H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[Don Draper]

Getting Rody 6/0 is incredibly demanding on your exp pool as well. He is forced to attack at one range for weak damage and is 2HKO'd by everything. Easily your worst unit in the prologue by a mile. Then you have to go to the trouble of feeding him kills (there are very few times when he can get hit exp simply because that leaves him in a vulnerable position due to how fragile he is) just to get a unit who comes out of the prologue slightly better then Base Luke.

Also factor in that it isn't difficult for Draug to get a level in the prologue. Draug is clearly superior, despite Rody's leads in HP and Lck growths.

[Colonel M]

There is also a lot of EXP to go around with the Flying Dragons. In Chapter 11, I even gimped them with Sniper!Luke, who wouldn't double the Flying Dragons, just so Marth could get EXP. Merric is still gaining quite a bit just from this chapter alone and the next chapter. He doesn't even need to "kill" that many of them since they toss around, what, 60 EXP each? There's also the Bandits and the Hunters in the north to get some EXP from. My bigger issue at the moment is considering with Jake and the class growths. I'll grant he looks appealing since he has Parthia to his name and he's only inches off from KOing Flying Dragons, but he's also doubled by the Fire Dragons and Bandits which have 18 Spd at this point. Now, this doesn't mean he's necessarily doomed since Merric is also doubled by the Dragons and Bandits, but of course it puts shoddy questioning on his performance overall. I guess without reclass merging I can't really speak a lot for or against him at the moment. Growth-wise he looks semi-promising. The major question revolves around if he can still get the same amount of EXP by killing Flying Dragons and level adequately on top of it all.

By the way, I finished Chapter 12 yesterday with an 18.62 Merric. If I really felt like it, I could cap him off in the arena to Level 19. He didn't do much combat either in Chapter 12 and Chapter 11 he resorted to the north, which has... maybe 3 Flying Dragons in general.

Edited August 3, 2010 by Colonel M

[Seven Deadly Sins]

He stops being doubled mighty fast. Sniper!Jake has something absurd like a 105% Speed growth, IIRC, meaning he falls out of his "getting doubled" rut fairly fast, and then can Wyrmslayer the Fire Dragons as Swordmaster eventually.

[Colonel M]

He stops being doubled mighty fast. Sniper!Jake has something absurd like a 105% Speed growth, IIRC, meaning he falls out of his "getting doubled" rut fairly fast, and then can Wyrmslayer the Fire Dragons as Swordmaster eventually.

Yes but "how fast" is the major question. Now keep in mind that Ice Dragons sit on 17 AS, so at the very least it's not difficult to dodge that bullet. He has 13 Spd base, and given a level (and assuming the growth is correct) he'll have enough Spd to not be doubled. Though, more problems arise that he's doubled by the Bandits as well (which have 18 AS). Now I'm not saying it's impossible to get him out of the being doubled rut, it's more of "how much EXP does he get per kill?" which I can't really answer with a straight face at the very moment since I didn't have access to reclass restrictions removed.

[grandjackal]

4 levels, switch him over to Swordmaster, he doubles them.

You got a chapter of dragons along with 2 arenas.

[Don Draper]

I think that either Ellerean needs to drop, or Ryan needs to shoot up.

Ryan is of course very useful in the prologue due to not taking counters and doing more damage then characters like Luke or Rody. After the prologue he can go Hunter, and be very useful in earlygame due to bow effectiveness vs. dracos and generally deal effective chip while not being bogged down by archer move. There's never a point where he's a liability, thanks to 1-2 range and passable move. Ellerean doesn't exist in these chapters, so its a win for Ryan. Then when he does show up:

Ryan 15/1 (5 levels as Archer, 9 levels as Hunter): 37.2 HP, 16.9 Str, 19.75 Skl, 15.55 Spd, 8.6 Lck, 12.45 Def

10/1 Ellerean: 32 HP, 10 Mag, 6 Skl, 12 Spd, 2 Lck, 9 Def

I think the stats speak for themselves (keep in mind, Ellerean can't use Excalibur yet). Growthwise, Ellerean grows at the same pace as Ryan in both HP and Spd, and grows slower in his offensive stat, defense and skill. Being stuck in Sage means no growth leads for Ellerean.

Factor in Ryan's availability, and this isn't even close. Ryan is a far better unit then Ellerean

Edited August 9, 2010 by Ari Gold

[grandjackal]

While I don't necessarily disagree with the notion, but I have to ask the following questions.

