemies almost never hit him, his avoid is that damn good. And once he gets that Double Bow, he's even more unstoppable. He can hurt Dheggy without fear of being Ire'd and is a spirit killing machine in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5. Best archer in any Fire Emblem. Hands down. Totally makes up for being so sucky in PoR

And we all know the deal with Ike, most broken lord in FE history (Sigurd wishes he was as broken). Like Haar, the only thing he has to fear are mages, but with Ragnell, he can give payback. Hard Mode, his speed can hurt him, but I've never had any real problems.

In the end, I'd say Haar > Shinon > Ike >>> Jill.

[El Rey León]

Feh, posted twice by accident.

Edited January 3, 2010 by El Rey Leon

[Mikethfc]

Ike is needed to defeat two bosses Haar, Shinon and Jill are never needed granted they help but they aren't 100% necessary so I voted Ike

[Lilmik11]

Haar, Shinon, and Ike are the Battle Gods of RD. I don't know why Jill is mentioned in the same breath as them. They laugh her out of the clubhouse. Yeah, she's good, but honestly, I've never been too impressed.

Haar is best of them because he has high str and def and is a flying unit (best mov and canto ftw). People say he has speed problems, but I've never really noticed. Maybe because I allocate my speedwings to him, but even without he still doubles everything in Part 2 and 3. The only thing he has to fear is Thunder and even then he's got enough HP to survive a hit. Most everything else barely scratches him. And his skill is high enough that Stun is a frequent occurrence.

Shinon is an archer who TANKS. How cool is that? And even if he had poor def, dude's a friggin' twinkle-toes. Enemies almost never hit him, his avoid is that damn good. And once he gets that Double Bow, he's even more unstoppable. He can hurt Dheggy without fear of being Ire'd and is a spirit killing machine in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5. Best archer in any Fire Emblem. Hands down. Totally makes up for being so sucky in PoR

And we all know the deal with Ike, most broken lord in FE history (Sigurd wishes he was as broken). Like Haar, the only thing he has to fear are mages, but with Ragnell, he can give payback. Hard Mode, his speed can hurt him, but I've never had any real problems.

In the end, I'd say Haar > Shinon > Ike >>> Jill.

About the speedwing,it's not like Haar is the only people who deserve them.There's Micaiah that could use them,or Sanaki in part 4.Even Soren would love having these.He has a lot of competition for those,and even with thse speedwing,Jill end up better because she has better avoid,and better resistance,so she can really survive anything.I always bless the Brave Axe for her so she can kill anything.I mean,at the time i brought Haar,I was having trouble with him,since he is close to never double in Endgame(except against loldragons).So yeah,that's pretty much it.

My question is....who is the most useful?A powerhouse in a gang of weakling or a powerhouse in a gang of...powerhouse?I think the answer is easy.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Lilmik11

[Fayt Zelpher]

Haar, Shinon, and Ike are the Battle Gods of RD. I don't know why Jill is mentioned in the same breath as them. They laugh her out of the clubhouse. Yeah, she's good, but honestly, I've never been too impressed.

Haar is best of them because he has high str and def and is a flying unit (best mov and canto ftw). People say he has speed problems, but I've never really noticed. Maybe because I allocate my speedwings to him, but even without he still doubles everything in Part 2 and 3. The only thing he has to fear is Thunder and even then he's got enough HP to survive a hit. Most everything else barely scratches him. And his skill is high enough that Stun is a frequent occurrence.

Shinon is an archer who TANKS. How cool is that? And even if he had poor def, dude's a friggin' twinkle-toes. Enemies almost never hit him, his avoid is that damn good. And once he gets that Double Bow, he's even more unstoppable. He can hurt Dheggy without fear of being Ire'd and is a spirit killing machine in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5. Best archer in any Fire Emblem. Hands down. Totally makes up for being so sucky in PoR

And we all know the deal with Ike, most broken lord in FE history (Sigurd wishes he was as broken). Like Haar, the only thing he has to fear are mages, but with Ragnell, he can give payback. Hard Mode, his speed can hurt him, but I've never had any real problems.

In the end, I'd say Haar > Shinon > Ike >>> Jill.

About the speedwing,it's not like Haar is the only people who deserve them.There's Micaiah that could use them,or Sanaki in part 4.Even Soren would love having these.He has a lot of competition for those,and even with thse speedwing,Jill end up better because she has better avoid,and better resistance,so she can really survive anything.I always bless the Brave Axe for her so she can kill anything.I mean,at the time i brought Haar,I was having trouble with him,since he is close to never double in Endgame(except against loldragons).So yeah,that's pretty much it.

My question is....who is the most useful?A powerhouse in a gang of weakling or a powerhouse in a gang of...powerhouse?I think the answer is easy.

Plus, we have to consider class speed caps as well. Ike get 37, Jill, 35; Shinon, 34; and Haar...32. For endgame 1 and 2, we'll go ahead and assume that each of these four characters has a speed equal to their average 20/15 stats. Jill and Shinon have both already capped speed. Ike has 33 speed already, with room to grow. Haar has a mere 29 (I'll round up for him). What do we find in 4-E-1? A lot of enemies with 26 and 27 AS. Assuming Haar only got 28 speed, we find that a lot of the generals have 25 speed, so Haar may not even be doubling them. In 4-E-2, now most of the enemies have 26-28 AS, so Haar likely isn't doubling much except for some of the generals and bishops, which have 25 and 24 AS, respectively. Fast forward to 4-E-4, and we see that the spirits have 30 speed (thunder have 28). In other words, even maxed out (I'm going to assume NM, meaning no EM bonuses), Haar's not capable of a 1RKO on anything but the thunder spirits. Everyone else is doubling them and killing them easily. Finally, in 4-E-5, Haar is the only one who can't double auras, even with Nasir. So, while Haar has plenty of utility throughout the game, he's not going to be going to endgame. His horrid Res when everything in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5 isn't helping either. I stand by Ike > Haar.

[Deliriyum]

Ike is needed to defeat two bosses Haar, Shinon and Jill are never needed granted they help but they aren't 100% necessary so I voted Ike

That doesn't justify that he is better the others.

