FE7 HHM tier list unranked/efficiency v3

[dondon151]

The example itself wasn't the intended focus. As for the example itself, even comparing Titania to Boyd, for example, wouldn't Titania still have the opportunity cost of Tiamat (and one of the other units that could have been fielded besides Titania)? Boyd only has the opportunity cost of the (x+1)th best unit that could be fielded when the max deployment is x. Titania has that plus Tiamat. (well, not really plus. More like max[utility of (x+1)th best unit, Tiamat].)

Opportunity cost is examined on a per-decision basis, is that right? The decision of having Titania or Tiamat on your team is independent of choosing to deploy them on the map.

If we said that Tiamat was 10 utils worse than Titania, then we would assign +5 to Titania and -5 to Tiamat (or +10/-10 relative to each other). But if we pretended that Titania didn't exist, and the player was forced to use Tiamat, then let's say that Tiamat is 80 utils better than the x+1th unit while Boyd is 70 utils better than the x+1th unit (+80/+70). And if we replaced Tiamat with Titania, then the spread would be like (+90/+70) This doesn't reflect reality, though, so we factor back in the initial differential. For Titania, Tiamat, and Boyd, it would then be +95/+75/+70. Or something like that.

I suppose that's how it would be viewed from the current tier list perspective. Assuming complete efficiency, you're right; the worse one will never be chosen because she has greater cost than benefit.

Edited March 9, 2010 by dondon151

[Inference]

Bad durability forever

She has the evasion rate of a goddess, gets a free promotional item, and exclusive access to the best sword in the game. How does that merit such a low rank?

Fiora flies, eventually has WTC and a better promotion.

Lyn comes in at the beginning of the game and joins HHM earlier than she does. Fiora comes in underleveled with unimpressive bases and growths, and has a pretty low constitution for her weapon type. There's absolutely no way flight and promotion make her better than someone who's useful throughout the entire game.

There's no way I can take this tier list seriously if Lyn is any lower than Top.

Oh and lol at Marcus being Top. Here's some efficiency logic for you: he's useless lategame and he's a promoted unit, so he can't get any kills without draining experience. He takes up a slot for a permanent party member any time his deployment is optional, so he's only good for chip damage a few chapters before he's useless. His utility is limited, his lategame potential is nil, and he doesn't deserve to be so far above units that actually end up helping to beat the game.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Inference

[Dat Nick]

She has the evasion rate of a goddess,

uh no

lolWindaffinity

[Inference]

Why does she need supports to help her evade when her starting stats and growths help her do it well enough without?

EDIT: Oh and supports take forever to get, so I don't see any reason why they should be considered in any valid argument on an efficiency playthrough. That's just a terrible argument for units that need a boost to do their job well when there are plenty of offensive units that can do well without (Raven, Oswin, Lyn, etc.)

Edited March 9, 2010 by Inference

[Colonel M]

Marcus's contributions during the earlygame are almost unmatchable. His 8 Mov and good stats net him freedom to do almost whatever the fuck he pleases. He can go visit that village in 13X with little problems and be near the team again in a flash. He effectively ORKOes without much trouble (he can miss out sometimes), and his doubling issue, which is his biggest flaw, is fixed through levels + a Speedwing or using a Brave Weapon. Not to mention his net utility can last for a large portion of the game just because enemy AS is so atrocious in this game. 12 AS doubles most of the units in C22 on for a while, which he nets in ~4 levels.

[Florete]

There's no way I can take this tier list seriously if Lyn is any lower than Top.

Oh and lol at Marcus being Top. Here's some efficiency logic for you: he's useless lategame and he's a promoted unit, so he can't get any kills without draining experience. He takes up a slot for a permanent party member any time his deployment is optional, so he's only good for chip damage a few chapters before he's useless. His utility is limited, his lategame potential is nil, and he doesn't deserve to be so far above units that actually end up helping to beat the game.

There's no way I can take you seriously when you say things like this.

[Inui]

Hey it's 2004 logic. Sup buddy?

[SuperTroll Maxim Lapierre]

Apparently, some people don't understand Tier Lists aren't a compilation of who gets the sexiest endgame stats. This particular list is about getting the least amount of turns as possible and its for Hector Hard Mode, which has a so many enemies that Marcus killing a few enemies isn't going to really be the end of the world. Not to mention that since the other ranks are disregarded, stat-boosting items are free game. Not to mention that using Marcus with restraint on the Normal Modes hardly hurts anyone.

Lyn's durability is also crappy. If you don't use her enough, she's getting one-shotted by the Purge Bishop in Ch. 24

Edited March 9, 2010 by Al Davis?

[Inui]

Lyn's durability is also crappy. If you don't use her enough, she's getting one-shotted by the Purge Bishop in Ch. 24

Do you mean 25? Four-Fanged Offense has a Bolting Sage.

[SuperTroll Maxim Lapierre]

Do you mean 25? Four-Fanged Offense has a Bolting Sage.

