FE7 HHM tier list unranked/efficiency v3

[Florete]

I had an idea. Since I don't like going straight from Upper Mid to Lower Mid, I didn't want to create new tier gaps, and I don't think anyone in this game really has bottom tier performance anyway, I renamed everything under Upper Mid accordingly.

[Inui]

Why does removal of Priscilla's only true saving grace against Serra (slightly better Experience rank) AND EVERYONE ELSE LIKE THE CAVALIERS AND OSWIN make her better in this list? Serra still kinda stomps her in combat and overall power by promoting way earlier.

Guy slaughters Eliwood in every way possible, so Idk what's up with that one either...

Edited March 6, 2010 by Inui

[Florete]

Why does removal of Priscilla's only true saving grace against Serra (slightly better Experience rank) make her better in this list? Serra still kinda stomps her in combat and overall power by promoting way earlier.

Because she doesn't promote way earlier. Serra only had a big level lead because LHM Tactics is lenient enough, but this list doesn't assume S ranking of LHM, so Serra's level takes a dive.

Guy slaughters Eliwood in every way possible, so Idk what's up with that one either...

Not sure of that one myself.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Inui]

Even if you blitzkrieg LHM, Serra's still got a decent level lead on her (around 5 or so, I'd say), and Priscilla loses "I contribute more to EXP" on this one, so it should balance out to making Serra still better. Why are they both top tier, anyways? Without the Experience rank, I'm having trouble seeing it. Kent and Sain slaughtering everything in their path is worth more to me than staves and promoting super late if I'm just trying to finish as quickly as possible.

I'd put a tier gap between him and Eliwood and probably shoot Guy over Oswin. Guy's offense contributes to finishing chapters pretty quickly. He's very much like Rutger in FE 6. Of course he's not as extreme, but the similarities are there for sure. Eliwood is average to above average overall. Late promotion ftl.

[Florete]

Even if you blitzkrieg LHM, Serra's still got a decent level lead on her (around 5 or so, I'd say), and Priscilla loses "I contribute more to EXP" on this one, so it should balance out to making Serra still better.

I don't think so. Considering LHM could easily be beaten without Serra getting a single point of experience, and some maps in LHM can be beaten in as few as 2-3 turns, I don't see her coming out any higher than maybe level 3, and then she also loses the slight durability advantage she had in ranked, making Priscilla clearly better until either promote (which is probably around the same time, and since you'll likely only focus on one probably won't be too much later than in ranked) due to Move and very likely still better afterward.

Why are they both top tier, anyways? Without the Experience rank, I'm having trouble seeing it. Kent and Sain slaughtering everything in their path is worth more to me than staves and promoting super late if I'm just trying to finish as quickly as possible.

I don't know, healing is still pretty important, especially earlier on, and when they promote they are generally pretty good combat units as well, and it's like a free combat unit too since they didn't take CEXP to get there like another random fight would. They might be able to drop within the tier, but I don't think I could see them going out of it.

I'd put a tier gap between him and Eliwood and probably shoot Guy over Oswin. Guy's offense contributes to finishing chapters pretty quickly. He's very much like Rutger in FE 6. Of course he's not as extreme, but the similarities are there for sure. Eliwood is average to above average overall. Late promotion ftl.

I don't think I'd go too far with a Rutger comparison. That guy had more crit and in a game where ORKOing wasn't quite as common and also not generally as Lance heavy.

[dondon151]

Guy slaughters Eliwood in every way possible, so Idk what's up with that one either...

Lances, 1-2 range, +1 move after promotion.

Though earlygame matters more than lategame, but I wouldn't put Guy an entire tier above Eliwood. Lack of 2 range hurts more in this game than in FE6 HM because there being able to rape face on enemy phase was the defining quality of a top tier unit, while here units down to lower mid don't really have much trouble doing that.

EDIT: Or rather, mid. It was lower mid before the tier renaming.

Edited March 6, 2010 by dondon151

[Inui]

Guy is similar to Rutger in terms of earlygame h4x is where I was going with that. So what if Eliwood is better in the last few chapters of the game? Guy is instantly much better and stays that way for almost the entire game. Even if Eliwood promotes first between him and Lyn, Guy has built up a big usefulness and level lead on Eliwood, and Eliwood only has a handful of chapters to make that up. Eliwood doesn't have his precious 1~2 range until Chapter 26 at the earliest, meanwhile Guy has the best player phase offense forever.

I don't find healing to be all that useful if I'm blasting through stuff. Maybe early on when you need it, but the Kent x Sain support is still very easy to build under these standards, and it makes them very durable. I'd honestly put their contributions over earlygame healing in terms of completion speed.

[Colonel M]

Actually, I can sort of attest to the Healer thing. Granted, I didn't go much further in the game yet, but they seem to be used sparingly. Not saying they should plummet, but since tier differences are small anyway and I can't say Serra and Priscilla will reach Level 20 or whatnot within reasonable times (at least IMO), it hurts their performance a lot.