Also, in the first few chapters of the GMs, there are some generals who Ike can't ORKO without a lucky critical. Once Haar comes, he ORKO's everything he doubles, and he can OHKO mages, priests, and some swordmasters, granted he has a steel poleax.

[Fayt Zelpher]

Ike is needed to defeat two bosses Haar, Shinon and Jill are never needed granted they help but they aren't 100% necessary so I voted Ike

That doesn't justify that he is better the others.

Also, in the first few chapters of the GMs, there are some generals who Ike can't ORKO without a lucky critical. Once Haar comes, he ORKO's everything he doubles, and he can OHKO mages, priests, and some swordmasters, granted he has a steel poleax.

Bolded the key words. He's not doubling much until after promotion, and I'm not going to grant that until 3-7 on NM. Asuming --/20/5 by 3-E and he's got 26 Spd. That's not doubling the SM's, but other than that, this is his finest hour. We'll assume he and Jill go with Micaiah - they need more help, especially for the desert level. Once 4-P comes, he's not doubling again, as now enemies have 23 Spd consistently, although he still doubles the majority of the 21-22 AS enemies. But let's say he goes with Tibarn and Elincia - He wants the Exp, after all, if he's going to 4-E (which, as I state a couple of posts above, is not the greatest idea). There are a lot of 23-25 AS enemies that he's not doubling until --/20/9 at the earliest, and I don't think he's getting there in time for 4-2. In 4-5, he's only doubling tigers and dragons, and, even with 52 Mt (max Str, Silver Axe), he's not killing tigers (5-8 HP on HM, maybe a kill on NM) and struggling to 3HKO dragons (probably 4HKO even with a forge), which is going to be 2 turns since they're attacking from range on enemy phase. A forge would solve this (for the tigers, he's not going to 1RKO the dragons in any case), but remember, this is not PoR, and you're not swimming in gold here. So, Haar want's to go with Micaiah (Ike has an indoor level and a FoW level, and Haar's not doing great in either.). As a result, he's not even going to likely reach 20/15 anyway. So, he's probably going to stay with 28 Spd and probably not be doubling anything. A wing would help him through 4-E-2, but Micaiah has her eyes on one (and she's forced) and there are plenty of other people who would like the other(-s, I don't remember if there are 2 or three in this game). Bottom line: Haar's speed is really hurting him throughout this game, though particularly in part 4.

P.S - Lilmik: Haar actually has a lower speed cap than Micaiah. Haar gets 32, Mickey can hit 33.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[Candlejack]

Can't Ike get SPD screwed anyway?

[Fayt Zelpher]

Can't Ike get SPD screwed anyway?

I'm assuming that each character is at their averages for the level that I specified, so they're just as likely to have more speed as less. Plus, we should also note that Ike has a chance of a Spd transfer anyway, which makes that point moot. Haar's not capping anything in PoR (okay, 7% for Str, which he doesn't care about for more than a few levels before he rams his Str cap in tier 2). (Jill can also get Str/Skl/Spd/Def, so that should account for something as well).

[Candlejack]

What about HP?

... forget I said that.

[_____]

Bolded the key words. He's not doubling much until after promotion, and I'm not going to grant that until 3-7 on NM.

Crown in early Part 3.

Where is your God now?

He only needs to be ?/18/1 to have 24 speed, which doubles a majority of the enemies until 3-8. By that point, he could have easily gained a point of speed, and, guess what? 25 speed doubles a majority of the maps until 3-11, and that's only against the unmounted units there. You've already submitted that he's doing fine in 3-E.

Did I mention that he's almost invincible throughout this entire Part, he has better 1-2 range than Ike until Ragnell comes, access to stuff like Hammers to deal with Generals, flight...

Wait, what exactly is Ike winning in here? Let's not forget that Haar has been basically the MVP for 2-P and 2-E.

We'll assume he and Jill go with Micaiah - they need more help, especially for the desert level. Once 4-P comes, he's not doubling again, as now enemies have 23 Spd consistently, although he still doubles the majority of the 21-22 AS enemies. But let's say he goes with Tibarn and Elincia - He wants the Exp, after all, if he's going to 4-E (which, as I state a couple of posts above, is not the greatest idea). There are a lot of 23-25 AS enemies that he's not doubling until --/20/9 at the earliest, and I don't think he's getting there in time for 4-2. In 4-5, he's only doubling tigers and dragons, and, even with 52 Mt (max Str, Silver Axe), he's not killing tigers (5-8 HP on HM, maybe a kill on NM) and struggling to 3HKO dragons (probably 4HKO even with a forge), which is going to be 2 turns since they're attacking from range on enemy phase. A forge would solve this (for the tigers, he's not going to 1RKO the dragons in any case), but remember, this is not PoR, and you're not swimming in gold here. So, Haar want's to go with Micaiah (Ike has an indoor level and a FoW level, and Haar's not doing great in either.). As a result, he's not even going to likely reach 20/15 anyway. So, he's probably going to stay with 28 Spd and probably not be doubling anything.

You're joking, right?

Most of 4-P is comprised of those 21-22 AS Paladins you mentioned. Stop acting like he's not doubling there.

Meanwhile, Haar flying pretty much assures that he's going to be one of the best units in 4-3, even if he doesn't double, especially since he's still invincible and his one hit hits hard.

A wing would help him through 4-E-2, but Micaiah has her eyes on one (and she's forced)

Micaiah is Thani and staves. Nothing else. She does not want a wing.

and there are plenty of other people who would like the other(-s, I don't remember if there are 2 or three in this game).

The only other person who comes close to making as much use of the wing as Haar does is Titania, and she is inferior to Haar in everything but affinity.

Bottom line: Haar's speed is really hurting him throughout this game, though particularly in part 4.

Bottom line: Stop sandbagging Haar.

Ike is winning in Part 4; I am not saying otherwise. Haar is still one of your best units outside of 4-E, which he doesn't even need to participate in. He would still have built up enough positive utility to cream Ike.

