Laguz

[Snowy_One]

Alright. This is something that's been bugging me for quite a long time. As I may have mentioned here before, I am an extreme disliker of Laguz in PoR. Yet in most tiers, Laguz tend to be ranked fairly highly, or are decently high up. To me, this seems stupid. After all, a Laguz cannot fight unless transformed, is dead weight (Reyson excepted) when untransformed, can not attack/counter at 2-range (something I admittedly don't care too much for, but a lot of people do), and while they can take the demi-band to keep transformed, there is only one in the game meaning that whoever takes it will not get access to a stat-band and you are unlikely to have more than one laguz on your team (I would think. Reyson excluded of course) simply because of the fact that it is rather difficult to share the band around.

On a tier-list which prioritized speed, they slow the team down because they can only fight part of the time. On a tier list that goes with power; they falter in the endgame. On one that goes with 'efficiency' they struggle because they cannot take bands and it is difficult to have more than one fielded. So why is it that they are ranked anything above medium?

[dondon151]

There is still a Demi Band in the game. Even if the usage of 1 Laguz unit almost necessarily excludes the usage of all other Laguz units, that doesn't mean that no Laguz can use the Demi Band. A Laguz unit can still take it as long as he's one of the best choices for the item.

[Narga_Rocks]

And it sure doesn't hurt that Lethe is one of your better units for a while and she transforms at the beginning. Since she'll probably be transformed for more than half of each battle, it's not really a bad thing to use her for a while. Not sure on Mordy, though. With his transform gauge I would think he has a lower percentage of transform time. Lethe starts transformed, fights a lot, takes a breather, and fights again for the final press of a chapter. Mordy starts untransformed, waits for a bit, finally starts fighting, but then probably untransforms before the end of the battle and never gets another chance to be in beast form again. And yet he's always higher on tier lists than she is.

Muarim just straps on the demi band and kicks butt, I suppose, but I've never actually used him in order to test that theory. Lategame damage isn't a big concern. Use them until they burn out and then drop them. Don't need to be full game in order to reach upper mid.

[Snowy_One]

There is still a Demi Band in the game. Even if the usage of 1 Laguz unit almost necessarily excludes the usage of all other Laguz units, that doesn't mean that no Laguz can use the Demi Band. A Laguz unit can still take it as long as he's one of the best choices for the item.

Aye. But no other unit in-game aside from the dragons and laguz lords requires that you forgo other units just to make them viable. Lethe is good for the early game, yes, but she's meh for the midgame and failing endgame even if she gets stoned. Mordi requires speedwings just to be viable and is still less than stellar and his redeeming quality is that he is semi-useful in the endgame. Muarim is a powerhouse for the midgame, but becoms quickly outdated and has no midgame. Yet all three are ranked very highly. Higher than most human units who can either match or come close to their prime performance with forged weapons which, while rare and pricy, do allow them to surpass them overall. Not to mention that beorc units are just flat-out better at the endgame anyways.

Mordy starts untransformed, waits for a bit, finally starts fighting, but then probably untransforms before the end of the battle and never gets another chance to be in beast form again. And yet he's always higher on tier lists than she is.

Every argument I've seen about his placement involves his endgame durability which strikes me as odd because it's also been coming from smash who desires high attack and consistent power/2-range for his speed playthrough tiers. It would seem Lethe would be higher even by his standards (especially with how he ranks the early game in relation to the endgame, which is where Mordi gets good), so I am confused.

Muarim just straps on the demi band and kicks butt, I suppose, but I've never actually used him in order to test that theory. Lategame damage isn't a big concern. Use them until they burn out and then drop them. Don't need to be full game in order to reach upper mid.

Aye. But of the three high laguz, Lethe is the only one who gets away with that (since her power is the early game). Both Mordi and Muarim's main selling points is their endgame (no way is Mordi worth a speedwing for spotty early/midgame performance and Muarim has no early game and is not good at the endgame).

