HHM List of Utility and Non-Optimal Units: Efficiency Based

[Rodykitty]

This is based on an idea from dondon151 in IRC and has been implemented for FEDS. Since dondon151 does not have time to implement this idea for one of the other games, I will go ahead and implement it here.

This is not a tier list.

Gaps between characters are not important, but the order that they are listed is. These are two categories, units that will see use in an optimal team, and units who, during their entire existences, have a higher opportunity cost than benefit. FE7 Specific: Minimal weight is put on join chapter.

(For people that don't get it, you can be a utility unit and suck, or you can be a non-optimal unit and still be decent).

This is based on efficiency. Lyn HM is played efficiently.

Utility category:

Marcus

Raven

Priscilla

Serra

Ninian/Nils

Matthew

Lowen

Sain

Kent

Oswin

Hector

Erk

Eliwood

Guy

Pent

Harken

Geitz

Florina

Hawkeye

Dorcas

Legault

Isadora

Fiora

Heath

Lyn

Athos

Non-optimal:

Lucius

Canas

Dart

Louise

Rebecca

Bartre

Rath

Farina

Jaffar

Karel

Vaida

Wil

Wallace

Renault

Karla

Nino

Edited May 28, 2010 by Ilyana

[Junkhead]

Pretty glad Hawkeye and Dorcas made it. =)

Although, I say Lucius does have some utility...you know, a base C in staves as a Bishop is pretty good.

[Rodykitty]

Having "some" utility doesn't automatically make you part of an optimal team.

I'm not sure on Lucius either way. This is a very incomplete list right now.

[Interceptor]

Take this with a grain of salt, because I haven't played HHM yet: but is Lyn so bad that she's not involved in optimal play at all? Lyn has no 1-2 range, terrible durability, and bad MV: I get it. But she's mostly doubling things with her PRF weapon (which is occasionally passable damage on effective targets) until it breaks, has a few forced deployments where she's not booting anyone better out, and coming out of LHM with a decent base level removes some training requirements (I'm looking at you, Eliwood).

That stuff largely doesn't cost you anything to employ.

[Junkhead]

Hey, 5 Mov isn't a problem in relation to your team, really.

Reguarding Lucius: Erk is there, his durabiility is what makes him somewhat better, but him being able to wield anima isn't saying much, sure, he could use Thunder for some more Mt, but that would take him to be on par with Lucius and even slow him down a bit, don't forget Lucius also gets to support Raven, Raven's fastest support is with Lucius.

[CATS]

Lyn can definitely provide some utility just because she's forced a few times and can be at a workable level through LHM.

But in that sense, everyone can provide some measure of utility, since every unit can at least do something in their join chapter and then never hit the field again (Dart, Rath, etc). I assume that you have to be worth using outside of your forced chapters at least once in order to get into the list's upper half (unless you're Athos, who is an exception since his entire existence is a forced chapter I guess, and even if he costed a unit slot, you'd still deploy him).

[Rodykitty]

EDIT: Nevermind. I didn't think anyone would disagree with Lyn going to optimal. I'm not going to make a change that'll cause arguments of consistency until Lyn's performance is considered truly utility.

As for Erk, his joining conditions on his chapter greatly favor his ability to be useful. He starts close enough to where he can continue to kill or harm enemies. He's your only mage until Lucius comes, so that solidifies his role on a team. I am going to leave him optimal.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Ilyana

[Junkhead]

Not saying you should take Erk down ,but, since we're tossing in Lyndis to optimal I think we could do it to Lucius too, he's pretty darn good in LHM, if trained a bit until his tome breaks he can come out pretty good by his re-recruiting. :)

Edited April 8, 2010 by Soul

[Rodykitty]

,but, since we're tossing in Lyndis to optimal I think we could do it to Lucius too

Not yet. Lyndis is up in the air. I think she can be optimal, but it's arguable that people just sit her in the corner of a map during her forced times.

[Junkhead]

Alrighty then, thanks.

Hmm...this is a list of utility...another thing that she IS needed for is getting either her or Eliwood to lvl 20 before Ch 24 so you can recruit Geitz. Geitz is up there on optimal utility alright.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Soul

[Rodykitty]

EDIT: Actually, yeah, it would make her optimal since it would guarantee her a role on the team.