Edit: I have to stop typing so quickly.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Ninji

[Candlejack]

Isn't Haar's supposed SPD problem countered by saying that many units have trouble doubling in the first place anyway and those who do have other problems as well like low STR average like trueblades or laguz with transform issues? Ike is the only beorc who comes close but even then his SPD is very iffy without a transfer. Offense isn't the only thing that is important in this game you know; durability, mobility, availability, utility, something else that ends with ility, and Haar is godly in those categories.

and lolthunder

[Fayt Zelpher]

Bolded the key words. He's not doubling much until after promotion, and I'm not going to grant that until 3-7 on NM.

Crown in early Part 3.

Where is your God now?

I'll grant that crown at 20/18 for purposes of argument, though there are other characters that can use it well too. Also remember that crowning him early means he's got less growth room in 3rd tier and less chance to try and and BExp his weaker stats too. As for the second statement, let's not get into religious debates here. Personally, I don't believe in one, and that's all I'm saying about that.

Wait, what exactly is Ike winning in here? Let's not forget that Haar has been basically the MVP for 2-P and 2-E.

Haar's got major doubling problems in 2-E. I'll grant that he's a major help in 2-P, but Elincia, Mordy, and Nephenee are also getting a lot of positive utility here as well. Haar's not soloing this map, especially if Nephenee can double (or has transfers). She's quite possibly better in 2-E, if for no other reason than the fact that Haar is probably going to have to defend the bottom left, with all of its thunder mages, and she's going to get 3+ levels by 2-E from 2-1, 2-2. Haar's maybe getting one level from 2-P and will gain maybe one more by turn 5 since he's so overleveled when he joins. Besides, Ike's doing almost as well for 3-P and 3-1, so it's a wash anyway.

We'll assume he and Jill go with Micaiah - they need more help, especially for the desert level. Once 4-P comes, he's not doubling again, as now enemies have 23 Spd consistently, although he still doubles the majority of the 21-22 AS enemies. But let's say he goes with Tibarn and Elincia - He wants the Exp, after all, if he's going to 4-E (which, as I state a couple of posts above, is not the greatest idea). There are a lot of 23-25 AS enemies that he's not doubling until --/20/9 at the earliest, and I don't think he's getting there in time for 4-2. In 4-5, he's only doubling tigers and dragons, and, even with 52 Mt (max Str, Silver Axe), he's not killing tigers (5-8 HP on HM, maybe a kill on NM) and struggling to 3HKO dragons (probably 4HKO even with a forge), which is going to be 2 turns since they're attacking from range on enemy phase. A forge would solve this (for the tigers, he's not going to 1RKO the dragons in any case), but remember, this is not PoR, and you're not swimming in gold here. So, Haar want's to go with Micaiah (Ike has an indoor level and a FoW level, and Haar's not doing great in either.). As a result, he's not even going to likely reach 20/15 anyway. So, he's probably going to stay with 28 Spd and probably not be doubling anything.

You're joking, right?

Most of 4-P is comprised of those 21-22 AS Paladins you mentioned. Stop acting like he's not doubling there.

Meanwhile, Haar flying pretty much assures that he's going to be one of the best units in 4-3, even if he doesn't double, especially since he's still invincible and his one hit hits hard.

Fair enough, but you have to account for the fact that he's not gaining nearly as many levels, especially if you crowned him. 20/18/7 is the same as 20/20/5 statwise. I'll grant that he's good in 4-P, but Ike is doing just as well in 4-1, plus he just got promoted and has Ragnell. This means Ike likely has just as much defense and offense (Haar's probably got more strength, but he's part of the poor (money-wise) GM's for a long time, so he's not getting more than silver axes and steel poleaxes - no forge in 4-P). Hand axes and javelins are Haar's only ranged choices here unless you assume he's taking tomahawk from Jill or Nolan or one of Nephenee's spears. Ike's had Ragnell for 2 chapters now, plus it's stronger, more accurate, and unbreakable. Plus, he's getting his own authority stars (Mickey doesn't have any) and he has an A-support by now, so he's avoiding everything he's taking damage from anyway. Haar's got the worst affinity, and his only viable supports are really Jill and Marcia. He won't have but maybe a B-Marcia for 4-P and won't have anything with Jill for 4-P. He's also got major avoid trouble as a result (20/18/11 Haar has 74 base avoid at neutral biorhythm), and the mages have 153 hit. In other words, he's facing 80 displayed hit (92 true) against mages who deal 20+ damage to him. Plus, they've got full move in the desert too, and he won't quite be able to one round them either, so he's taking a hit either way, and 2 hits without a ranged weapon. I don't think he's quite as invincible as he appears.

A wing would help him through 4-E-2, but Micaiah has her eyes on one (and she's forced)

Micaiah is Thani and staves. Nothing else. She does not want a wing.

Fair enough, but the DB is keeping it's wing. As for the 2-3 wing, Ike has just as much claim to it as anyone else, especially if

you're wanting Lehran for the final fight.

and there are plenty of other people who would like the other(-s, I don't remember if there are 2 or three in this game).

The only other person who comes close to making as much use of the wing as Haar does is Titania, and she is inferior to Haar in everything but affinity.

See above. Ike wants it too for the main BK fight in 4-E-2 and for 3-7. Besides, Ike has to win that fight, so he's got priority.

Bottom line: Haar's speed is really hurting him throughout this game, though particularly in part 4.

Bottom line: Stop sandbagging Haar.

Ike is winning in Part 4; I am not saying otherwise. Haar is still one of your best units outside of 4-E, which he doesn't even need to participate in. He would still have built up enough positive utility to cream Ike.