[dondon151]

The good laguz units (Lethe, Mordy, Muarim) don't need EXP to be good for a certain period of time, and they have a vast move advantage over foot beorc. That's really all there is to it. Units don't need to be good at endgame to be ranked highly. Marcus in both FE6 and FE7 is not good at endgame. Neither is FE6 Zealot, and Echidna and Cecilia aren't much good either.

[Zkirsche]

Snowy, everyone knows that they have no endgame, but that doesn't make them useless for the first half of the game, as at that point, they destroy the enemy (but only for ~50% of the chapter), so during the time that they're used they are, on average, better than other. Much like Titania, except not quite as much.

I shouldn't think a speedwing woudl be too much to ask for Mordy as most units are plenty fine doubling anyway (wit hteh exception of Boyd, though that doesn't slow him down).

[Snowy_One]

The good laguz units (Lethe, Mordy, Muarim) don't need EXP to be good for a certain period of time, and they have a vast move advantage over foot beorc. That's really all there is to it. Units don't need to be good at endgame to be ranked highly. Marcus in both FE6 and FE7 is not good at endgame. Neither is FE6 Zealot, and Echidna and Cecilia aren't much good either.

That may be so, but I would think it wrong for a character to be ranked upper-mid when they are good for a period of time roughly equal to 4-5 chapters (and only fighting 30-60% of the time even in those chapters) before they start to fade away and end up being aweful while other characters a tier below them are not only capable of surpassing them but can do so for more chapters and can fight 100% of the time.

Heck, Muarim has even worse than the other two and yet seems to be ranked higher than Lethe. A lot of people seem to think that the early-game is the hardest and a lot of characters seem to be getting ranked high based on the fact that they are good in the early game. Muarim doesn't have a early-game though, locks out the one laguz who can be passible at the endgame, has only a meh midgame (the moment he joins other characters can already start to approach him), and gets his entire tier placement out of four chapters where he is above-average in the midgame when a lot of people seem to discount being good at any point in time later that chapter 15. If the three parts of the game were considered equal, it wouldn't be as bad, but they aren't. Sides, if they were, all three would drop since they outright fail at at least one point in the game (Mordi is slow in the early game and Muarim isn't around, and Lethe and Muarim fail to kill in the endgame reliably).

And no, I would not consider Mordi a good investment for the speedwing. Even if he gets it, he will have speed issues (it just makes them light enough to not auto-fail him) and it does nothing for the fact that he will be fighting basically only 1/3rd of the time. I would much rather give the wing to Boyd, Nephenee, Brom, Kieran, or anyone who is not Mia, Zihark, Titania, or Lethe to help their early-game defenses/AS. Considering that also helps them to double reliably as well, which leads to more kills from units who fight all the time, I would consider the speedwing a poor investment on Mordi unless we were to also give him gems to make him fight all the time.

There are other segements of the game other than the early game... but that doesn't even matter. Only one Laguz is useful in the early game. If we consider being good here valuable enough to make a bunch of units upper-mid or higher, than not only should Mordi and Muarim drop, they should REALLY drop since one sucks and the other isn't even around and they can't even fight all the time. If we don't, then even then they should drop since Mordi still fails even with the wing until the band comes at which point the game is half-over, Muarim is good only for a few chapters, and Lethe just doesn't have anything at endgame.

[Narga_Rocks]

Every argument I've seen about his placement involves his endgame durability which strikes me as odd because it's also been coming from smash who desires high attack and consistent power/2-range for his speed playthrough tiers. It would seem Lethe would be higher even by his standards (especially with how he ranks the early game in relation to the endgame, which is where Mordi gets good), so I am confused.

Um...you've read his posts, yes? He values durability above all else. Even when the difference in durability is superfluous. Or the appearance of durability in the case of Zihark since he loves Earth x Earth units, despite how a B support in part 3 isn't gonna save Zihark consistently.