A. He can grow steadily without being too problematic in stunting hte growth of let's say MU, or Luke?

B. When you were drudging up the stats, did you take into account Hunter growths?

C. Elleraen has C rank at base. You just promoted him. NOW he can use Excalibur. Question is, can he OHKO like Etzel with Capricorn?

Now obviously we can see here that Ryan can put a boot firmly up George's ass, but he has the use that required no growth on his part. Ryan's use is not as assured since his use is in the hands of the RNG gods. Is it truly worth giving him exp when we could give it to others that can help carry us, sooner or later getting George to do our dirty work for us? The question is not if he's good when invested in, but more what's the point of investing in him?

Now obviously the same could be said of Elleraen when he's got 3 superior guys gunning for his job since all 3 of them take no resources and probably do the job better anyways. But I am just summing up a few questions that make me think it should be mroe Elleraen down rather than Ryan up.

[dondon151]

Ellerean still can't use Excalibur after promotion. He needs 60 WEXP from C to B while promotion only gives 30 WEXP.

[grandjackal]

Which case, why is it even a question? Drop Elleraen's ass.

[Don Draper]

A. He can grow steadily without being too problematic in stunting hte growth of let's say MU, or Luke?

Absolutely. While I didn't train Luke in my playthrough, MU came out of the prologue at Level 9, Merric at Level 11, Shiida at Level 8 and Ryan at Level 7.

B. When you were drudging up the stats, did you take into account Hunter growths?

Yes, 5 levels as archer and 9 levels as Hunter were what I used

C. Elleraen has C rank at base. You just promoted him. NOW he can use Excalibur. Question is, can he OHKO like Etzel with Capricorn?

See dondon's post.

Now obviously we can see here that Ryan can put a boot firmly up George's ass, but he has the use that required no growth on his part. Ryan's use is not as assured since his use is in the hands of the RNG gods. Is it truly worth giving him exp when we could give it to others that can help carry us, sooner or later getting George to do our dirty work for us? The question is not if he's good when invested in, but more what's the point of investing in him?

He's a good longterm unit as well as evident from his growths. His high strength allows him to continue to OHKO flyers with Silver (maybe Partia occasionally), while Jeorge really only has that utility in Chapter 11 due to lower strength in the long run. The only stat that may suffer in comparison to the rest of the team is speed. However, its never low enough to be doubled and grows at a modest rate (50%). When you consider his ability to consistently OHKO flyers throughout the game (something somebody like Sirius can't do due to his lower strength), and prolouge/earlygame utility he's an overall solid unit.

[grandjackal]

Absolutely. While I didn't train Luke in my playthrough, MU came out of the prologue at Level 9, Merric at Level 11, Shiida at Level 8 and Ryan at Level 7.

All well and good, though I don't see what the big deal about Maric is either so I'm not sure why you listed him.

He's a good longterm unit as well as evident from his growths. His high strength allows him to continue to OHKO flyers with Silver (maybe Partia occasionally), while Jeorge really only has that utility in Chapter 11 due to lower strength in the long run. The only stat that may suffer in comparison to the rest of the team is speed. However, its never low enough to be doubled and grows at a modest rate (50%). When you consider his ability to consistently OHKO flyers throughout the game (something somebody like Sirius can't do due to his lower strength), and prolouge/earlygame utility he's an overall solid unit.

Which case, how high would you see him?

As for Eleraen, he might as well drop to low. All he's got is heavy chip really.

[Don Draper]

I'm planning on using Maric this PT, so I listed him as well.

I see Eleraen around Maris. Both are rather mediocre units with rather limited utility. I see Ryan around Jeorge's level, and I think the growth units (Frey, Ogma, Roger, etc) in general need to drop. I'm planning on using Barst and Nabarl this PT so I'll be able to comment on them after.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Ari Gold

[grandjackal]

Question.

Any good reference as to when each star shard shows up? Would be nice to have that somewhere so we know what bonuses show up, and when.

Now, let's see what other interesting tidbits I can bring up.

-Minerva as a swordmaster can instantly double Roro in the gaiden, no shards needed. Not sure how much it takes to ORKO a Roro, I just know he's got 16-17 speed.

-Darros can switch to Swordmaster, take the Scorpio orb, we got a 15 Str beast that doubles ice dragons. If we give him Leo and Taurus, does 40 might ORKO Ice Dragons? Thinking this might help when we return to the mainland, pack up with C ranks as Hero, or...Something.

-Is there an Angel Robe that shows up at any time before Cecile gets OHKOd?

-Goddammit, there is not much to do with most of the cast.

[LordZero]

Question.

