Heart Gold | Soul SIlver Tier List

[Colonel M]

By the way, I think Intelligent Systems and Gamefreak work together. They made Gyarados become the Zagaro of Pokemon.

Okay, I think Mekkah explained the rules best, so I'm just going to copy -> paste them in here:

"The best possible Pokemon is one that is obtained at the start of the game, can OHKO enemies off the bat, and takes 1 hp damage from everything, while also learning every possible HM, heals itself automatically, and has some neat ability to top it off. Such a Pokemon doesn't exist, of course, but this means that Pokemon closer to this ideal are the best ones possible.

The goal of this in-game tier list is to recommend a select group of Pokemon for an efficient run through of the game. Those will be put in High tier. Very inefficient Pokemon will be put in Low. Things that are neither efficient nor inefficient, for example Pokemon that have some opportunity cost but end up as good as High ones, will be put in the Middle.

Resources are available, but come with the cost of not being able to give it to other Pokemon. Giving Super Potions is fine because you can buy them and you have almost infinite money in the game. Giving a Pokemon a TM like the Dig in RBY cannot simply be assumed as there is likely lots of competition for it. The less competition there is for a TM, the more likely it is that the Pokemon in question can get said TM. A buyable TM can always be assumed, of course.

Don't confuse an efficient run with a speed run. Speed runs are often segmented and recorded runs with luck manipulation through resets, and aim for the absolute fastest time, but the real time spent on them is usually much, much more. Just assume you want to play through in a relatively low time frame.

Team size is actually by far most efficient if you use one member, but I'm assuming something more like 3 members as otherwise you get extremely centralized lists with starters and earlygame Pokemon at the far top and everything else is pretty much too shitty to bother with."

For now, assume that trading isn't possible. There supposedly is a glitch with the GTS (can't confirm), but I'm going to treat it like the Mine Glitch in FE7 and assume that it doesn't exist.

This isn't quite complete, but we threw on as much as we could. We got rather tired with some of them (see all the Water-types olol), but hey you guys can still help us out. This was made with IOS, SevenDeadlySins, Bblader, and myself. Out of a committee of 1, I was elected to post the list (hurrhurr). Articuno and co are just assumed in the Kanto Tier. Btw, the Kanto Tier is basically like a "No Zone" tier. So don't think that Togepi is actually worse than Pikachu.

Anyway, let's get on with the show:

Zagaro with Tyranitar Support

- Cyndaquil

- Totodile

- Geodude

Top

- Gyarados

- Ho-oh | Lugia

- Mareep

- Scyther

- Heracross

- Pinsir

- Nidoran M

- Nidoran F

- Spearow

High

- Zubat

- Ratatta

- Machop

- Sudowoodo

- Lapras

- Tauros

- Miltank

- Kangaskhan

- Magmar

- Magikarp

- Abra

- Mr. Mime

- Misdreavus

- Gastly

- Yanma

- Venonat

- Growlithe

- Vulpix

Upper Mid

- Tentacool

- Swinub

- Eevee [Vaporeon]

- Aipom

- Magnemite

- Voltorb

- Hoothoot

- Pidgey

- Doduo

- Murkrow

- Sentret

- Togepi

- Meowth

- Raikou

- Entei

Mid

- Caterpie

- Chikorita

- Onix

- Staryu

- Wooper

- Jynx

- Drowzee

- Lickitung

- Snubull

- Tangela

- Bellsprout

- Oddish

- Exeggcute

- Diglett

- Sandshrew

- Eevee [Espeon]

- Cubone

- Dratini

- Larvitar

Lower Mid

- Chinchou

- Mankey

- Pineco

- Eevee [Jolteon]

- Rhyhorn

- Marill

- Krabby

- Remoraid

- Slowpoke

- Seel

- Shellder

Low

- Horsea

- Qwilfish

- Psyduck

- Poliwag

- Goldeen

- Corsola

- Mantine

- Stantler

- Girafarig

- Grimer

- Koffing

- Eevee [Flareon]

- Eevee [umbreon]

- Skarmory

- Gligar

- Ekans

- Clefairy

- Jigglypuff

- Teddiursa

- Phanpy

Bottom

- Dunsparce

- Farfetch'd

- Natu

- Tyrogue

- Weedle

- Spinarak

- Ledyba

- Paras

- Hoppip

- Sunkern

- Shuckle

- Delibird

Wendy's Basement

- Wobbuffet

- Ditto

- Smeargle

- Unown

Kanto (Not in Order)

- Mewtwo

- Articuno

- Zapdos

- Moltres

- Snorlax

- Suicune

- Chansey

- Porygon

- Kabuto

- Omanyte

- Aerodactyl

- Pikachu

- Slugma

- Houndour

- Electabuzz

- Sneasel

- Ponyta

- Bulbasaur / Charmander / Squirtle

Edited April 25, 2010 by Colonel M

[Momo]

Togepi has extrasensory now, it actually does well against things. No idea where I'd put it, but it definitely ain't Wendy tier.

