FireRed/LeafGreen ingame tier list

[Dark Sage]

He had Thunderbolt, Hyper Beam, Surf, and many many other moves. Sure, they didn't always have STAB, but he had the stats to use them very well. I know it requires TMs, but you're saying no TMs for no good reason. And even if you're right that he sucks offensively, he makes a decent tank. So he should rise.

Again, even without Hitmontop, my point still stands.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Dat Nick]

You want me to tier something that "joins" at level 5 after the E4?

What's the damn point of that, again? I'm not going to tier Hitmontop since it's existence is entirely redundant, but I'll tell you what I'm gonna do...

EDIT: Check the list again.

And even if you're right that he sucks offensively, he makes a decent tank.

This is ingame. Tanking is not very useful when you can just kill the sons of bitches. Gyarados also has lots of weaknesses that even make it so it can't be a good tank.

And all of the moves you just described run off of Special Attack. And Gyarados's SPATK stat blows dick.

Edited April 4, 2010 by s Portsman

[grandjackal]

He had Thunderbolt, Hyper Beam, Surf, and many many other moves. Sure, they didn't always have STAB, but he had the stats to use them very well. I know it requires TMs, but you're saying no TMs for no good reason.

Way to waste Thunderbolt of which is a special attack move (I believe I mentioned before that Gyarados's special attack stat sucks the root), Surf suffers the same problem as Thunderbolt just less so, Hyper Beam is gotten quite late, has 5 PP and requires he recharge which leaves him open, or needing to be switched out.

Why list moves he either sucks with or doesn't want?

And even if you're right that he sucks offensively, he makes a decent tank. So he should rise.

We have plenty of tanks that don't require having to level up Magikarp, which is a pain in the ass, and easily could tank better.

[Dark Sage]

I guess I'm still thinking in the competitive mindset. I think you can get more Thunderbolt TMs, though it does require slots.

Look I might as well ask, what rules are we using for the tier list.

You know what? Forget it. I'm not going to convince you about Gyarados. But his sucky SpA you like to keep going on about is about 60. Primeape has about 60 defense. Many pokemon have that 60 SpA. True, it's subpar but not horrible. I'm just a bit interested in your reasoning.

But let's not make it into an argument. I just finished the best Sedar EVAR, so I don't want to ruin my mood.

[H3X/AntiStyle]

As amazing as the split for Sp/Attack was for DP, that doesn't make him a better unit in the other games. Is he still a really fun and awesome unit to use? Yeah, but it's not like he fixes the game or anything.

(As a side note, Dragon Dance + Aqua Tail got me through the entire Elite 4, despite Gyarados being a lower level than most any Pokemon. Good stuff.)

[Dat Nick]

^^^ No. 60 spa IS bad. You're not one shotting anything with it, the end. As for defense, wtf does "oh primeape has 60 def so gyarados's spatk is good by default" prove? spatk and def are two totally different stats. Def is less important ingame because you can get a lot of OHKOs with the right setups, that's why Primeape having meh-ish defense is forgivable, because oftentimes he'll kill generic pokemon before they can do anything to him. Having bad spatk on the other hand is totally unacceptable because offense is very important ingame, especially since Gyarados only HAS spatks outside of bites.

[Dark Sage]

It's just an example. A bad example. A crappy example. A... you know what? You haven't answered two important questions of mine: TM use, and tier listing rules for this. All it's been is, "Oh Gyrados sucks LOL." But you haven't adressed these concerns and I refuse to continue this debate until these two issues are resolved.

I'm sorry for the outburst. I'm just a bit frustrated. It's definetly the competitive mindset kicking in. Gyarados being OU and all.

[Don Draper]

Remember this is an INGAME tier list. Whether a pokemon ends up good or not is irrelevant. What matters is when they join, and how long they're good for.

[Dat Nick]

All it's been is, "Oh Gyrados sucks LOL."

Incredibly good reasons have been given for his suckage.

and tier listing rules for this.

What are you talking about? I gave rules on the first page.

TM use

What about it?

[Dark Sage]

I meant like in the FE6 tier list, such as oppurtunity costs and the like.

I thought someone said earlier that Gyarados sucks because he can't learn any good attacks because that would require TMs or something. I might've misread the post but anyway.

Let's just drop the whole Gyarados debate.

[General Spoon]

I meant like in the FE6 tier list, such as oppurtunity costs and the like.

I thought someone said earlier that Gyarados sucks because he can't learn any good attacks because that would require TMs or something. I might've misread the post but anyway.

Let's just drop the whole Gyarados debate.

Oh, okay. Do you mind if we bring up your Hitmonchan and the elemental punches argument again?

