map 6 is sages is t omap 3 is to 9 move?

[Sylvan]

*EDIT*

Title was supposed to be "map 6 is to sages as map 3 is to 9 move" >.>;;

Map 3. We all know it's broken, but *how* broken, and is map 6 just as broken?

Map 3: Can block in all 5 units given 9 movement, however this leaves every unit in 1-1 combat. Which they aren't guaranteed to win.

Blocking in less than 5 units is beneficial because it allows a player to gang up and systematically defeat the opponent. But there is the problem that either player can be blocked in, and either player can be blocking.

With less units player 1 still has the advantage.

Map 6: If either player is using umbra, player 1 can block in player 2 with no way for player 2 to win. If nobody is using umbra, player 1 can warp over walls and attack player 2 on the first turn (with 2 sages). With 1 sage and no umbra, player 1 still has the advantage.

Is the answer to play on both maps and use Gravity?

If fact, here is a suggestion for tourney rules:

-Best of 3

-Anything goes (map3, 1st turn kills, whatever)

-Card ballot. Both player can pick a card out of: gravity, umbra, apotrope, dazzle.

-Cards are picked as the last thing before a battle. (teams and maps are decided before cards are).

I don't know how fair this would be in practice. But it's worth thinking about.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Sylvan

[Soren9934]

I was actually thinking about this the other day. However player 2 can also employ this tactic on player one. I believe it should have tactical restrictions for sure. Map 6 changes the way the game is played SOOOO much it requires a diffrent team to function on it

but you also have to keep in mind that only the SAME hole may be exploited by each team each time, its somwhat limited in that you can't block ANY one of the 4 sections.

but yeah its starting to get pretty broken lol

Edited April 25, 2010 by BlacknightSoren

[Meteor]

Map 3: Can block in all 5 units given 9 movement, however this leaves every unit in 1-1 combat. Which they aren't guaranteed to win.

Not guaranteed, but the odds are very heavily in favor of player 1.

Map 6: If either player is using umbra, player 1 can block in player 2 with no way for player 2 to win.

Do you have a video, or a setup/move list that would show what you mean by this?

A couple of other points

* Gravity is a main in the ass on map 5, as I'm sure you know.

* Allowing first turn kill makes the game pretty lame, because both players would counter-pick the double sage/berserker team for matches 2 and 3. Like so:

Match 1: Whoever is chosen to host uses FTK.

Match 2: The loser from the previous round now becomes P1, and uses FTK.

Match 3: see match 2.

Result: Whoever goes first in match 1 wins, provided the maps are favorable. This is always the case unless maps are randomly selected, but just turns the game into a luck-fest.

[Soren9934]

the problem with gravity is it doesn't allow for a "nuetral" setting of aprotrope and dazzel.

[Sylvan]

Do you have a video, or a setup/move list that would show what you mean by this?

It more relies on the fact that P1 can set up an unbreakable chokepoint in umbra. If the corner is like this:

***

XX*

***

***

With X being wall, player 1 can put units like this

***

XX*

*U*

**U

Player 2 can't scout without running into the gap. They can only bring enough units to bare to kill 1 of player 1's units. This leaves their scout in vision range for player 1. Player 1 can then kill player 2's units and keep the choke point in tact. That formation can be set up on turn 2 (so after 1 turn for P2), and no formation player 2 can set up for player 1 will be effective in blocking them in. If I think about it, player 1 can probably win in some cases, but like map 3, the advantage is strongly in player 1's favour. The odds of winning are about the same in both cases.

but you also have to keep in mind that only the SAME hole may be exploited by each team each time, its somwhat limited in that you can't block ANY one of the 4 sections.

This is a good point, but in map 3 it's much the same, you can't choose which box to block in. Well, you can if you have 5 units doing the blocking, but then that's an issue for counterpicking. A team of 5 9 move units can't have a sage on it. And can thus be defeated by playing on map 6.

* Gravity is a main in the ass on map 5, as I'm sure you know.

Yeah it is, but a player would have to forefit their main choice of card to pick gravity. As far as I know, gravity gives no advantage.

