How do u manage to make the DB good?

[Yuglyoshi]

Don't the Adept and Resolve scrolls usually get transferred with Ilyana to the GMs? You know, since that team has far more Part 3 chapters, meaning you get more use out of the skills. I know Dondon definitely sent Resolve over in his 0% growth PT.

[Junkhead]

dondon only needed it to have Gatrie/Mordecai doubling. I don't honestly see how they need it more than the DB. The DB need it for all of their Part 3 chapters. Which are harder.

[Anouleth]

Don't the Adept and Resolve scrolls usually get transferred with Ilyana to the GMs? You know, since that team has far more Part 3 chapters, meaning you get more use out of the skills. I know Dondon definitely sent Resolve over in his 0% growth PT.

I transferred Adept but not Resolve. Other people prefer to transfer Resolve but not Adept. It really depends on your individual situation. I think that anyone who wants to train Nephenee should definitely transfer Adept, but otherwise they can do as they like. Some people only like to focus on two units in Part 3, and in dondon's case he relied almost exclusively on Volug. So naturally, there would be no point in keeping extra skills that nobody is going to use.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Then place a unit next to Volug. Are you really so unimaginative that you cannot conceive of a way to protect a frail unit in a chokepoint that is two spaces wide? Of course, if you are saying what I think you are saying, that you leave the ramp on the right hand side wide open for any enemy to simply stroll into at their leisure and OHKO Micaiah, then you probably can't even use Physic because Laura and Micaiah have pretty poor range. I mean, apparently, their magic is between 10 and 15, giving them a range of 5-7. If you're not forming a wall, they are probably going to be at risk.

Ah, but now you've pointed out a situation where another unit is going to need to get healed. The slope is still impractical for second line mending anyway because 2-range units, though few, still exist. 3-13 has more obvious problems.

Yeah, there's Edward... who would rather have Resolve/Cancel, or Zihark... who would rather have Resolve/Cancel, or Jill... who would rather have Paragon, or Sothe... who is using a Beast Killer anyway. Which leaves, like Nolan as a competitive Beastfoe canditate.

What happened to the GMs for Adept? And Adept on Volug creates problems similar to keeping Adept on Zihark.

I'm not the biggest fan of Energy Drop Volug, but it's certainly a consideration to help out his offense from day 1 all the way into Part 4. Jill is the only person I really consider competition and she is not always in play.

Actually energy drop on Volug I'm not disputing, since it helps him 1 shot mages in Part 1 and ORKO warriors and halbs in 3-12.

I would assume then, that Mo Williams has the best offense/defense, since that is what Volug has and I don't know anything else about him.

Almost sigged. Mo Williams is the best player on the worst team in the NBA. Does this make him a top tier player?

Nolan and Jill have their moments, but keep this in mind:

-Volug is more durable as a level 20/1 Nolan with a full defense support or Dracoshield.

Volug also spends the first two turns doing nothing, has a whopping 1 mov in the river, does not have the flexibility for attacking from 2-range, and lacks a player phase if he's always grassing or healing. And this comparison has been simplified to 3-6.

-Volug OHKOes everything on the map with Beastfoe, as does Nolan.

Except that Volug can also take the Energy Drop for +4 attack while Nolan only gets +2 attack.

So does Lyre?

As for Jill... she just loses to Volug in everything. She doesn't even have good accuracy. Level 20/1 Jill has about the same defense as Volug, but Volug has twenty more HP. He has 8 more skill, 6 more strength and speed as well as a more accurate weapon. Jill eventually becomes good when you sink a bajillion levels into her with Paragon, but before then she's very underwhelming.

Again, 3-6 only when you were talking about all of part 3.

Tiger + Tiger + Cat kills everyone in the Dawn Brigade. Does that mean we should never use Beastfoe? Of course not.

Does it reduce his walling potential? Yes. That was the point.

What else are you going to do with it? The advantage of Wildheart is that if you need to refill your gauge, you can Revert->Halfshift at any point which pumps your gauge back up to 30. This doesn't consume a Player Phase action, so Volug would then be free to eat a Vulnerary or send a Tiger into a fit of laughter by chipping it for 10 damage or run away because suddenly Tigers are 2HKOing and Cats are 3HKOing him. However, laguz mechanics prevent him from using Halfshift to keep him stable when his gauge is low:

All that Wildheart allows you to do is halfshift whenever you want, at any level of gauge, which sets your gauge to 30. When you revert, you take your gauge back down to 0. Obviously, there is no reason for a fully transformed laguz to ever choose to do this, unless he is at a very low level of gauge and worried about untransforming and dying. But even then, it is probably more desirable to just use Olivi Grass, since although Volug gives up a Player Phase to do so, he does about three times as much damage when fully shifted anyway. In addition, if you grow tired of a halfshifted laguz and want to actually kill anything, you need to revert and spent two whole turns gobbling Olivi Grass while untransformed like an idiot to fully transform again. So basically you're stuck with half-Volug for the rest of the chapter, who sucks, to put it frankly.

Yeah, use is situational, but you have times like at the end of chapter or when Volug needs to self-heal with low gauge and still take a hit that you might use it. It's not like Volug has capacity issues with competition like Renewal.