[Dat Nick]

Gyarados's movepool sucks with or without TMs, since all water attacks run off of special, and his spatk stat, you know, sucks. There isn't this magical TM that just makes his offense viable all of a sudden, he simply is not good because he does not have moves that correspond well with his stats, and TMs don't help him with that. Gyarados was doomed as soon as the boys at gamefreak programmed water to run off of spatk and decided to make him lacking in that stat. I'm tired of relaying this to you over and over. Gyarados was a fuckload of shit before Generation 4 and you've heard more than enough evidence to support this fact, accept it. (Speaking of, being in the competitive mindset doesn't change that Gyarados was terribad before Generation 4 at all; so I'm semi-curious as why you thought the competitive mindset reasoning was going to get you anywhere)

If you really wanted to "drop it", then you'd stop arguing in Gyarados's favor. Keep arguing or don't. Just make up your mind one way or another, although really you'll just make yourself look even sillier if you press the issue further when all the statistical facts are against you.

As for TMs...uh, what about the opportunity cost here would make it any different than say, the opportunity cost of a statup/seal in any other FE game? Some strings would have to be pulled if you're giving Bubblebeam to Tentacool instead of Poliwag, for instance (but I really don't see why you'd use more than 1 water, so usually there isn't even competition for TMs) It's only an existing opportunity cost if another pokemon on the team can use the desired TM, and if that's the case there is some favoritism involved, but you can't sandbag both Z and Y out of the TM because Z getting it is better than nobody getting it (if it's a good move, anyway) even if it is favoritism, so it's not the end of the world if, say, you give Voltorb Thunderbolt instead of Sentret. Really, I don't see what's so hard to understand, and why it'd be so different from FE mechanics.

Edited April 4, 2010 by s Portsman

[Dark Sage]

If you really wanted to "drop it", then you'd stop arguing in Gyarados's favor. Keep arguing or don't. Just make up your mind one way or another, although really you'll just make yourself look even sillier if you press the issue further when all the statistical facts are against you.

Jeez, I was just about to stop. I was wrong, Gyarados is not good. I'm more used to Fire Emblem debating anyhow.

As for TMs...uh, what about the opportunity cost here would make it any different than say, the opportunity cost of a statup/seal in any other FE game? Some strings would have to be pulled if you're giving Bubblebeam to Tentacool instead of Poliwag, for instance (but I really don't see why you'd use more than 1 water, so usually there isn't even competition for TMs) It's only an existing opportunity cost if another pokemon on the team can use the desired TM, and if that's the case there is some favoritism involved, but you can't sandbag both Z and Y out of the TM because Z getting it is better than nobody getting it (if it's a good move, anyway) even if it is favoritism, so it's not the end of the world if, say, you give Voltorb Thunderbolt instead of Sentret. Really, I don't see what's so hard to understand, and why it'd be so different from FE mechanics.

Ok thanks for clearing that up. I asked because some TMs, due to slots, are in an unlimited number, so we shouldn't say, "Oh we shouldn't give Thunderbolt to Jolteon because then Raichu wouldn't get it, considering there's an infinte amount of Thunderbolt TMs. This means the time it takes for slots should not be considered either when tiering these pokemon.

Speaking of Jolteon, he should rise. Nice moveset, with the stats to use most of it, one of the fastest pokemon and he's great against the 6th gym if you have Pin Missle, Lorelei, Lance and Gary. I don't know why he's below Flareon, so just to be polite, I'm going to ask you why.

[Dat Nick]

he sucks everywhere except lorelei isn't a good enough reason?

Also, how is he any better against gary than the average pokemon? He has more pokemon than just his Pidgeot. Maybe if you picked Charmander, yeah...also, Pin Missle sucks dick even if it hits psychic, the atk is terrible. So I'm not buying that Pin Missle makes him decent against Sabrina. Especially since it's not a bug type, making the atk even worse.

How is he good against Lance, also? He has what, Gyarados and that's it? Dragon resists Thunder so he's not doing anything against Dragonite.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Dark Sage]

Dragonite is also flying, so it takes normal damage. Gyrados, and I think Aerodactyl are weak against thunder. He has access to the Thunderdance combo which, combined with high SpA, STAB and speed, makes him very dangerous.

For Gary, with the exception of Exeggutor and Venusaur, nothing resists Jolteon's attacks. And how does he suck in all the other Gyms? And how is Pikachu so much better anyway? True, Raichu has Surf and higher Attack, but Jolteon beats in the Speed, SpA and SpD and even HP and Defense (albeit, minimally). I guess Raichu has the edge on availability and Static, but Pikachu even before hand is exceptionally fragile, while Eevee has less of that problem.