Any good reference as to when each star shard shows up? Would be nice to have that somewhere so we know what bonuses show up, and when.

They are all in the same spot as they were in FE 3 with the exception of Pisces which now is not in a chest but is being held by a dragon that is ironically standing in the same place as the chest was. Here is a list of the locations I found them in the "Things I should know before I play this" thread

Taurus: Chapter 3 Enemy Ryuke (boss)

Gemini Chapter 5 Enemy Toras (boss)

Aquarius Chapter 6 recruit Samto

Cancer Chapter 6 Enemy Lang (boss)

Libra Chapter 6 Chest

Scorpio Chapter 7 Enemy Thief

Leo Chapter 8 Enemy Thief

Sagittarius Chapter 8 recruit Jeorge

Virgo Chapter 9 recruit Minerva

Capricorn Chapter 9 Chest

Aries Chapter 10 recruit Ellerean

Pisces Chapter 12 Enemy fire dragon

Edited August 10, 2010 by LordZero

[Don Draper]

-Minerva as a swordmaster can instantly double Roro in the gaiden, no shards needed. Not sure how much it takes to ORKO a Roro, I just know he's got 16-17 speed.

46 HP/6 Def for the weakest ones. She has 10 Strength as an SM and C Swords means that she has 19 Atk with Killing Edge. 2RKO, and thats for the weakest ones (some have 50 HP/9 Def, and she 3RKOs those).

-Darros can switch to Swordmaster, take the Scorpio orb, we got a 15 Str beast that doubles ice dragons. If we give him Leo and Taurus, does 40 might ORKO Ice Dragons? Thinking this might help when we return to the mainland, pack up with C ranks as Hero, or...Something.

Base SM Darros has 14 Str, not 15. Ice Dragons have 47 HP/16 Def so if he had 40 might he could ORKO. However, he has 14 Str+1 C Swords+21 effective might from Wyrmslayer, then thats only 36 might. He needs +2 Might forged on it to ORKO.

-Is there an Angel Robe that shows up at any time before Cecile gets OHKOd?

First one comes in Chapter 7 IIRC

Edited August 10, 2010 by Ari Gold

[Rewjeo]

SM Darros has 14 STR, plus 1 from Taurus and 1 MT from C Swords. 16+21 effective MT Wyrmslayer is 37 MT. 1 MT forge still needed, but not a 2 MT forge.

Edit: Not actually arguing either way here.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Slize

[Don Draper]

I forgot GJ wanted to give him Taurus, in which case I don't think a character who requires two heavily contested items (three if you include a forge) in order to perform is very valuable at all.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Yeah, I'm not seeing how Darros is scoring any points, when he needs a forge and a shard to start performing when you should by this time have units capable of providing the same utility.

This is where that "unique utility" clause in the definition of Free Silvers comes into play. If Darros' utility is underperforming and still requiring an inordinate amount of resources, that's not going to do the job.

As for Ryan / Ellerean, iunno. I'll buy Ellerean down, but I don't think Ryan deserves to shoot *that* high. I'd rather pull the silly "Arms Scroll on Jake so he can own with Parthia" thing than use Ryan to kill Flying Dragons, simply because with Jake's awesome growths, he's got a significantly better lategame potential.

I'd be fine with seeing Ryan up, but I also want to see Jake up a significant bit. I'll use him for my playthrough, then get back to you guys.

[Don Draper]

As for Ryan / Ellerean, iunno. I'll buy Ellerean down, but I don't think Ryan deserves to shoot *that* high. I'd rather pull the silly "Arms Scroll on Jake so he can own with Parthia" thing than use Ryan to kill Flying Dragons, simply because with Jake's awesome growths, he's got a significantly better lategame potential.

I'd be fine with seeing Ryan up, but I also want to see Jake up a significant bit. I'll use him for my playthrough, then get back to you guys.

Both as Snipers:

Ryan 15/10 (5 levels as Archer, 9 levels as Hunter): 44.4 HP, 21.4 Str, 26.95 Skl, 20.05 Spd, 12.2 Lck, 15.6 Def

Jake 10: 40.3 HP, 15.4 Str, 17.4 Skl, 22 Spd, 18.3 Lck, 13.6 Def

Paperblade had everyone around 15/10 by Chapter 14, so lets use those stats:

Ice Dragons: 48-49 HP, 18-19 AS, 17 Def

Jake with Silver Bow has 29 Might. He does 12x2 and therefore 2-3RKOs the Ice Dragons

Ryan with Silver Bow has 35 Might. He does 21x1 and therefore 3RKOs the Ice Dragons

However, Ice Dragons have 37 Might. This means that Ryan can take 3 Hits, while Jake can only take 2.