I'm neutral on Guy vs. Eliwood. I'm not a fan of either, and maybe I'd tilt a little more toward Eliwood's lategame, but I will admit that Guy has a good earlygame lead against him.

[Dat Nick]

I don't buy Guy in Top tier, he's got too many problems (Durability, no 2 range, no horse) to be considered there. But I can certainly agree he's better than Eliwood, although I'm sure people have figured out by now I think Eliwood is massively overrated.

[Tangerine]

Jeez, top tier is stacked on this list <_<.

[Inui]

Guy isn't top tier. He's just a tier better than Eliwood in efficiency. Eliwood has the Experience rank to make his late promotion not a horrible thing in a ranked tier list. On this one? He kinda sucks.

I'm glad the good Colonel agrees with me about healers. They are going to level up really slowly based on these standards and often get left in the dust.

[Colonel M]

The problem comes back to two things: whether in Lyn Mode you favor Serra (I admit I used her just about every humane turn possible in LHM and Level 7 is about the highest I might ever see) or how much a healer is needed. Yeah, you still need them. Not denying that. Their roles are just a little less significant enough to hurt their leveling progress. Even in my so-called semi-efficient run I had something like 7 Priscilla by the boat and not quite a Level 10 Serra (this is just going off the top of my head). Their roles are required as healers, but seeing them as viable combat units is a different story. Especially when you consider their 10/1 selves kind of suck:

10/1 Serra - 24.5 HP | 7.5 Mag | 9.7 Skl | 12.6 Spd | 11.4 Luck | 5.35 Def | 11.95 Res

10/1 Priscilla - 22.15 HP | 10.8 Mag | 10.5 Skl | 10.8 Spd | 11.55 Luck | 6.05 Def | 12.5 Res

Of course I wouldn't really consider promoting them at 10/1, but just an example how they still look... rather rustic compared to other combat units, which leads me to believe that they should be High Tier due to their healing utility in general. Top is a little difficult to buy, I guess, for me since I barely seen Moulder High Tier in FE8's (in a draft runthrough I had a hard time leveling him and I had shit like Ross | Eirika solo | Vanessa | Lute).

EDIT: Kind of agree with Guy > Eliwood. Guy beats him out earlygame, promotes by C22, then just seems to beat him until Eliwood promotes, and then he's a bit behind. Granted, Eliwood has his movement and Javelins, but I don't think it completely erases Guy's advantages here. Eliwood's biggest win would probably be Cog of Destiny. I will say this though: Eliwood has Guy beaten defensively pretty easily by promotion. Even beforehand Eliwood can sort of get the upper hand back and forth from time to time. After Eliwood promotes, the enemies in C26 would have about 24% Displayed, 14% if he has B Lowen. This is against Wyvern Knights btw. Meanwhile, 20/5 Guy has to pick up that Lancereaver from time to time just so he doesn't instantly lose to Eliwood in Avoid (and durability).

Still, I'd say Guy wins this at the end of the day unless we consider Eliwood's upper hand with deployment slots as well, which might make it more complicated than it seems.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Florete]

EDIT: Or rather, mid. It was lower mid before the tier renaming.

Not that I'm seeing this as a complaint, but if anyone has an issue with what I did, speak up.

I don't find healing to be all that useful if I'm blasting through stuff. Maybe early on when you need it, but the Kent x Sain support is still very easy to build under these standards, and it makes them very durable. I'd honestly put their contributions over earlygame healing in terms of completion speed.

Kent x Sain is Anima x Wind. How does 1 Def and 7 avoid make them "very durable?" I doubt it's likely to change much.

In any case, I find healing mostly useful earlier but also quite often later. Enemies may suck in this but they are very numerous so it's easy to get unlucky, and then maps like Genesis and Cog of Destiny almost require 1 or more good staff user. You get Pent, but he's only one person. I also find that as long as you focus on one with the other as backup, you should be able to get your one promoted fairly early, or at least earlier than if you tried to split heals between both.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Dat Nick]

For what it's worth, I don't think Eliwood down to Upper Mid is unreasonable at all.

When you are comparing with Bartre earlygame, you have issues (In fact, Bartre is BETTER as long as he's not fighting a swordman/is getting doubled) so let's not go hyping Eliwood's availability win versus an Upper Mid tier unit (In this case, Harken) here. Midgame he's getting better, but he's still not really performing well since axes only really exist on the Dread Isle. Late into his pre-promotion levels, he's back to mediocrity. I'll admit he stops sucking once he promotes, i.e around the time Harken joins. Regardless:

20/1 Eliwood, A Hector (Which isn't even a viable support anymore because of the move gap but whatever): 37 HP, 15.55 str, 15.6 spd, 15 def

Base Harken: 42 HP, 23 str, 18 spd, 16 def

His horse can also work against him at times, due to terrain, and his horse is just a 7 move horse. So sometimes his mobility win isn't even existant. Sure, he has "more accurate" 1-2 range weapons, but Harken's skill and enemy's preference towards Lances cancels that.