Ike v. Haar is much closer throughout part 3 than you make it sound, and Ike's going to beat Haar in part 4. What it comes down to is that Ike's going to endgame, and Haar's not a great choice. That means that Haar's hurting his support partner as a result, and Ike's partner is probably Mia, since Mia wants avoid and Ike could use more attack. Haar's going to end up slowing down for any support partner in the GM's (except maybe Titania, who's stuck with Ike in part 4 anyway, so it's a moot point), so he's stuck without one until 3-11 for Marcia or 4-P for Jill (she's staying with the DB ). Then, Ike goes to the tower and gains more utility than Haar's built up. I'm perfectly comfortable with Haar as #2 unit in the game overall - He is that good. Ike is still better though.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[Candlejack]

Isn't Haar's supposed SPD problem countered by saying that many units have trouble doubling in the first place anyway and those who do have other problems as well like low STR average like trueblades or laguz with transform issues? Ike is the only beorc who comes close but even then his SPD is very iffy without a transfer. Offense isn't the only thing that is important in this game you know; durability, mobility, availability, utility, something else that ends with ility, and Haar is godly in those categories.

and lolthunder

[Fayt Zelpher]

Isn't Haar's supposed SPD problem countered by saying that many units have trouble doubling in the first place anyway and those who do have other problems as well like low STR average like trueblades or laguz with transform issues? Ike is the only beorc who comes close but even then his SPD is very iffy without a transfer. Offense isn't the only thing that is important in this game you know; durability, mobility, availability, utility, something else that ends with ility, and Haar is godly in those categories.

and lolthunder

Remember, I am arguing specifically for Ike (who, you yourself admitted is the closest one to not having these problems), and we have to remember that he's got a good chance of getting several transfers, with which he's easily better than Haar. I've already argued that Ike has just as much durability, availability, and utility. Haar's got a mobility advantage, but that comes at the cost of a support (Haar needs more avoid badly, as I've shown using the 4-3 mages) - Mia and Ike are both 7 move, so they'll not hinder each other. And he's taking 20 damage against 4-3 wind mages, so I'm pretty sure that thunder mages are very close to a 2HKO on Haar, if not already. And they're hitting him quite a bit as well with Haar having no supports, bad speed, average luck, and no stars for Micaiah. Ike's got a slight lead here.

[Candlejack]

Isn't Haar's supposed SPD problem countered by saying that many units have trouble doubling in the first place anyway and those who do have other problems as well like low STR average like trueblades or laguz with transform issues? Ike is the only beorc who comes close but even then his SPD is very iffy without a transfer. Offense isn't the only thing that is important in this game you know; durability, mobility, availability, utility, something else that ends with ility, and Haar is godly in those categories.

and lolthunder

Remember, I am arguing specifically for Ike (who, you yourself admitted is the closest one to not having these problems), and we have to remember that he's got a good chance of getting several transfers, with which he's easily better than Haar. I've already argued that Ike has just as much durability, availability, and utility. Haar's got a mobility advantage, but that comes at the cost of a support (Haar needs more avoid badly, as I've shown using the 4-3 mages) - Mia and Ike are both 7 move, so they'll not hinder each other. And he's taking 20 damage against 4-3 wind mages, so I'm pretty sure that thunder mages are very close to a 2HKO on Haar, if not already. And they're hitting him quite a bit as well with Haar having no supports, bad speed, average luck, and no stars for Micaiah. Ike's got a slight lead here.

1. No. Ike STILL has a problem. Haar does not, and considering Thunder mages a problem is a pathetic excuse for an argument since if Haar gets into range of one anyway, he can survive a hit. Afterwards, he'll OHKO it and then proceed to be God again.

2. You say Ike can only truly beat Haar with transfers. Now, lets remove those transfers. OH SHI- Looks like Haar has an advantage. So Ike only now wins half the time when you include transfers. Also, Haar has 3 chapters of availability over Ike; granted, one is lol2P but then he gets 2E where he WTFRAPES the entire chapter. He's even beating Ike out in defense; base 23 DEF and 65% growth vs. base 21 DEF and 40% growth? And lets not forget that they both have the same base RES so if you're claiming Haar has trouble with mages... somehow... then so is Ike. But then Haar gets a lead in a RES growth (25% vs. 15%). And thunder magic is pathetically weak. And factored against Haar's WTF 46 base HP he will survive a hit. Assuming these jokes of an enemy hit him first.

Oh and Haar has >>>>> utility over Ike. Sure Ike is the lord but he really only serves as a combat unit. Haar, however, is MUCH more useful in Part 3 considering this: who else is going to set those supplies on fire in very few turns considering you don't use him? Who else is going to block the senators in time while Heather steals from them? Who else is going to go up the mountain in 3-4 and help your backlogged units? Who else is going to cross those thickets, ledges, cliffs, and fences in 3-5 without caring? Who else will be immune to the pwnage of the swamp in 3-7 other than Janaff/Ulki? Who else will stand on those traps in 3-11 and allow everyone else to pass by and even fly over the barricades? Who else will pwn face in 4-3? Or in 4-4 with all those ledges that Haar can laugh at? At a unit with canto, the ability to, at worst, 2HKO everything, with a nearly harmless weakness since he can actually survive it, with Axes/Lances to boot, who can fly, and is pretty much your only flier in Part 3 other than Jill?

Yeah good luck proving Ike has more utility than that.

3. Haar does NOT need AVO; he has enough godly defense to beat out pretty much anything the game throws at him that avoid is a minor bonus. And why are you supporting Mia and Ike anyway? That isn't like its the best support of all time; lol@ Ike throwing Earth away on a Fire affinity which he doesn't even NEED.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Merlinus the Jew

[Deliriyum]

Haar's got major doubling problems in 2-E. I'll grant that he's a major help in 2-P, but Elincia, Mordy, and Nephenee are also getting a lot of positive utility here as well. Haar's not soloing this map, especially if Nephenee can double (or has transfers). She's quite possibly better in 2-E, if for no other reason than the fact that Haar is probably going to have to defend the bottom left, with all of its thunder mages, and she's going to get 3+ levels by 2-E from 2-1, 2-2. Haar's maybe getting one level from 2-P and will gain maybe one more by turn 5 since he's so overleveled when he joins. Besides, Ike's doing almost as well for 3-P and 3-1, so it's a wash anyway.