I damn certain it's a Bishop with Purge.

Visual evidence:

[Inui]

Oh. I forget that chapter exists sometimes.

[Inference]

Marcus's contributions during the earlygame are almost unmatchable. His 8 Mov and good stats net him freedom to do almost whatever the fuck he pleases. He can go visit that village in 13X with little problems and be near the team again in a flash. He effectively ORKOes without much trouble (he can miss out sometimes), and his doubling issue, which is his biggest flaw, is fixed through levels + a Speedwing or using a Brave Weapon. Not to mention his net utility can last for a large portion of the game just because enemy AS is so atrocious in this game. 12 AS doubles most of the units in C22 on for a while, which he nets in ~4 levels.

Since this is an "efficiency" tier list, allow me to play devil's advocate here.

Marcus is a promoted unit. He gets 1~3 experience per kill early game, so ORKOing anything is a problem with him, due to the opportunity cost of another unit that could have taken that kill. Using Marcus to kill sacrifices the experience points of ANY non-promoted unit that could have capitalized on the opportunity to gain more experience points, and subsequently level up. His EXP gains are terrible for most of the game, and he no statistic potential, so giving him kills costs the rest of the team experience points for something they could have done just as easily with him sitting on the sidelines.

Marcus's earlygame usage is tantamount to bailout. If you have no other possible moves and another unit could die enemy phase, send him in to kill it. Otherwise, you're wasting experience on a unit that becomes obsolete in a few chapters.

On the other hand, Raven is an extremely capable offensive unit from the time he joins to the end of the game. He comes in with high bases, high growths, and a comparably low level. You don't lose any experience having him fight and he can get you through the game at no cost to your team. I don't understand how that's any less efficient than using Marcus for a few chapters and then benching him.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Inference

[Inui]

Nobody cares about EXP. There is no Experience rank. No unit matches Marcus's ability to shave turns off of chapters.

Marcus becomes obsolete.

Totally, lol.

[SuperTroll Maxim Lapierre]

Since this is an "efficiency" tier list, allow me to play devil's advocate here.

Marcus is a promoted unit. He gets 1~3 experience per kill early game, so ORKOing anything is a problem with him, due to the opportunity cost of another unit that could have taken that kill. Using Marcus to kill sacrifices the experience points of ANY non-promoted unit that could have capitalized on the opportunity to gain more experience points, and subsequently level up. His EXP gains are terrible for most of the game, and he no statistic potential, so giving him kills costs the rest of the team experience points for something they could have done just as easily with him sitting on the sidelines.

Marcus's earlygame usage is tantamount to bailout. If you have no other possible moves and another unit could die enemy phase, send him in to kill it. Otherwise, you're wasting experience on a unit that becomes obsolete in a few chapters.

On the other hand, Raven is an extremely capable offensive unit from the time he joins to the end of the game. He comes in with high bases, high growths, and a comparably low level. You don't lose any experience having him fight and he can get you through the game at no cost to your team. I don't understand how that's any less efficient than using Marcus for a few chapters and then benching him.

You're using a different criteria for efficiency then what this list using. The criteria used for this list is for shaving off as many turns as possible. Let's say I take two extra turns from Chapter 11 all the up to Chapter 21 because I refused to use Marcus at all. That's 20 turns I would have not accrued if I simply used him.

[Colonel M]

Using Marcus as a full time unit isn't close to a joke. He can actually last for the entire game if you just toss him the Speedwing. He's also very useful in Genesis where wielding the Brave Axe in 22X and help clear the Mage enemies before Kishuna leaves and the field goes ballistic. He also doesn't cost a Knight Crest, major training to reach his status at the current time in the game, and again having only slight weaknesses which are rather easy to fix. You could even drop him whenever you find it inefficient to use him (which is difficult to determine) and Raven cannot duplicate his contributions from earlygame to that point. That is, unless you drop him in C14, in which case you're just making the game more of a difficult path for you no matter what.

The point where Marcus joins and leaves really comes at no cost to you whatsoever. Fielding Marcus is almost free if it wasn't for the deployment slot thing going on, and a team with Marcus vs. a team without Marcus surely knows the major differences in efficiency that the former team has in comparison to the latter.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Tyranel M

[-Cynthia-]

I am a little skeptical of Rebecca's position though. She's easily your worst unit during earlygame, and when you have scrubs like Bartre and Eliwood that's saying something. She can't double, does almost no damage, gets 2RKOd by everything and has no enemy phase.

She does double eventually, but her lack of enemy phase issues persist. Considering how enemy density gets really high in FE7, this isn't a good thing.

For example, why is Rebecca a tier and a half above Louise?

20/1 Rebecca

32 HP 15 Str 18 AS 8 Def 9 Res

base Louise (A Pent)

28 HP 13 Str 17 AS 12 Def 15 Res

Rebecca has a small offensive lead, Louise has a small durability lead, about even. However, Louise got this way without needing to be fed kills for tons of chapters and didn't consume a promo item. She also provides a useful support bonus to a pretty aweosme character (Pent needs the Def pretty badly).