[-Cynthia-]

Pikachu is useful for beating Misty I guess, though it's obsolete if you chose Bulbasaur and Oddish/Bellsprout are probably better choices (Pikachu's like 2HKOd by Water Pulse).

[grandjackal]

Pikachu is useful for beating Misty I guess, though it's obsolete if you chose Bulbasaur and Oddish/Bellsprout are probably better choices (Pikachu's like 2HKOd by Water Pulse).

Starmie also happens to be pretty damn fast, so Pikachu at the very least should be kept around for the universally useful Thunder Wave, so that if he can't kill it, someone else can with far greater ease.

[Dark Sage]

True. The thought of being super effective against Misty's pokemon did occur to me, but yeah, Bulbasaur and Oddish can do the role a lot better, because they don't die instantly.

Oh, and Oddish has Stun Spore, so the Thunderwave utility is just more convenient for 100% accuracy. Point is, Pikachu needs to drop, Jolteon needs to rise.

I hope I don't sound too aggressive.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Dat Nick]

Dragonite is also flying, so it takes normal damage.

Dude, I just addressed that. When I said not doing anything I mean that in the sense that it's not justifying fighting his Dragonite with Jolteon. There just isn't a point, Jolteon is going to lose that battle. I'll concede that I forgot Aerodactyl.

For Gary, with the exception of Exeggutor and Venusaur, nothing resists Jolteon's attacks.

He hits the weakness of 2 and gets resisted by two...this really doesn't stand out.

Also, it doesn't matter that Pikachu isn't the #1 to deal with Misty. He can deal with her, Jolteon can't and won't ever be able to. I don't remember what level Eevee joins at, and I'll need to validate your statements about Jolteon having better stats before I analyze a level gap between them, if there is one.

[Dark Sage]

The point is that Jolteon can still do a ton of damage because of his stats and movepool. Sure he isn't super-effective against all of Gary's team, or Lance's, but he still contributes.

Compare smogon.com/rs/pokemon/jolteon to smogon.com/rs/pokemon/raichu

Oh and regarding Jolteon not being able to handle Misty, it's not because Jolteon sucks, it's because he joins in Celadon, which you can't get to when you're fighting Misty.

Eevee starts at Level 20.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Dat Nick]

The point is that Jolteon can still do a ton of damage because of his stats and movepool. Sure he isn't super-effective against all of Gary's team, or Lance's, but he still contributes.

the thing is, he is not contributing all that much. I see him doing nothing against Gary another pokemon of another type could do. Gary arguments aren't very good to begin with since his team is like the only diverse one in the game, so somebody of any type usually performs decent against at least one of his pokemon due to type adv.

Oh and regarding Jolteon not being able to handle Misty, it's not because Jolteon sucks, it's because he joins in Celadon, which you can't get to when you're fighting Misty.

um yeah

that's kind of like, exactly what i said

Jolteon can't take on Misty because he's not there, and Pikachu being like your 4th-5th string guy to kill Misty is still better than that. Please stop echoing facts I've already stated, this is the second time you've done it in a timeframe of two posts and it's really starting to piss me off.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Detective Badd

[Dark Sage]

the thing is, he is not contributing all that much. I see him doing nothing against Gary another pokemon of another type could do. Gary arguments aren't very good to begin with since his team is like the only diverse one in the game, so somebody of any type usually performs decent against at least one of his pokemon due to type adv.

So what does Raichu do that Jolteon can't besides Misty. Or for that matter what any other pokemon can't do?

um yeah

that's kind of like, exactly what i said

Jolteon can't take on Misty because he's not there, and Pikachu being like your 4th-5th string guy to kill Misty is still better than that. Please stop echoing facts I've already stated, this is the second time you've done it in a timeframe of two posts and it's really starting to piss me off.

Geez I'm sorry. I thought you meant something different ok? No harm done. I'll try not to echo your posts.

[Dat Nick]

So what does Raichu do that Jolteon can't besides Misty.

I could ask you a similar question. What does Jolteon do what Raichu can't? Pin Missle the enemy for MASSIVE damage?

And "any pokemon"? You make it sound like I have Pikachu topping the list here. Pikachu doesn't need to outperform every single pokemon in the game to be above Jolteon, just Jolteon.

anyway i'll look at the stats later. i gotta go soon.

[The Divine Swordmaster]

Why is there a huge gap between Zubat and Pidgey?

[grandjackal]

Because Crobat can't exist until after the national dex, so I'd rather choose pidgey who comes earlier, sucks significantly less at his start, and doesn't get his ass handed to him by as many elements?