Anyway, if you disagree about how a unit that saves you twice as many turns over a short duration as another unit may do over the entire game is better than that longterm unit then obviously you will disagree with us on Laguz placements. Whether we are actually right about this in the case of Muarim isn't relevant for the moment. The question is if we have a philosophical difference or not. If we do, then you shouldn't be to worried about the positions we give those units. We will always disagree on units like them so it's better to not think about it much.

Anyway, that's how fe6 Marcus is high tier despite not really doing much after chapter 8 unless he gets some lucky procs. And that's how Lethe and Mordy are so high. Mordy actually can double a fair amount of enemies when he first arrives. If it wasn't for his gauge issues being worse (in my mind) than hers are I probably wouldn't actually object to Mordy > Lethe. They (and Titania) are probably your best units until the others are nearing promotion. Well, a properly-leveled Mia/Zihark against Ravens in chapters 12 to 15 notwithstanding. If we aren't using bexp well then Mordy and Lethe are probably still top 3. And it should be noted only one of Mia or Zihark can do this reasonably, not both, and hence Lethe/Mordy would still both be top 4. Marcia/Jill are arguable in chapter 15, of course.

[-Cynthia-]

Mordy and Lethe are like pseudo Titanias when they show up, just not for every turn.

Muarim has insane stats and has instant Demi Band access, and Demi Band! Muarim still pwns everything.

They are overrated on the other list because apparently non-expert players can't use characters with average durabiity (but they can protect Rhys just fine!).

[Nestling]

Most tier lists are based off of hard mode, where having the giant burst of strength/speed that laguz have really helps.

Also desert chapter = sexy for laguz, which helps their case a teeny bit.

[Zynac]

And it sure doesn't hurt that Lethe is one of your better units for a while and she transforms at the beginning. Since she'll probably be transformed for more than half of each battle, it's not really a bad thing to use her for a while. Not sure on Mordy, though. With his transform gauge I would think he has a lower percentage of transform time. Lethe starts transformed, fights a lot, takes a breather, and fights again for the final press of a chapter. Mordy starts untransformed, waits for a bit, finally starts fighting, but then probably untransforms before the end of the battle and never gets another chance to be in beast form again. And yet he's always higher on tier lists than she is.

Muarim just straps on the demi band and kicks butt, I suppose, but I've never actually used him in order to test that theory. Lategame damage isn't a big concern. Use them until they burn out and then drop them. Don't need to be full game in order to reach upper mid.

Although id agree with the pro laguz side in this argument i dont really agree with this "use them then throw them aside" method. it doesnt seem worth it to let a unit get kills if its not some one you have chosen to follow through to the end of the game. if im not going to train some one i dont bring them ( with a few exceptions such as protecting manditory units that are weak, which is by the way a great use for laguz). It is often hard enough to get a unit to full level( i have a habit of choosing units i like not ones who are good or easy to train). all of that being said laguz arnt over-rated in my opinion they are powerful units that when transformed can tank and destroy just about anything especialy maurim with demi band( in the end game u are sure to have a few laguz stone useages left and can just use his natural stats to make him useful, but that applies alot more to RD)

[Narga_Rocks]

Although id agree with the pro laguz side in this argument i dont really agree with this "use them then throw them aside" method. it doesnt seem worth it to let a unit get kills if its not some one you have chosen to follow through to the end of the game. if im not going to train some one i dont bring them ( with a few exceptions such as protecting manditory units that are weak, which is by the way a great use for laguz). It is often hard enough to get a unit to full level( i have a habit of choosing units i like not ones who are good or easy to train). all of that being said laguz arnt over-rated in my opinion they are powerful units that when transformed can tank and destroy just about anything especialy maurim with demi band( in the end game u are sure to have a few laguz stone useages left and can just use his natural stats to make him useful, but that applies alot more to RD)

necro. this was from the second page and more than 1 month since there was a post.