Mordy can't do much other than help clog up the right sides. His guage disallows him from tanking for more than 2 turns. Nephenee(and Brom) need constant surveillance and healing from Elincia, which means Elincia is capable of a heal and an attack every turn with leanne. Maybe 2 attacks if you got lucky the previous enemy phase. Haar is helping this because, he can handle the lower left for 2, maybe 3 turns, as long as he doesn't get hit by a thunder sage. Thunder sages aren't even that threatening to him. At this point its elthunder 5*3 + enemy mag - 7(res)=damage.

2x Thunder Sage lvl 5 (Elthunder, one has stealable Reaper Card)

HP 31, Atk 24, AS 16, Hit 127, Avo 52, DEF 11, RES 15, Crit 18, Ddg 10

1x Thunder Sage lvl 4 (Elthunder)

HP 30, Atk 24, AS 16, Hit 126, Avo 51, DEF 10, RES 14, Crit 18, Ddg 9

19 magic? so that'd be 27 damage, which he can handle in one turn.

Edit: Also in part 3, Haar can handle any sage much better than Ike can because he can move just outside its range, then fly in and OHKO(no counter) with a steel poleax. If Ike tries this, he likely won't OHKO(unless he has ragnell), so he is eating a counter with suck resistence.

Edited January 3, 2010 by core34510

[Candlejack]

True. And if we aren't assuming you'll sandbag him further by not giving him 2-range or merely the option to counterattack, he OHKOS the lolmage.

[Deliriyum]

True. And if we aren't assuming you'll sandbag him further by not giving him 2-range or merely the option to counterattack, he OHKOS the lolmage.

Yes as I said when I edited my post, Haar will have enough attack and move, to OHKO magics with a steel poleax throughout the game.

[_____]

I'll grant that crown at 20/18 for purposes of argument, though there are other characters that can use it well too.

And yet he uses it the best, outside of, say, Gatrie. Everyone who can use a crown wants to use a crown, if only to save 100 EXP at level 20, but if others are performing better with it...

Also remember that crowning him early means he's got less growth room in 3rd tier and less chance to try and and BExp his weaker stats too.

I've shown that it only makes him better all the way up until 4-E, where it probably makes him a tad worse, but he's still doing fairly well, regardless. BEXP matters a lot less, anyway, since there's less of it.

As for the second statement, let's not get into religious debates here. Personally, I don't believe in one, and that's all I'm saying about that.

ಠ_ಠ

Haar's got major doubling problems in 2-E.

Haar has enough AS at base to double almost every armor. That's really all he needs.

I'll grant that he's a major help in 2-P, but Elincia, Mordy, and Nephenee are also getting a lot of positive utility here as well. Haar's not soloing this map, especially if Nephenee can double (or has transfers). She's quite possibly better in 2-E, if for no other reason than the fact that Haar is probably going to have to defend the bottom left, with all of its thunder mages, and she's going to get 3+ levels by 2-E from 2-1, 2-2. Haar's maybe getting one level from 2-P and will gain maybe one more by turn 5 since he's so overleveled when he joins.

I'm talking no transfers for any characters here. I don't see the point in wasting an entire playthrough of PoR just to boost a few stats on RD characters.

I'll give you that Elincia and Mordecai are doing good as well, though Elincia is mostly healing and/or cantoing, and Mordecai's usefulness is a bit limited due to gauge, but Nephenee? Nephenee has ass damage output in Part 2, and doesn't even have good durability or anything to compensate for it. A Steel Greatlance weighs her down to the point where she can't double, a Javelin lowers her attack to awful levels... Everyone but Lethe and the CRK is doing better than her here.

Besides, Ike's doing almost as well for 3-P and 3-1, so it's a wash anyway.

3-P is just the Laguz eating everything. It basically doesn't exist. I'll give you 3-1, though.

Fair enough, but you have to account for the fact that he's not gaining nearly as many levels, especially if you crowned him. 20/18/7 is the same as 20/20/5 statwise. I'll grant that he's good in 4-P, but Ike is doing just as well in 4-1, plus he just got promoted and has Ragnell. This means Ike likely has just as much defense and offense (Haar's probably got more strength, Hand axes and javelins are Haar's only ranged choices here unless you assume he's taking tomahawk from Jill or Nolan or one of Nephenee's spears. Ike's had Ragnell for 2 chapters now, plus it's stronger, more accurate, and unbreakable. Plus, he's getting his own authority stars (Mickey doesn't have any) and he has an A-support by now, so he's avoiding everything he's taking damage from anyway. Haar's got the worst affinity, and his only viable supports are really Jill and Marcia. He won't have but maybe a B-Marcia for 4-P and won't have anything with Jill for 4-P. He's also got major avoid trouble as a result (20/18/11 Haar has 74 base avoid at neutral biorhythm), and the mages have 153 hit. In other words, he's facing 80 displayed hit (92 true) against mages who deal 20+ damage to him. Plus, they've got full move in the desert too, and he won't quite be able to one round them either, so he's taking a hit either way, and 2 hits without a ranged weapon. I don't think he's quite as invincible as he appears.

7 out of 57 enemies in 4-3 are mages, one being the boss.

So, yeah, Haar is invincible.

Fair enough, but the DB is keeping it's wing.

Mind explaining that one to me?

As for the 2-3 wing, Ike has just as much claim to it as anyone else, especially if

you're wanting Lehran for the final fight.

That is a valid point, admittedly. If we aren't going for Lehran, though, it's wasted on Ike, frankly.

See above. Ike wants it too for the main BK fight in 4-E-2 and for 3-7. Besides, Ike has to win that fight, so he's got priority.

Ike can just hammer the BK in 4-E.

Ike v. Haar is much closer throughout part 3 than you make it sound

Super flying rape machine of death

vs.

Rape machine

The winner is clear.

and Ike's going to beat Haar in part 4.

Not by a significant margin.