So basically it comes down to either occasionally killing Ice Dragons in 1 less round, or always being 3RKO'd instead of 2RKO'd.

This pattern basically continues. Jake's strength is too pathetic to ever ORKO, so he never has any significant offensive advantage. Factor in Ryan's utility in the prologue and earlygame chapters and he simply has more going for him the Jake...especially because Jake requires an Arms Scroll in order to function.

EDIT: Jake wouldn't even be that high levelled. In Paperblade's run everyone else was about 15/5 by the time he showed up. So he'd be underlevelled, and would likely always miss a 2RKO.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Ari Gold

[fatgamecat]

Seems to be some confusion about bow users and speed still. Not every Lunatic chapter is full of fliers to one shot, in fact the majority of them aren't. You'll want a ranged unit that can consistently double to be useful in Lunatic mode - otherwise they will be dead weight like any other slow party member. Draug did pretty well as a fast horseman for me but I'm still considering other options for my Lunatic' run with male class limits removed.. but I can tell you right now it's not going to be a slowpoke like Ryan or a laughably bad mid-late game prepromote with terrible bases. Bottom line is that slow units of any class, even bow users, are not as useful as fast ones that can double or one round enemies. Merric gets a pass from me because he has other uses besides one shotting fliers, namely healing and wielding starlight.

I've decided that Etzel is not necessary to train up. There's no need for two excalibur users on the team, and his stats suck otherwise. I've made it to Ch 22 and had no problems wiping out any group of air units using merric and 1-2 bow users. Malliesia is good enough as a healbot and I'm getting annoyed that I can't use Hammerne whenever I want. If it turns out I need more stave users with B to abuse the Again stave, I'll just train up Yumina early on to B or something, before the late game when you need someone with A for Fortify. It looks like if you make Katarina a bishop she only needs like 30 stave uses to get to B.. just another option for quickly raising up some Again staff users.

Tiki didn't turn out as useful as I'd hoped, not that I ever spent time leveling her, but she can't one shot the dragons in Ch 22. Nagi can't do so either, although it looks like he could with 1-2 energy drops. I doubt that's worth it though.

So anyway, as far as male class limits goes, I'd recommend the following 11 person party: My Unit, Luke, Draug, Malliesia, Catria, Palla, Sirius, Shiida, Feena, Merric, Xane. Not sure what I'd change with male class limits removed yet.

Edited August 11, 2010 by mjemirzian

[Rewjeo]

Both as Snipers:

Ryan 15/10 (5 levels as Archer, 9 levels as Hunter): 44.4 HP, 21.4 Str, 26.95 Skl, 20.05 Spd, 12.2 Lck, 15.6 Def

Jake 10: 40.3 HP, 15.4 Str, 17.4 Skl, 22 Spd, 18.3 Lck, 13.6 Def

Paperblade had everyone around 15/10 by Chapter 14, so lets use those stats:

Ice Dragons: 48-49 HP, 18-19 AS, 17 Def

Jake with Silver Bow has 29 Might. He does 12x2 and therefore 2-3RKOs the Ice Dragons

Ryan with Silver Bow has 35 Might. He does 21x1 and therefore 3RKOs the Ice Dragons

Unless Ryan is blessed by 2 points, he isn't doubling any. Jake is only doubling the 18 SPD ones unless he is blessed in SPD by a point. Also, if Ryan has 35 MT and Jake has 29, how is Ryan doing 9 more damage per shot?

Edited August 11, 2010 by Slize

[dondon151]

Seems to be some confusion about bow users and speed still. Not every Lunatic chapter is full of fliers to one shot, in fact the majority of them aren't. You'll want a ranged unit that can consistently double to be useful in Lunatic mode - otherwise they will be dead weight like any other slow party member. Draug did pretty well as a fast horseman for me but I'm still considering other options for my Lunatic' run with male class limits removed.. but I can tell you right now it's not going to be a slowpoke like Ryan or a laughably bad mid-late game prepromote with terrible bases.

I think you're missing the point here. IOS is not even trying to argue Ryan out of mid tier. We all know that the top and high tier units are great, have potential, etc., no one is trying to get Ryan into high tier with the rest of the big boys. Nor is anyone saying that Ryan and Jake are your only or best options; the comparison was only between an immediately usable unit and a growth unit to see if it would be worth investing in either of them.