[Sol Hiryu]

It's still a pain in the ass to raise up, even with Extrasensory. It's basically its only attack move until Metronome, and even then it's nothing spectacular. Togepi's speed isn't exactly stellar either.

[Momo]

Still better than at least Hoppip, which doesn't even learn an attacking move until level 10.

[Don Draper]

I thought Colonel putting it there was a joke, since he hates Togepi and we weren't sure where else to put it. Seeing as it comes right after the first gym, has an 80 base attack move right off the bat, should evolve by the time you get to Goldenrod, and turns completely uber when it evolves after the Elite 4, I could see it in Upper Mid, if not higher.

[Colonel M]

Yeah it was kind of a joke (you'd hate Togekiss in competitive too if you ever faced it). I think it's better than the shitty bugs though, but I'll wait on what others think.

[General Spoon]

I think Tentacool could go higher. It learns several HMs.

[Colonel M]

I put most of the Water HM slaves ~the same tier for that reason. Notice that Pokemon such as Qwilfish and Staryu learn all 3 of those necessary HMs (Surf, Whirlpool, Waterfall). I guess it does also learn Cut. Even so, compare this to Krabby who learns 5 HMs (Cut, Surf, Whirlpool, Strength, Rock Smash) and he's lower atm. Tentacool is also kind of meh combat-wise too, which doesn't help it much.

[grandjackal]

Miltank should be above Tauros for several reasons.

-Scrappy gives it the ability to fight Ghosts, which Tauros can't do without something like Foresight.

-Speaking of which, Zen Headbutt of which it learns relatively early. Having elemental variance makes OHKOing quite a bit easier, even if the tank is a bit weaker in ATK.

-Milk Drink ensures less visits to the pokecenter, and can keep itself alive mid-battle.

-Other possible ability is Thick Fat, which allows it to tank better versus fire and ice. Ice is notable, as Miltank has Rollout. This helps it survive better, which helps ensure that a Miltank can kill a pokemon before vice versa.

[General Spoon]

I put most of the Water HM slaves ~the same tier for that reason. Notice that Pokemon such as Qwilfish and Staryu learn all 3 of those necessary HMs (Surf, Whirlpool, Waterfall). I guess it does also learn Cut. Even so, compare this to Krabby who learns 5 HMs (Cut, Surf, Whirlpool, Strength, Rock Smash) and he's lower atm. Tentacool is also kind of meh combat-wise too, which doesn't help it much.

Wait, why isn't Krabby higher then?

[The Divine Swordmaster]

Why is sentret that low? and Chikorita that high?

EDIT: also I think you can get Ponyta before the Elite Four, litterally BEFORE the Elite Four

Also Hoppip > Sunkern?

Edited March 17, 2010 by The Divine Swordmaster

[Blademaster!]

I also agree that Togepi should go up. At lvl 1, it is easily capable of defeating Silver's Ghastly and then grows to level 7 I think, maybe a bit higher.

And knowing extrasensory helps out A LOT.

The list is missing Gligar.

Also, does the rarity/difficulty to catch a Pokemon affect where it is positioned on the list? I imagine it would have to since a Pokemon that can only be found on a 1% chance probably shouldn't be all that high up since it would be so difficult to find and you would be wasting time looking for. That's part of the reason why I had the chance tier in my list since those Pokemon are all really rare and hard to catch.

[Colonel M]

Alright let's see.

@Miltank > Tauros. Actually I can almost agree with it if you consider Milk Drink that big of an advantage. Scrappy is also pretty awesome against Morty, though tbh I don't see her struggling against Ghosts. She does make a good choice for Pryce though in comparison to Tauros. She does look a lot weaker than Tauros, bst-wise (100 Atk | 110 Spe vs. 80 Atk | 100 Spe), so it might require a second look.

@Krabby. I just realized it, heh. I think Krabby > Tentacool seems fair.