Putting Lyn in optimal.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Ilyana

[BBM]

I don't know where exactly Louise should go, but she should go up. Wil and Rebecca are both hard to train and are locked to bows. Louise has worse stats, but you get her at a usable level, and she comes with an Auto A with Pent, who is an optimal character.

[Life]

Hector to the top of the list. Unless we're discouting Seize.

[dondon151]

Contributions that units make on their joining chapters are ignored, in order to create a baseline for this list. Being forced in other chapters is not ignored. So yes, Lyn will be "optimal," but Lucius is not necessarily because he is recruited in the middle of chapter 17.

[Rodykitty]

Hector to the top of the list. Unless we're discouting Seize.

Get out of this thread.

This is based on performance just like any other, not instant-win strawmans.

[chrysalid]

I'd like to see some consideration for RNG blessing/screwing.

Ex: Characters that have bad enough bases that they can fall into a multiple-chapter hole where they aren't doubling or are strength screwed into habitually(N+1)RKOing vs. their normal NRKO. Like, for example, the cavaliers can easily become unusable. Everyone has had a screwed-up Lowen or Kent or Erk before that just can't hack it. Just going by averages doesn't cut it - some characters have a real shot of failing completely at their role at just 1-2 sigma below normal. On the other end you have characters that are forced or optimal for a few chapters like an Oswin that are going to get some level-ups and can easily get blessed. Does the tier list take into account the chances of that happening? Do some of the people in non-optimal get an asterisk that says something like, "Not optimal... unless Erk blows".

PEMN and all that but it's a stochastic game.

[Rodykitty]

This is not a tier list topic. That isn't what this is for.

This is about making a distinction between a unit that will be on the best team, or a unit that won't see use on a best team but is still good.

---

I went ahead and put Louise above Rebecca. I am going to make changes as I see fit. People can disagree after.

[Junkhead]

I don't know where exactly Louise should go, but she should go up. Wil and Rebecca are both hard to train and are locked to bows. Louise has worse stats, but you get her at a usable level, and she comes with an Auto A with Pent, who is an optimal character.

Being a better character than two who aren't exactly "good" characters isn't saying much, she's still locked to 2-range, it's not like an A support with Pent is benefiting Pent GREATLY, Pent is pretty durable already, he only gains 1 Atk when close to Louise, but you could have him support with Erk, too.

[_____]

He never said Louise was optimal.

[CATS]

Is the bottom half ordered based on join chapter alone? Louise might do better in her join chapter than Rebecca does in hers, but Rebecca's forced for several more chapters after that, while Louise is never forced again after Ch 26. This is why I assumed that a unit needs to be worth using outside of forced chapters in order to get to the top half, since someone like Bartre is on the bottom half even though he's got 4 forced chapters.

[Rodykitty]

The idea is not to put a lot of weight on join chapters, at least not for FE7.

I think I'll add that to the OP.

[Junkhead]

He never said Louise was optimal.

But this isn't a tier list either.

Is the bottom half ordered based on join chapter alone? Louise might do better in her join chapter than Rebecca does in hers, but Rebecca's forced for several more chapters after that, while Louise is never forced again after Ch 26.

Indeed, she's actually taking down wyern riders pretty easily...problem is her unreliable Enemy Phase (Or lack of it) where they come in big ammounts.

[Rodykitty]

But this isn't a tier list either.

Order still matters (which is why Louise is now above Rebecca.) I don't know why order matters, it just does.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

So does this assume we're using Dorcas in chapters where we can't bring the entire team? If so, when? Maybe Chapters 15 and 16? Doubt he's coming later than that, and I'm not sure if he even makes both of those. If his forced chapters don't count, then he should probably be lower, as being a mediocre fighter for maybe two chapters with no special utility is extremely unimpressive. Still barely hanging onto optimal as long as we bring him at least once when he's not forced, but wouldn't Fiora/Heath's generic flying utility alone probably be better than that?

Why do forced chapters seemingly count for Hector, Athos, and maybe Lyn, but not, for, say, Bartre and Rebecca?

[Rodykitty]

Depends on if they're vital for clearing those chapters efficiently, which I don't know at all.