I've decided that Etzel is not necessary to train up. There's no need for two excalibur users on the team, and his stats suck otherwise. I've made it to Ch 22 and had no problems wiping out any group of air units using merric and 1-2 bow users.

There is already something inherently wrong in your logic. You're predisposed to use Merric, which is why you deem Etzel useless. You cite Merric's utility as, basically, wiping out flying units (with Excalibur). That is exactly what Etzel does. I can interchange all instances of Etzel and Merric in this statement and it would be just as valid.

[fatgamecat]

There is already something inherently wrong in your logic. You're predisposed to use Merric, which is why you deem Etzel useless. You cite Merric's utility as, basically, wiping out flying units (with Excalibur). That is exactly what Etzel does. I can interchange all instances of Etzel and Merric in this statement and it would be just as valid.

Way to go making a flaccid accusation of being 'predisposed' while completely ignoring Starlight. I really don't give a care for any unit in particular. I dislike anime plots and huge cartoon eyeballs and I skip every piece of game dialogue even if it's in English. I'm the last person you should be accusing of caring about any particular unit.

Merric will end up with significantly higher stats at 20/20, making him a far better choice to wield starlight. Etzels SPD at 20/20 is 19, he can't even avoid being doubled by the Ch 23 boss (25 SPD) unless you feed him 2 speedwings. You know, the boss that you can only hurt with Starlight, which you conveniently ignored in your reply to me? You don't even need multiple sages to take on the Ch 23 boss, just Merric, Xane, Feena, and maybe an again stave use if you want to take him out in one turn.

Merric on the other hand will easily cap SPD even before 20/20 in addition to having more HP, making him useful even before the Ch 23 boss because he can potentially take a hit without being doubled and killed. Etzel will die if anything 23 or above SPD sneezes on him (assuming he's 20/20), and even the meteor sorcerers start getting 24 SPD by Ch 21, so he can't even risk walking into range of one of them without being doubled and killed (unless I'm missing something and you can't double using meteor).

Edited August 11, 2010 by mjemirzian

[dondon151]

Way to go making a pathetic, flaccid accusation of being 'predisposed' while completely ignoring starlight. I really don't give a care for any unit in particular. I dislike anime plots and huge cartoon eyeballs and I skip every piece of game dialogue even if it's in English. I'm the last person you should be accusing of caring about any particular unit.

If this accusation is incorrect, you have yourself to blame for being vague. First of all, I did not "completely ignore starlight." You did not bring it up in the first place. Yes, I know you said that Merric "gets a pass from me because he has other uses besides one shotting fliers, namely healing and wielding starlight," but that was in a comparison to Ryan, not to Etzel. Furthermore, Etzel can OHKO fliers, heal, and use Starlight, which were Merric's only advantages that you listed in that post. Please, do not get angry at me for not being able to read your mind. I am flattered that you expect that much of me, but that is beyond my capacity.

Merric will end up with significantly higher stats at 20/20, making him a far better choice to wield starlight. Etzels SPD at 20/20 is 19, he can't even avoid being doubled by the Ch 23 boss (25 SPD) unless you feed him 2 speedwings. You know, the boss that you can only hurt with Starlight, which you conveniently ignored in your reply to me? You don't even need multiple sages to take on the Ch 23 boss, just Merric, Xane, Feena, and maybe an again stave use if you want to take him out in one turn.

Yeah, you don't even need Merric, either. Use Linde for Starlight and have Etzel use Excalibur. Furthermore, Gharnef is one enemy in one map of the entire game.

You seem to imply that Merric is necessary for the completion of the game, where he's clearly not. The fact that his lategame is better than Etzel's should be accounted for in their respective positions on the tier list, but that's not what you're arguing here. You said specifically, "I've decided that Etzel is not necessary to train up," which is definitely true, but you most certainly do not need to use Merric, either.

[fatgamecat]

Etzel can only 'use' Starlight to deal the finishing blow, unless you feel like giving him 5000G worth of Speedwings. Linde is difficult to level as a mage due to her low HP/DEF and takes up a spot you'll want for other, better party members early on in the game. You can't swap Linde with Malliesia until she promotes to sage, which doesn't happen until mid game unless you decide to early promote her which makes her stats worse. Having to level two sages out of E/D staves mid to late game is a pain. Etzel and Linde are both very low HP/DEF, niether of them can take a hit, which will limit your available strategies. And I'd like to have easier access to Hammerne. Gharnef is a crucial enemy to kill, don't trivialize him.

Oh great, implying. I thought that was limited to 4chan.