I guess you could argue I sandbagged Rebecca by not giving her a support, but the slow support system in FE7 makes Louise's auto A much better. Rebecca has lol Wil/Nino, Louise herself, and extremely slow Raven/Sain supports. Lowen is a little faster, but why are we gluing an archer to a Cavalier? Dart is reasonable I guess, but he's kind of medicore and probably doesn't want to stick near Rebecca anyway, so probably a C tops. Louise has a fast Hawkeye support and a fast Erk support, so she could get additional bonuses as well.

i just don't see Rebecca's early potshots as all that useful (and if she's chipping, her Exp gain won't be very high). Lyn might have bad durability, but we can at least give her stuff to make her have an Enemy Phase (IE Lancereaver), Rebecca just gets hit and can't counter. Rebecca shouldn't even be better offensively fr a long time if we used Lyn in Lyn Mode, she can deal massive damage to Cavs and Armors and doubles pretty frequently, Rebecca's not in doubling mode yet.

[Inference]

No unit matches Marcus's ability to shave turns off of chapters.

Except enemy phase, terrain abuse, and just making smart moves in general. It's pretty easy to beat his free chapters in about the same amount of time just sending out Hector and Oswin to rape everything, which doesn't cost your team a damn thing because they make good use of the experience with growths and utility throughout the game.

You could even drop him whenever you find it inefficient to use him (which is difficult to determine) and Raven cannot duplicate his contributions from earlygame to that point. That is, unless you drop him in C14, in which case you're just making the game more of a difficult path for you no matter what.

You can use Marcus at any point in the game, but it wouldn't make much sense to field him when the units you've raised up until then exceed him statistically by far.

If you don't use him at all, or rather sparingly, that's more experience and more levelups for the rest of your team. I would rather have a team full of good units throughout the game than one invincible early game unit that costs everyone multiple levelups by stealing kills and gaining almost no experience or growth from it.

[Inui]

Hector and Oswin don't one-round everything and don't have 8 Mov.

[Inference]

But they both have massive amounts of defense and can beat earlygame chapters just as quickly by staying put. More encounters, more EXP, Serra gets to heal stuff, blah blah blah. The game doesn't suddenly become easier when you start abusing Marcus, you're just incurring massive losses for the rest of your party when they could be far better throughout the game without an experience black hole rushing in and stealing their kills.

[Colonel M]

Just so you know: the EXP hog argument died years ago. Marcus not being a Top Tier unit requires massive sandbagging on his part.

[Inui]

But they both have massive amounts of defense and can beat earlygame chapters just as quickly by staying put. More encounters, more EXP, Serra gets to heal stuff, blah blah blah. The game doesn't suddenly become easier when you start abusing Marcus, you're just incurring massive losses for the rest of your party when they could be far better throughout the game without an experience black hole rushing in and stealing their kills.

So you can move to gates and thrones by staying still and all enemies come to you?

Go play the game. Don't use Marcus at all for the first few chapters. Then play again while using the fuck out of him. Observe your difference in turn count. It will be substantial.

Furthermore, who cares about shafting Dorcas/Bartre/Eliwood/whatever? Eliwood and Hector have super ultra late promotions, Oswin's already at a buffed level and the other units don't matter much. We're not assuming Marcus kills everything. Marcus making people weak hardly matters if he's so rape. Also you get other h4x units anyways, like Geitz, Harken, and Pent.

[GreatEclipse]

When you compare units like we are now, total EXP gains are irreverent. Marcus grabs three kills and prevents anyone else from gaining that EXP, Eliwood grabs three kills and also prevents anyone else from gaining that EXP. Now, when you actually play the game, it looks like this:

-Marcus grabs three kills and gains 12 EXP. He did no improve at all.

-Eliwood grabs three kills and gains a level. He just got that much better.

-Rebecca grabs three kills and gains a level. She also improves, so the fact that she prevented Eliwood from gaining a level is irreverent. The net benefit is the same.

This has more to do with how Marcus should be used, not “should you use him?” If you are in a situation where his high stats are not needed and you would rather gain more EXP, he can just hold back. If other issues are more pressing, break out Marcus. This is still an enormous advantage for him.

Edited March 9, 2010 by GreatEclipse

[chrysalid]

I haven't played minimum turncount (why do you call this efficiency?), but how many turns do you save using Marcus all out in early maps (say 20 and earlier) vs. using him to chip, rescue, and visit towns/shops the way you would for a ranked run where you want both turns and XP?

[Rewjeo]

Because minimum turncount (AKA maximum efficiency) brings up retarded things like Wendy>Treck.

[GreatEclipse]

For the last time, Wendy > Treck was a joke.

As for your question, not that much in my opinion. I can fall several turns below the S-rank requirements on early chapters making liberal use of Oswin and Hector while Marcus runs errands.