Like I said, I'd be fine with his availability win justifying a gap here if Eliwood could actually do anything with it, but it's been the whole game up to Harken's jointime and Eliwood hasn't stood out very well at all.

Can you really justify a tier gap here, when Harken's arguably better?

[Florete]

I think Eliwood down to Upper Mid could be reasonable. And what does everyone think about Pent, Harken, and Geitz possibly going to High? They're similar to Percival in FE6 and he's Top.

[CATS]

Percival while he exists is significantly better than units ranked below him in almost all cases (the only exception I can really see would be Gonzales). With Pent, at least, this isn't the case. A leveled and supported Erk is similar or superior to Pent stat-wise. Maybe you could make a case for Harken, since his stats are pretty ridiculous, but he has even less availability than Pent. Speaking of availability, that's the other difference between these guys and Percy. Pent joins with 8 chapters left; Harken with only 6-7. Percival joins with about 14 chapters left iirc.

[Ether]

But then that still accounts for a tier gap between Percy and them,technically.And comparing Pent to Erk,A staves is fun,and everyone and their third cousin twice removed seems to want a guiding ring.

[CATS]

Erk can get a Guiding Ring by the time Pent joins, and that's not really the point anyways. The point is that Pent isn't exceptional in combat when he joins, while Percival is. And Percival has two significant advantages over Pent, he wins in both performance and availability; the former accounts for a tier gap, then the second one accounts for another. That's how I see it, atleast.

A staves would be alot better if you needed more than 1 or 2 units with that. It makes Pent better on CoD, but I wouldn't see it as being significant on other chapters.

[Dat Nick]

First things first. Which is the matter of Eliwood down (I bet Mekkah's going to give me an earful about lack of detail, too...)

[CATS]

Eliwood promotes at the start of 26 and Harken joining towards the tail end of 27, so Eliwood shouldn't be 20/1. At 20/3 with A Hector, he's losing in Atk by alot, but losing in other areas only barely or none at all. Harken wins in Hp by a little bit, but Eliwood has almost 20 more Avo. I'd be inclined to side with Eliwood on durability. Harken has a small AS lead, but Eliwood has beastly CEV that matters against Luna Druids. Harken can't fight those because they can insta-kill him with a crit; Eliwood has over 30 CEV and can't get crit'd, which is actually quite useful as few units can get enough CEV to negate crit against those guys.

I'd say Eliwood wins. I don't see Harken being significantly better after he joins, and Eliwood has alot of forced chapters earlier. Like, a lot. 12, 13, 13x, 14, 20, 22, 26, and Final off the top of my head, I feel like I'm forgetting atleast one or two. That's enough to be quite significant even if you discount all the rest of his availability advantage. Considering they're pretty close after Harken shows up, I could see this being worth a tier gap.

Edited March 7, 2010 by CATS

[Dat Nick]

Harken wins in Hp by a little bit, but Eliwood has almost 20 more Avo.

And when Hector isn't in range? Hell, we have to be stingy and cater to the EXP rank, which makes it all the more likely Hector won't be seeing a lick of combat, meaning at this stage in the game you have to "protect" him and guide him towards the throne.

Or how about when an enemy uses a Lance, and then Eliwood's avoid lead disappears completely? Or what if both scenarios happen?

But Eliwood has beastly CEV that matters against Luna Druids.

What on earth is it with you and Luna druids? Every time Harken's name come up, you harp how he gets critkilled by Luna druids. Cool it with the fucking Luna druids, they're not the only enemy in the game. In fact, they're rather uncommon, and easy to avoid with units you don't want them attacking when they exist.

I'd say Eliwood wins. I don't see Harken being significantly better after he joins, and Eliwood has alot of forced chapters earlier. Like, a lot. 12, 13, 13x, 14, 20, 22, 26, and Final off the top of my head

Hey, that's great, except you didn't read or even acknowledge the portion of my post where I said this matters little because he's still one of your worst units/performing poorly during a majority of this time.

[Inui]

I think Eliwood down to Upper Mid could be reasonable. And what does everyone think about Pent, Harken, and Geitz possibly going to High? They're similar to Percival in FE6 and he's Top.

I'd agree on Pent, but not the other two. I really do think Pent is kinda underrated these days. I think Eliwood is actually slightly better than Geitz and Harken. His availability is good and he's never terrible until late into the midgame, and that changes if he promotes before Lyn.

[Colonel M]

I think Upper Mid Eliwood is pretty reasonable to be honest. If I need to back myself up, I will do so.