What it comes down to is that Ike's going to endgame, and Haar's not a great choice. That means that Haar's hurting his support partner as a result, and Ike's partner is probably Mia, since Mia wants avoid and Ike could use more attack. Haar's going to end up slowing down for any support partner in the GM's (except maybe Titania, who's stuck with Ike in part 4 anyway, so it's a moot point), so he's stuck without one until 3-11 for Marcia or 4-P for Jill (she's staying with the DB ). Then, Ike goes to the tower and gains more utility than Haar's built up. I'm perfectly comfortable with Haar as #2 unit in the game overall - He is that good. Ike is still better though.

Hurting your support partner by not going to the tower and doing better in the tower, which is comprised of 5 small maps that are royal chow constitutes losing to someone who has been winning for 11 chapters? I think not.

[CT075]

Bottom line: T/Ike > Haar > Ike > Shinon > Jill

[Fayt Zelpher]

Haar's got major doubling problems in 2-E. I'll grant that he's a major help in 2-P, but Elincia, Mordy, and Nephenee are also getting a lot of positive utility here as well. Haar's not soloing this map, especially if Nephenee can double (or has transfers). She's quite possibly better in 2-E, if for no other reason than the fact that Haar is probably going to have to defend the bottom left, with all of its thunder mages, and she's going to get 3+ levels by 2-E from 2-1, 2-2. Haar's maybe getting one level from 2-P and will gain maybe one more by turn 5 since he's so overleveled when he joins. Besides, Ike's doing almost as well for 3-P and 3-1, so it's a wash anyway.

Mordy can't do much other than help clog up the right sides. His guage disallows him from tanking for more than 2 turns. Nephenee(and Brom) need constant surveillance and healing from Elincia, which means Elincia is capable of a heal and an attack every turn with leanne. Maybe 2 attacks if you got lucky the previous enemy phase. Haar is helping this because, he can handle the lower left for 2, maybe 3 turns, as long as he doesn't get hit by a thunder sage. Thunder sages aren't even that threatening to him. At this point its elthunder 5*3 + enemy mag - 7(res)=damage.

2x Thunder Sage lvl 5 (Elthunder, one has stealable Reaper Card)

HP 31, Atk 24, AS 16, Hit 127, Avo 52, DEF 11, RES 15, Crit 18, Ddg 10

1x Thunder Sage lvl 4 (Elthunder)

HP 30, Atk 24, AS 16, Hit 126, Avo 51, DEF 10, RES 14, Crit 18, Ddg 9

19 magic? so that'd be 27 damage, which he can handle in one turn.

Edit: Also in part 3, Haar can handle any sage much better than Ike can because he can move just outside its range, then fly in and OHKO(no counter) with a steel poleax. If Ike tries this, he likely won't OHKO(unless he has ragnell), so he is eating a counter with suck resistence.

A couple of points here. First, Mordy starts with a stone in his inventory, as does Nealuchi (though he automatically uses one use at the beginning of 2-P. It should also be noted that there is a hidden grass in 2-E at (4,15) and Heather can make sure that Mordy gets the grass long before he runs out of his stones and Nealuchi's (she's probably going to get it on turn one). Mordy's not counterattacking while guarding the chokepoint on the right side, so he can afford to use the grass every turn, and he is a tiger, so he's not suffering from the failure that is the cat gauge. Plus, he's taking no damage from everything except for all of seven units since he's not facing sages, and one of them is the boss Nothing is dealing more than 8 damage to him, since she'll get a steel lance that doesn't weigh her down. Neph will gain three levels, which is good for 22 Spd and is doubling everything except SM's, a couple of Halb's, and a couple of Warriors. Haar's stuck with his 20 Spd here, meaning he's got a far short list of things that he can double (17-18 AS is the norm here).

Note the bolded words there. Haar's not OHKOing any of the sages in 2-E without at least 2 Str stat-ups, even with a steel poleax, and I'm not granting him 25 Str by the end of 2-E. That's three levels, and he's only maybe getting 2 by then. (Not to mention that we have to work on our endgame units to make sure they don't fall behind, so all the favoritism is going to Neph here, as she's easily the best endgame unit of the 2-E + CRK units we have here.) As a result, Haar is going to be taking attacks from those sages during player phase. He has base 53 avoid and 105% avoid growth + 5 (Elincia's 3 stars - Ludveck's 2), so I'm willing to accept a neutral biorhythm avoid of 60. He's facing 65 displayed hit (75 true), and I'm not willing to place my money on those odds, especially since the thunder sages are 2HKOing him (Plus, if he's in worst biorhythm and the sage is in best, which is bound to happen at some point, he's facing 85 displayed hit (96 true). Not only that, but, according to your analysis, he has to actually block the ledge as well, whcih means he can't fly to safety. Elincia can't give favoritism to Haar either, and she's got to be healing the rest of the people, plus partner units, so that means that Leanne has to give up a turn to save Haar if he's blocking the ledge. Personally, if I'm playing this level, I'd think about using Marcia to pick off the sages, but then I have to worry about crossbows, and I can't leave Leanne there either to vigor her to safety. That means I've got Marcia picking of the sages from above the stairs with a javelin while Brom blocks the top of the stairs. That way, Leanne can be put to use vigoring two units per turn while Mordy blocks the right chokepoint, Nephenee is picking off weak units on the right side, Calill is working with Neph since most of the right side is weak-Res generals, and Elincia is healing. Nealuchi can start picking off things during turn 5 when his gauge fills (or turn 3 w/ a shot of grass), and Lethe can sit in a corner and rot for all I care. Anything Haar does is a bonus at this point. Meaning: Haar's utility on 2-E is vastly overstated.

Edit: See Camtech's post above. I play with transfers since I have a transfer file with easy access, and you don't play them for the same reason. As a result, you prefer Haar, and I do better with Ike. The difference is small at best and it's pretty clear that these are the two best units in the game. I'm done arguing this, so let's just agree to disagree and move on to the next topic of discussion, alright?