The NPCs usually cockblock one side of to the East. I had that problem you are talking about happen only once, when all NPCs were dead or something.

If you're going for the wall stall it out method, really anyone who can take one hit works. Hell, I've been able to get the NPC's to hold the east by themselves except for one kill at the beginning.

Nolan just needs Beastfoe. Jill needs Brave Axe + Paragon. Why can't Volug have Adept/Resolve combos when he gives good uses to them?

Ask Zihark.

[Anouleth]

Ah, but now you've pointed out a situation where another unit is going to need to get healed. The slope is still impractical for second line mending anyway because 2-range units, though few, still exist. 3-13 has more obvious problems.

Are you being deliberately slow? I pointed out, only half a dozen posts ago, that ranged enemies are not very common in 3-12 and do not get close until a few turns in. Are you even reading these posts?

3-13 is typically over in just a handful of turns. Generally thanks to Volug.

What happened to the GMs for Adept? And Adept on Volug creates problems similar to keeping Adept on Zihark.

Volug can take twice as many hits as Zihark and is more likely to have a B Earth because he has 1 more chapter in Part 1 and can also take a Dracoshield for +4 def which means Tigers are borderline 4HKOing and Cats 6HKO while if Zihark takes it Tigers still 2HKO, Cats go to 3HKO, so with the Dracoshield he can take three times as many hits.

I think GMs are only reasonable competition for Adept if Nephenee is being played. In the case where you are fielding Volug but not Nephenee, he is obviously a superior choice.

Almost sigged. Mo Williams is the best player on the worst team in the NBA. Does this make him a top tier player?

Characters are generally tiered on their contribution to efficient completion. Imagine if you were forced to play a third of all your games using the Cleveland Cavaliers, or whatever they are called. In such a situation, Mr. Williams might very well be top tier because he is contributing a great deal over the course of those games. Similarly, it does not matter if you hate all the Dawn Brigade. You must use them, and frequently, and this gives them numerous opportunities to contribute to an efficient playthrough. The Dawn Brigade might be considered to be 'bad', but saving turns in their chapters is just as valuable as saving turns in any other section of the game.

Volug also spends the first two turns doing nothing, has a whopping 1 mov in the river, does not have the flexibility for attacking from 2-range, and lacks a player phase if he's always grassing or healing. And this comparison has been simplified to 3-6.

Volug has no real way to get around his first two turns, they are his single biggest flaw in Part 3, but aside from that, your qualms are irrelevant. 1 move is not very good, but Volug is much more mobile everywhere else. 1-2 range is not a big deal when so much action in Part 3 takes place on enemy phase and so many enemies lack 1-2 range. The same applies for lack of player phase. Nolan is indeed the only character that can really compare to Volug, but even he has flaws because the possibility of RNG-screwage exists for him, which can compromise his durability since he is on the cusp of getting 2HKOed by Tigers and getting doubled by Cats.

Again, 3-6 only when you were talking about all of part 3.

When is Jill ever likely to catch up? Her growth rates are somewhat better but not so good that they can close this overwhelming lead. Jill would need to be something like 20/20 just to match Volug at base level. By which point Volug could very well be something like level 23, so he still ends up crushing her. Yeah, Jill can take Paragon. Volug can take Paragon and Beastfoe if he felt like it, tear 3-6 apart and be a high enough level to laugh at the rest of Part 3, and we don't need to hand-feed him kills in 3-6 like we do with Jill.

Does it reduce his walling potential? Yes. That was the point.

Generally, if you're doing it right, you will run out of enemies to kill before Volug runs out of HP.

http://www.youtube.com/user/DD151#p/u/60/H5ibnaA1T6I

dondon does it right here. Volug is capable of practically soloing an entire side of the map with only Laura physicing him, even though he uses Beastfoe.

Yeah, use is situational, but you have times like at the end of chapter or when Volug needs to self-heal with low gauge and still take a hit that you might use it. It's not like Volug has capacity issues with competition like Renewal.

If Volug needs to self-heal with low gauge, you did something wrong. You have healers. Use them. The whole point of healers is to allow people like Nolan and Volug to not worry about having to heal themselves.

And even something like Renewal is a far better choice than Wildheart. Over the course of six turns, Renewal heals 30HP. Meaning that if Wildheart Volug would need to mess around and cut his stats to pathetic levels so he can heal, Renewal Volug does not need to heal.

[dondon151]

I can't really tell if Weapons is trolling or actually being serious.

[Junkhead]

If you're going for the wall stall it out method, really anyone who can take one hit works. Hell, I've been able to get the NPC's to hold the east by themselves except for one kill at the beginning.

Yeah, but that just builds a whole on your "Enemies can come around Volug" arguement?

Ask Zihark.

You mean that guy that's sickeningly fragile?

Edited February 13, 2011 by Junes!

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Are you being deliberately slow? I pointed out, only half a dozen posts ago, that ranged enemies are not very common in 3-12 and do not get close until a few turns in. Are you even reading these posts?