I also want to discuss Bartre up when I get the chance, but I'll cover it when I can.

[CATS]

And when Hector isn't in range? Hell, we have to be stingy and cater to the EXP rank, which makes it all the more likely Hector won't be seeing a lick of combat, meaning at this stage in the game you have to "protect" him and guide him towards the throne.

Hector doesn't need to be protected. His Hp/Def is among the highest on the team and he has 1-2 range. He isn't getting attacked.

The fact that he isn't fighting means he has nothing better to do than follow Eliwood around and transfer bonuses.

Or how about when an enemy uses a Lance, and then Eliwood's avoid lead disappears completely? Or what if both scenarios happen?

Yes, Harken likely wins defense against lances. Eliwood wins against everything else.

What on earth is it with you and Luna druids? Every time Harken's name come up, you harp how he gets critkilled by Luna druids. Cool it with the fucking Luna druids, they're not the only enemy in the game. In fact, they're rather uncommon, and easy to avoid with units you don't want them attacking when they exist.

So what? They exist (in BBD, CoD and SoT iirc) and Eliwood has the advantage against them. Again, if anything this is quite significant, since Eliwood is one of only a few units who can safely fight them at all. What enemy types exist where Harken wins by this much?

Hey, that's great, except you didn't read or even acknowledge the portion of my post where I said this matters little because he's still one of your worst units/performing poorly during a majority of this time.

Even if this is true, it's irrelevant. During a chapter where Eliwood's forced and Harken doesn't exist, Eliwood's still contributing much more than Harken is, even if he's worse than Kent/Sain/etc.

[Dat Nick]

"Hector doesn't need to be protected. His Hp/Def is among the highest on the team and he has 1-2 range. He isn't getting attacked."

You DO know I had the word "protect" in quotation marks, right? He's not being protected because he's in danger, he's being "protected" because we can't have him getting attacked, which would cause him to counterattack, and thus spoil the EXP rank.

Oh, and if you're tagging Hector along with Eliwood 24/7 (which isn't always a good idea, because Hector cannot be allowed where the main action is, seeing as how he can't be attacked once he level caps and all) then it just means that Harken wins mobility for sure because he doesn't have a 5 move brick weighing him down.

Yes, Harken likely wins defense against lances. Eliwood wins against everything else.

And here is where I call you out for your over-generalization of the issue, because you conveniently skipped over the fact that FE7 enemies tend to favor lances.

And he still only wins when Hector is around.

So what? They exist (in BBD, CoD and SoT iirc)

They exist? So what? There are so few of them it doesn't amount to anything. Try all you want, but you're not going to hand-waved Harken's advantages over Eliwood with "Luna Druids lol" which is basically what you did since you addressed no other enemy type in your post.

Here, I'll even be nice and clarify the fact that Luna Druids alone is a retardedly weak argument:

28: You were wrong, not a single druid, let alone a Luna. http://fireemblemwod.net/fe7/guiafe7/cap28h.htm

28x: ONE. And he'll be way off by himself with his bozo shaman buddy by the time you reach him anyway, and I'm assuming he has Luna: http://fireemblemwod.net/fe7/guiafe7/cap28xh.htm

29: whut? http://fireemblemwod.net/fe7/guiafe7/cap29h.htm

30: no http://fireemblemwod.net/fe7/guiafe7/cap30h.htm

31: 3. One reinforcement. http://fireemblemwod.net/fe7/guiafe7/cap30h.htm

32: I don't know, a map isn't uploaded, but going off of Eliwood route, there's one...with Nosferatu

32x: None

Endgame pt 1: Again, I don't know cuz there isn't a map uploaded, but there's one by Nergal, who is entirely avoidable for obvious reasons

So essentially, you're getting your panties all in a bunch over four individual enemies, ASSUMING they all have Luna. That's not enough to convince me of an actual problem at all, sorry, and it's certainly supporting your argument very poorly. Find something else to harp on. Something that's actually a constant problem with Harken.

Even if this is true, it's irrelevant.

No, it's not. If you suck or are mediocre all game, I really don't care how often you're available or how often you've been forced. Are we going to give Gordin ten times the credit he deserves just because he joins in C1 and is forced for three chapters? No. I really can't say Eliwood is one of your better units at any point in the game before he promotes. Him being forced alone is a weak argument, since for the portion of the earlygame that he IS forced, he's arguably your worst unit. I can use that to devalue his "forced contributions", easily. Oh, and in C12 he's going to kill almost nothing, so that chapter may as well not even exist.

It's being mediocre or just outright bad for half the game vs just joining right away and kicking ass. They cancel each other out. I could easily argue that the kicking ass out of the gate>dealing with Eliwood's suck for more of it rather than just canceling it out, but I don't have to do that to prove that there isn't a tier difference.

Edited March 7, 2010 by s Portsman