Edited January 4, 2010 by Randomly Predictable

[CT075]

Haar's got major doubling problems in 2-E. I'll grant that he's a major help in 2-P, but Elincia, Mordy, and Nephenee are also getting a lot of positive utility here as well. Haar's not soloing this map, especially if Nephenee can double (or has transfers). She's quite possibly better in 2-E, if for no other reason than the fact that Haar is probably going to have to defend the bottom left, with all of its thunder mages, and she's going to get 3+ levels by 2-E from 2-1, 2-2. Haar's maybe getting one level from 2-P and will gain maybe one more by turn 5 since he's so overleveled when he joins. Besides, Ike's doing almost as well for 3-P and 3-1, so it's a wash anyway.

Mordy can't do much other than help clog up the right sides. His guage disallows him from tanking for more than 2 turns. Nephenee(and Brom) need constant surveillance and healing from Elincia, which means Elincia is capable of a heal and an attack every turn with leanne. Maybe 2 attacks if you got lucky the previous enemy phase. Haar is helping this because, he can handle the lower left for 2, maybe 3 turns, as long as he doesn't get hit by a thunder sage. Thunder sages aren't even that threatening to him. At this point its elthunder 5*3 + enemy mag - 7(res)=damage.

2x Thunder Sage lvl 5 (Elthunder, one has stealable Reaper Card)

HP 31, Atk 24, AS 16, Hit 127, Avo 52, DEF 11, RES 15, Crit 18, Ddg 10

1x Thunder Sage lvl 4 (Elthunder)

HP 30, Atk 24, AS 16, Hit 126, Avo 51, DEF 10, RES 14, Crit 18, Ddg 9

19 magic? so that'd be 27 damage, which he can handle in one turn.

Edit: Also in part 3, Haar can handle any sage much better than Ike can because he can move just outside its range, then fly in and OHKO(no counter) with a steel poleax. If Ike tries this, he likely won't OHKO(unless he has ragnell), so he is eating a counter with suck resistence.

A couple of points here. First, Mordy starts with a stone in his inventory, as does Nealuchi (though he automatically uses one use at the beginning of 2-P. It should also be noted that there is a hidden grass in 2-E at (4,15) and Heather can make sure that Mordy gets the grass long before he runs out of his stones and Nealuchi's (she's probably going to get it on turn one). Mordy's not counterattacking while guarding the chokepoint on the right side, so he can afford to use the grass every turn, and he is a tiger, so he's not suffering from the failure that is the cat gauge. Plus, he's taking no damage from everything except for all of seven units since he's not facing sages, and one of them is the boss Nothing is dealing more than 8 damage to him, since she'll get a steel lance that doesn't weigh her down. Neph will gain three levels, which is good for 22 Spd and is doubling everything except SM's, a couple of Halb's, and a couple of Warriors. Haar's stuck with his 20 Spd here, meaning he's got a far short list of things that he can double (17-18 AS is the norm here).

Note the bolded words there. Haar's not OHKOing any of the sages in 2-E without at least 2 Str stat-ups, even with a steel poleax, and I'm not granting him 25 Str by the end of 2-E. That's three levels, and he's only maybe getting 2 by then. (Not to mention that we have to work on our endgame units to make sure they don't fall behind, so all the favoritism is going to Neph here, as she's easily the best endgame unit of the 2-E + CRK units we have here.) As a result, Haar is going to be taking attacks from those sages during player phase. He has base 53 avoid and 105% avoid growth + 5 (Elincia's 3 stars - Ludveck's 2), so I'm willing to accept a neutral biorhythm avoid of 60. He's facing 65 displayed hit (75 true), and I'm not willing to place my money on those odds, especially since the thunder sages are 2HKOing him (Plus, if he's in worst biorhythm and the sage is in best, which is bound to happen at some point, he's facing 85 displayed hit (96 true). Not only that, but, according to your analysis, he has to actually block the ledge as well, whcih means he can't fly to safety. Elincia can't give favoritism to Haar either, and she's got to be healing the rest of the people, plus partner units, so that means that Leanne has to give up a turn to save Haar if he's blocking the ledge. Personally, if I'm playing this level, I'd think about using Marcia to pick off the sages, but then I have to worry about crossbows, and I can't leave Leanne there either to vigor her to safety. That means I've got Marcia picking of the sages from above the stairs with a javelin while Brom blocks the top of the stairs. That way, Leanne can be put to use vigoring two units per turn while Mordy blocks the right chokepoint, Nephenee is picking off weak units on the right side, Calill is working with Neph since most of the right side is weak-Res generals, and Elincia is healing. Nealuchi can start picking off things during turn 5 when his gauge fills (or turn 3 w/ a shot of grass), and Lethe can sit in a corner and rot for all I care. Anything Haar does is a bonus at this point. Meaning: Haar's utility on 2-E is vastly overstated.

Edit: See Camtech's post above. I play with transfers since I have a transfer file with easy access, and you don't play them for the same reason. As a result, you prefer Haar, and I do better with Ike. The difference is small at best and it's pretty clear that these are the two best units in the game. I'm done arguing this, so let's just agree to disagree and move on to the next topic of discussion, alright?

You're underestimating Haar's 2-E. Firstly, Haar has the easiest time running around to get the items. Thunder Sages 2HKO him w/o doubling, so A. Haar WTFPWNS him, or B. Elincia quads him to death. Also, he's the best choice for a wall in that chapter besides maybe Mordy (Elincia has Crossbow weakness, Brom has Hammer weakness, Mordy has gauge issues, lolLethe, Neph isn't so durable, LOLCALILL). Neal, too.

[Fayt Zelpher]

Haar's got major doubling problems in 2-E. I'll grant that he's a major help in 2-P, but Elincia, Mordy, and Nephenee are also getting a lot of positive utility here as well. Haar's not soloing this map, especially if Nephenee can double (or has transfers). She's quite possibly better in 2-E, if for no other reason than the fact that Haar is probably going to have to defend the bottom left, with all of its thunder mages, and she's going to get 3+ levels by 2-E from 2-1, 2-2. Haar's maybe getting one level from 2-P and will gain maybe one more by turn 5 since he's so overleveled when he joins. Besides, Ike's doing almost as well for 3-P and 3-1, so it's a wash anyway.