@Sentret. I considered it the "middle ground" since it's practically a neutral Pokemon. Good HM slave, decent availability, but nothing special. Notice how most of the Pokemon below it (atm) aren't usually considered into teams.

@Chikorita. It's still a starter either way. It also has a decent support movepool and can keep itself alive (Synthesis at Level 12 is pretty nuts), so it at least isn't wtfterrible. Also can act as an HM slave I guess, which helps it to some extent.

@Gligar. Hm... probably over Stantler I'd say. I'll add him.

@Chance to find. I think of it like this: contributions after its caught. So I don't really consider it needing Swarm to find a terrible disadvantage.

[grandjackal]

@Miltank > Tauros. Actually I can almost agree with it if you consider Milk Drink that big of an advantage. Scrappy is also pretty awesome against Morty, though tbh I don't see her struggling against Ghosts. She does make a good choice for Pryce though in comparison to Tauros. She does look a lot weaker than Tauros, bst-wise (100 Atk | 110 Spe vs. 80 Atk | 100 Spe), so it might require a second look.

Scrappy allows her better options against ghosts when she starts (Like Stomp to cause flinching, or even Body Slam for hte paralysis), when she doesn't have Zen Headbutt, so you can pick her up and use her off the bat in Morty's gym, and all without having to feel the pinch of ghost attacks like Shadow Ball. Tauros needs a TM to even hurt Morty's gym.

Milk Drink allows her to keep alive in battle so I don't have to switch out just to let someone else on my team get bitchslapped for it. In this way, it even keeps the team indirectly healthy. Furthermore, it can be used outside of battle similar to Softboiled to sacrifice a bit of HP to give to someone else. When battle comes in, I can use Milk Drink to heal the HP lost in healing. Even saves me money on buying potions.

The attacks. Rollout on the weakness is basically 60 power, so she'd be doing 140 might. Tauros with Stomp when you consider that is doing 160. However, the next attack is garunteed stronger than anything Tauros would have up to that point, and with it I could potentially sweep a team with just a slightly weaker start-up (and with Pryce, she indeed could have the ice semi-resistance). Zen Headbutt is basically 160 power on anything weak to it, which means she's hitting with weakness she's doing 240 might. Show me where Taurus gets a 140 might move, especially this early.

That in mind, lessee what type advantages this gives her.

Fire, Ice, Poison,Flying, can attack Ghosts without TMs or foresight. Type variance can also allow her to pierce the Normal type's Rock weakness (so Zen Headbutt would do 160 might on a rock type, which would be the same as Tauros with a 120 power move).

Also, does one happen to be faster than the other?

@Sentret. I considered it the "middle ground" since it's practically a neutral Pokemon. Good HM slave, decent availability, but nothing special. Notice how most of the Pokemon below it (atm) aren't usually considered into teams.

Doesn't Sentret have Pickup? It's extra incentive to pick it up.

@Chikorita. It's still a starter either way. It also has a decent support movepool and can keep itself alive (Synthesis at Level 12 is pretty nuts), so it at least isn't wtfterrible. Also can act as an HM slave I guess, which helps it to some extent.

Chikorita is basically pure defensive use. Reflect, a Powder of some sort, Synthesis and Razor Leaf with it's pure grass type to boost it up to about 83 power is rather sickening. Offense is one thing, but at least it can stall the hell out of something.

[Momo]

Chika's got poisonpowder early on, meaning it can actually do well against the gyms before they start using full restores. Sure as hell helps against Whitney's Miltank, for instance.

edit: wtf beaten

Edited March 17, 2010 by Saloma

[The Divine Swordmaster]

This list is missing the Eeveelution's

[grandjackal]

Chika's got poisonpowder early on, meaning it can actually do well against the gyms before they start using full restores. Sure as hell helps against Whitney's Miltank, for instance.

Lum Berry+Rollout pretty much GGs Chikorita's entire defensive strategy (unless I forgot Rock is weak to grass). I'd rather rely on Paralysis as to interrupt Rollout potentially.

[Momo]

Her Miltank has the correct berry for whatever status effect you first put on it, Whitney literally cheats. You have to put the effect on twice, and who else can do that better than Bayleef? It can take the rollouts and widdle down its HP well. Speaking of which, who can paralyze it? I can't think of anything you get early enough that has Stun Spore.

[The Divine Swordmaster]

Scrappy allows her better options against ghosts when she starts (Like Stomp to cause flinching, or even Body Slam for hte paralysis), when she doesn't have Zen Headbutt, so you can pick her up and use her off the bat in Morty's gym, and all without having to feel the pinch of ghost attacks like Shadow Ball. Tauros needs a TM to even hurt Morty's gym.