Why are you simply ignoring their existence when they do arrive? Chokepointing the slope is also slower than sending units on steroids down.

3-13 is typically over in just a handful of turns. Generally thanks to Volug.

Can you link a playthrough under normal conditions where this happens?

Volug can take twice as many hits as Zihark and is more likely to have a B Earth because he has 1 more chapter in Part 1 and can also take a Dracoshield for +4 def which means Tigers are borderline 4HKOing and Cats 6HKO while if Zihark takes it Tigers still 2HKO, Cats go to 3HKO, so with the Dracoshield he can take three times as many hits.

Outside of Resolve, Volug is easily more durable, but in Resolve Volug still can't afford a tiger hit, 5x15=75, 25 points left = 9 adjacents to B Earth with Nolan. Pulling these 9 turns means restricting Volug's move lead. Dracoshield also usually goes to Nolan. Also at this point, we're talking Volug gets a drop, shield, adept, resolve, earth support, and beastfoe. Might as well throw him a critforge while we're at it.

I think GMs are only reasonable competition for Adept if Nephenee is being played. In the case where you are fielding Volug but not Nephenee, he is obviously a superior choice.

It can help Ike or possibly Titania or Gatrie from 2-range and for generals/sms and then Janaff/Ulki.

Characters are generally tiered on their contribution to efficient completion. Imagine if you were forced to play a third of all your games using the Cleveland Cavaliers, or whatever they are called. In such a situation, Mr. Williams might very well be top tier because he is contributing a great deal over the course of those games. Similarly, it does not matter if you hate all the Dawn Brigade. You must use them, and frequently, and this gives them numerous opportunities to contribute to an efficient playthrough. The Dawn Brigade might be considered to be 'bad', but saving turns in their chapters is just as valuable as saving turns in any other section of the game.

You misunderstand the point. The fact that Volug is the best DBer alone should not equate to top tier because it ignores how much impact the difference between him and next guy matters. To return this analogy to FE, take FE6, where Marcus is somewhere between best unit and usable to the Isles, about a third of the game, but does not make him top tier.

Volug has no real way to get around his first two turns, they are his single biggest flaw in Part 3, but aside from that, your qualms are irrelevant. 1 move is not very good, but Volug is much more mobile everywhere else. 1-2 range is not a big deal when so much action in Part 3 takes place on enemy phase and so many enemies lack 1-2 range. The same applies for lack of player phase. Nolan is indeed the only character that can really compare to Volug, but even he has flaws because the possibility of RNG-screwage exists for him, which can compromise his durability since he is on the cusp of getting 2HKOed by Tigers and getting doubled by Cats.

Where does Volug's move lead matter in part 3? 1-2 range allows potentially 4 units to attack the same unit, allowing someone like BeastKiller Sothe to not have to take a counter. It simply offers positional flexibility.

When is Jill ever likely to catch up? Her growth rates are somewhat better but not so good that they can close this overwhelming lead. Jill would need to be something like 20/20 just to match Volug at base level. By which point Volug could very well be something like level 23, so he still ends up crushing her. Yeah, Jill can take Paragon. Volug can take Paragon and Beastfoe if he felt like it, tear 3-6 apart and be a high enough level to laugh at the rest of Part 3, and we don't need to hand-feed him kills in 3-6 like we do with Jill.

Have you seen any of the recent efficient playthroughs?

Generally, if you're doing it right, you will run out of enemies to kill before Volug runs out of HP.

http://www.youtube.com/user/DD151#p/u/60/H5ibnaA1T6I

dondon does it right here. Volug is capable of practically soloing an entire side of the map with only Laura physicing him, even though he uses Beastfoe.

So then you've seen 3-12, which is one of the chapters dondon does worse in comparison to other playthroughs, despite tactician skill difference. And compare Volug's level there to your above claim.

If Volug needs to self-heal with low gauge, you did something wrong. You have healers. Use them. The whole point of healers is to allow people like Nolan and Volug to not worry about having to heal themselves.

Okay.

And even something like Renewal is a far better choice than Wildheart. Over the course of six turns, Renewal heals 30HP. Meaning that if Wildheart Volug would need to mess around and cut his stats to pathetic levels so he can heal, Renewal Volug does not need to heal.

Competition wasn't the right word to use here as Volug can probably use both.

Yeah, but that just builds a whole on your "Enemies can come around Volug" arguement?

In that method, Volug's advantages are minimal.

[RNG Princess]

Nolan/Jill take tie in part 3 and part 4, Nolan + tarvos+ beastfoe can face more enemies and Jill's flight packed with paragon/beastfoe/hammer is nice. I say Volug is better with resolve just to help him dodge more often because he's probably already killing things giving him beastfoe seems unnecessary and overkill. The thing is with Volug he takes less work than Jill/Nolan, and he can definitely help take out Ike if he has the appropriate speed (I used BEXP n^^'). In the end Volug ends up loosing though, Nolan and Jill are better for endgame, but I think thats really where they beat him everywhere else he > them or ties with them.

Oh nvm Jill > Volug in part 4 ^^' due to forged hand axes.

Edited February 13, 2011 by Queen_Elincia