Mordy can't do much other than help clog up the right sides. His guage disallows him from tanking for more than 2 turns. Nephenee(and Brom) need constant surveillance and healing from Elincia, which means Elincia is capable of a heal and an attack every turn with leanne. Maybe 2 attacks if you got lucky the previous enemy phase. Haar is helping this because, he can handle the lower left for 2, maybe 3 turns, as long as he doesn't get hit by a thunder sage. Thunder sages aren't even that threatening to him. At this point its elthunder 5*3 + enemy mag - 7(res)=damage.

2x Thunder Sage lvl 5 (Elthunder, one has stealable Reaper Card)

HP 31, Atk 24, AS 16, Hit 127, Avo 52, DEF 11, RES 15, Crit 18, Ddg 10

1x Thunder Sage lvl 4 (Elthunder)

HP 30, Atk 24, AS 16, Hit 126, Avo 51, DEF 10, RES 14, Crit 18, Ddg 9

19 magic? so that'd be 27 damage, which he can handle in one turn.

Edit: Also in part 3, Haar can handle any sage much better than Ike can because he can move just outside its range, then fly in and OHKO(no counter) with a steel poleax. If Ike tries this, he likely won't OHKO(unless he has ragnell), so he is eating a counter with suck resistence.

A couple of points here. First, Mordy starts with a stone in his inventory, as does Nealuchi (though he automatically uses one use at the beginning of 2-P. It should also be noted that there is a hidden grass in 2-E at (4,15) and Heather can make sure that Mordy gets the grass long before he runs out of his stones and Nealuchi's (she's probably going to get it on turn one). Mordy's not counterattacking while guarding the chokepoint on the right side, so he can afford to use the grass every turn, and he is a tiger, so he's not suffering from the failure that is the cat gauge. Plus, he's taking no damage from everything except for all of seven units since he's not facing sages, and one of them is the boss Nothing is dealing more than 8 damage to him, since she'll get a steel lance that doesn't weigh her down. Neph will gain three levels, which is good for 22 Spd and is doubling everything except SM's, a couple of Halb's, and a couple of Warriors. Haar's stuck with his 20 Spd here, meaning he's got a far short list of things that he can double (17-18 AS is the norm here).

Note the bolded words there. Haar's not OHKOing any of the sages in 2-E without at least 2 Str stat-ups, even with a steel poleax, and I'm not granting him 25 Str by the end of 2-E. That's three levels, and he's only maybe getting 2 by then. (Not to mention that we have to work on our endgame units to make sure they don't fall behind, so all the favoritism is going to Neph here, as she's easily the best endgame unit of the 2-E + CRK units we have here.) As a result, Haar is going to be taking attacks from those sages during player phase. He has base 53 avoid and 105% avoid growth + 5 (Elincia's 3 stars - Ludveck's 2), so I'm willing to accept a neutral biorhythm avoid of 60. He's facing 65 displayed hit (75 true), and I'm not willing to place my money on those odds, especially since the thunder sages are 2HKOing him (Plus, if he's in worst biorhythm and the sage is in best, which is bound to happen at some point, he's facing 85 displayed hit (96 true). Not only that, but, according to your analysis, he has to actually block the ledge as well, whcih means he can't fly to safety. Elincia can't give favoritism to Haar either, and she's got to be healing the rest of the people, plus partner units, so that means that Leanne has to give up a turn to save Haar if he's blocking the ledge. Personally, if I'm playing this level, I'd think about using Marcia to pick off the sages, but then I have to worry about crossbows, and I can't leave Leanne there either to vigor her to safety. That means I've got Marcia picking of the sages from above the stairs with a javelin while Brom blocks the top of the stairs. That way, Leanne can be put to use vigoring two units per turn while Mordy blocks the right chokepoint, Nephenee is picking off weak units on the right side, Calill is working with Neph since most of the right side is weak-Res generals, and Elincia is healing. Nealuchi can start picking off things during turn 5 when his gauge fills (or turn 3 w/ a shot of grass), and Lethe can sit in a corner and rot for all I care. Anything Haar does is a bonus at this point. Meaning: Haar's utility on 2-E is vastly overstated.

Edit: See Camtech's post above. I play with transfers since I have a transfer file with easy access, and you don't play them for the same reason. As a result, you prefer Haar, and I do better with Ike. The difference is small at best and it's pretty clear that these are the two best units in the game. I'm done arguing this, so let's just agree to disagree and move on to the next topic of discussion, alright?

You're underestimating Haar's 2-E. Firstly, Haar has the easiest time running around to get the items. Thunder Sages 2HKO him w/o doubling, so A. Haar WTFPWNS him, or B. Elincia quads him to death. Also, he's the best choice for a wall in that chapter besides maybe Mordy (Elincia has Crossbow weakness, Brom has Hammer weakness, Mordy has gauge issues, lolLethe, Neph isn't so durable, LOLCALILL). Neal, too.

Brom and Marcia are going on the left side where there are no hammer generals. Mordy's eating grass on his turn while guarding the right chokepoint, and Neph and Calill are above the sandbags on the right side chokepoint, and neither is taking more than one hit per round. Elincia heals and Leanne vigors Elincia plus one other character each turn. Haar can do whatever to make the battle easier, but he's not needed. Plus, he's not OHKOing the sages, so he's facing an attack during player phase and maybe another one during enemy phase if left exposed. Neither Elincia, Nealuchi, or Marcia are able to go down there because of crossbow issues. I don't want to risk Haar against thunder sages since he is the second best character in the game. The physic staff he gives Elincia before 2-E doesn't hurt either.

[RNG Princess]

IMO

Haar is kind of "extra" in part 2, it won't turn any harder w/out him. If he was in part 1 the weakest team he would be much more useful. An unused part 2 Haar is durable and tankish in part 3.

Jill is more useful in Dawn Brigade than Crimea team Haar, and she is a better contender for that angelic robe. Sothe/Volug/Nailah/Tauroneo/BK are a waste of exp, so the kills would be better used on her or anyone else worthy. Her utility is something to make her a better unit to use.

Ike and Shinnon are in a godlier team, so its not like a Shinnon free team can't function just as good.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Queen_Elincia