* Allowing first turn kill makes the game pretty lame, because both players would counter-pick the double sage/berserker team for matches 2 and 3. Like so:

Match 1: Whoever is chosen to host uses FTK.

Match 2: The loser from the previous round now becomes P1, and uses FTK.

Match 3: see match 2.

Result: Whoever goes first in match 1 wins, provided the maps are favorable. This is always the case unless maps are randomly selected, but just turns the game into a luck-fest.

I'm not sure you realise, but gravity isn't just for map 3 and 6, it also stops the first turn kills.

This is how I would imagine it:

Both players (counter)pick teams.

P2 sees P1 has FTK team.

P2 picks Gravity.

P1 is stuffed.

the problem with gravity is it doesn't allow for a "nuetral" setting of aprotrope and dazzel.

This is probably a good thing, it means that you can counterpick teams based on their dependance on cards, rather than the actual team. For example, if I have a 5 horseman team with apotrope, I can win, but then you can counterpick the first turn kill team. If I use gravity to negate this, then I can't use apotrope. With 5 horsemen vs 2 sages 2 berserkers and 1 draco, the way the game works is very different.

I think counterpicking would have to change to at least some extent. I *think* this would be valid counterpick rules:

Assuming P1 beat P2:

P1 chooses their team

P2 chooses their team, map and player order

P1 chooses their card

P2 chooses their card

Edited April 26, 2010 by Sylvan

[geradgerard]

the way i see it is that with the Map3 thing there is absolutely no way for P2 to stop it. but with the Map6 thing, there are ways to stop it. methods that give absolutely no way to deal are pretty broken to me and what i think should be accounted for.

i also don't like this whole player order being such an issue. if it was just some random order then possible strategies and formations depend on how lucky you got on the order. being able to change the order should be looked at as fine without having to give information about it like Sylvan mentioned in his counter-pick rules.

[AstraLunaSol]

Warp. Staves. Are. Broken. On. That. Map.

With Map 6 player order doesn't matter at all (IIRC) Since it all depends on clever use of a Warp staff.

I remember a match with Gerad Gerard, he was second, it was map 6, we had IDENTICAL TEAMS, he warped a Pally over and trapped me on the second turn, I instantly went WTF.

Well if you don't have a warp staff, then....well you're screwed.

[Sylvan]

In that situation, player 1 should usually be able to warp over player 2's paladin. Killing the paladin leaves player 1 in fog with player 2 being split up and having already used their warp. IMO, that's probably a better outcome than using the chokepoint.

[AstraLunaSol]

In that situation, player 1 should usually be able to warp over player 2's paladin. Killing the paladin leaves player 1 in fog with player 2 being split up and having already used their warp. IMO, that's probably a better outcome than using the chokepoint.

A Sniper was behind him, I made an idiotic move and warped away my Berserker when I could've just moved it from view. Killing the Pally and leaving the Sniper. My usual strategy would be to warp away all my units leaving the Sage, and hopefully keeping the Sage alive.

[geradgerard]

ah yes, now i remember that game. if i recall, i had trapped his beserker and sage. and since it was P1's second turn, his lone unit that starts at the top of the map doesn't have enough move to reach me. he bumped into my paladin with his zerker and then used warp to go places. i usually only try that when i'm more concerned with having fun and trying to fake out P1. >.< most people don't expect blocking P1 instead but it's definitely risky on my part.

[AstraLunaSol]

ah yes, now i remember that game. if i recall, i had trapped his beserker and sage. and since it was P1's second turn, his lone unit that starts at the top of the map doesn't have enough move to reach me. he bumped into my paladin with his zerker and then used warp to go places. i usually only try that when i'm more concerned with having fun and trying to fake out P1. >.< most people don't expect blocking P1 instead but it's definitely risky on my part.

Yeah, if I had warped my berserker just out of view then I would have been able to combo you Pally since it would bump into my sage. Even then, my sage drew out your Pally and Sniper for like 3 more turns. =P

[geradgerard]

haha yeah idk what i was thinking chasing after you. XD

i think you killed my sage too so it got pretty close.

Edited April 26, 2010 by geradgerard

[Soren9934]

we should...

1.set ban critia formost. I mean any comunity needs a criteria.

then ban whats bannable