Milk Drink allows her to keep alive in battle so I don't have to switch out just to let someone else on my team get bitchslapped for it. In this way, it even keeps the team indirectly healthy. Furthermore, it can be used outside of battle similar to Softboiled to sacrifice a bit of HP to give to someone else. When battle comes in, I can use Milk Drink to heal the HP lost in healing. Even saves me money on buying potions.

The attacks. Rollout on the weakness is basically 60 power, so she'd be doing 140 might. Tauros with Stomp when you consider that is doing 160. However, the next attack is garunteed stronger than anything Tauros would have up to that point, and with it I could potentially sweep a team with just a slightly weaker start-up (and with Pryce, she indeed could have the ice semi-resistance). Zen Headbutt is basically 160 power on anything weak to it, which means she's hitting with weakness she's doing 240 might. Show me where Taurus gets a 140 might move, especially this early.

That in mind, lessee what type advantages this gives her.

Fire, Ice, Poison,Flying, can attack Ghosts without TMs or foresight. Type variance can also allow her to pierce the Normal type's Rock weakness (so Zen Headbutt would do 160 might on a rock type, which would be the same as Tauros with a 120 power move).

Also, does one happen to be faster than the other?

Tauros is a little faster

Doesn't Sentret have Pickup? It's extra incentive to pick it up.

No it has Keen Eye and Run Away

Chikorita is basically pure defensive use. Reflect, a Powder of some sort, Synthesis and Razor Leaf with it's pure grass type to boost it up to about 83 power is rather sickening. Offense is one thing, but at least it can stall the hell out of something.

Chika's got poisonpowder early on, meaning it can actually do well against the gyms before they start using full restores. Sure as hell helps against Whitney's Miltank, for instance.

edit: wtf beaten

The first two gyms are super effective types againist Chikorita. For instance, Bugsy's Metapod has that shed skin ability and Kakkuna is immune to poison. And Scyther is fast hits hard and has U-turn

But Whitney I will concede

EDIT: the other responses are bolded....

Edited March 17, 2010 by The Divine Swordmaster

[Momo]

Falkner's Pidgeotto only has Gust, which isn't really that big a threat. Chika might need help, but it doesn't fall over and die. If it uses Roost, then Chika gets STAB'd razor leaf to use on it. Bugsy's Metapod and Kakuna are... well, a Metapod and Kakuna. Pretty much anything can kill those with absolutely no trouble. Scyther however is a problem, I admit. Poor lil Chika doesn't like U-turn very much.

[The Divine Swordmaster]

Metapod and Kakkuna are actually tough, Their defenses are a little tough, even againist moves like peck, and have fun with Kakkuna's poison sting.

Annd dont forget that Bugsy starts off with Scyther, that thing swept my enitre team with quick attack

[grandjackal]

Her Miltank has the correct berry for whatever status effect you first put on it, Whitney literally cheats. You have to put the effect on twice, and who else can do that better than Bayleef? It can take the rollouts and widdle down its HP well. Speaking of which, who can paralyze it? I can't think of anything you get early enough that has Stun Spore.

Flaafy's thunder wave is purely paralysis and unlike the powders is 100% accurate.

Bayleef simply would probably be able to do it and survive without a potion thanks to Reflect and better defensive stats, but Flaafy at least could do it before getting rolled out. From there, I effectively neutralized the effectiveness of Rollout, whereas Bayleef has to sit there and tank it out the entire time while we wait for poison to slowly wittle it away. For example, now that it's paralyzed, I could use flincher moves, or confuse it to stack interruptions on it, even both.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Metapod and Kakkuna are actually tough, Their defenses are a little tough, even againist moves like peck, and have fun with Kakkuna's poison sting.

Considering how Metapod's highest stat is regular Defense and Peck uses the regular Attack stat, that's no surprise. It's Sp.ATK moves you should be using against such.

Edited March 17, 2010 by Speedwagon

[Momo]

Gah, forgot about Mareep being available early on. There's also Butterfree too, I guess. But, it takes two turns to give it a status effect, and Flaafy takes 2x damage from Rollout, that doesn't sound like a great idea. But eh, either way is good, and it doesn't really negate anything I'm saying.

[The Divine Swordmaster]

Flaffy only takes 1x damage from Rollout its not a ground technique