FE7 HHM Unranked Tier List v4

[Sol Hiryu]

I know I don't participate all that much in tier lists, but I have an honest question: if Sain and Kent are the top of high because we can get one of them to promote in LHM through massive leveling, where does that leave everyone else? Two different playthroughs going the Sainadin route so far have left Lyn sitting at level 5, with stats roughly on par with what she would have come with if LHM wasn't played at all. Since non-LHM Lyn is a lot worse than a trained LHM one regularly, where would this leave her (and everyone else not named Sain/Kent/Florina)?

I could always be missing something here, too. God knows that happens a lot.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Most everyone else doesn't get much out of Lyn Mode either (Serra never gets anything, Rath is better off dying for the buffed Defense and junk, Lucius and Erk usually don't gain that many levels, etc.), and also most of these "sainadin" runs have been more focused absolutely on Sain rather than "Sain + usable Lyn". One would assume that if you actually intend to use Lyn in the main mode, you would favor her slightly, just like if you were intending to use Lucius over Erk, you'd be giving Lucius the lion's share of kills that are available to the two of them.

In my original "Sainadin" run, my Lyn came out at around 6.82, and that's without trying to get her buffed up; if I actually concentrated on going Sainadin and, say... only using Florina for earlygame ferrying, then I could probably get Lyn out at 7 or 8. Still, I think the effect of an efficient Lyn Mode on characters is fairly skewed, as it's simply "easier" to get EXP for the Cavaliers in an efficient run due to the fact that most of the levels are very linear and it's easy to abuse their 7 movement to get them levels.

Remember: Just because some people have done it one way doesn't mean that everyone has to, or that's how every run will be. These runs are merely guidelines.

[Geriba]

Florina/Lyn C is one turn. B is twenty more. Florina is not doing that much flying. If she wants to stay alive in later maps, she needs combat, which Lyn can both help with and be around for most of the time. See, the thing is, Florina isn't someone like FE10 Haar who can just fly around and be badass by herself; her stats alone are pretty subpar, especially early on, so you'd want to make an effort to get the increase wherever and whenever reasonable to help her out in levels. Eliwood and Hector can easily have C by the time Florina and Lyn start building, but they won't have B much faster, and if A is viable at all Lyn and Florina will hit it first.

I wouldn't call it "minor" at all, either. You should be able to hit B in a reasonable amount of time, and that's 2 atk and 10 crit on top of 1 Def (and other useless stuff like Hit and Dodge). That's a pretty significant offensive boost when these two can often be pretty borderline on kills. If you can reach A (which I think is easy, but w/e. I did it in my ranked run by, like, chapter 25), 6 damage per round is quite a difference. 15 extra crit is also really good, especially when enemies have no Luck to eat any of it up and Lyn especially has naturally high Skl, and it can save some Mani Katti uses.

Eliwood's early game problems are less offensive than they are defensive. He wins concrete durability against, like, Rebecca, and maybe Bartre (and Serra, but who cares). But then he's also the only one without ranged options (Guy aside, but Guy easily wins durability and offense), so he pretty much always takes counters. Even Matthew could give him a run for his money due to LM leveling and better avoid. His offense isn't stellar, either. Sure, he has Rapier, but WTD is calculated before effective bonuses, so since Cavs and Knights almost always have Lances he's not even really that good against them except for finishing blows since he isn't OHKOing like Hector's Wolf Beil. And he never doubles. He's got, like, Nomads, but at least from my experience he tends to be at least 2 points short of OHKOs anyway, and just about anyone can 2HKO them.

Let's analyze that bolded part in-depth. You're claiming that the Florina/Lyn support is feasible because Florina could use Lyn's help with combat experience, right? In any given situation where a unit can be weakened by Lyn to the point of it being one-shot-able by Florina, you have to consider how the units will be placed relative to one another. Let's say that Lyn goes up to an enemy's left side, attacks, and gets it down to a few hit points. Florina has one of two options: she can either go adjacent to the enemy and strike a kill with the Slim lance, or she can fly adjacent to Lyn (which contributes to the support) and use a Javelin, which weighs her down and leaves her seriously vulnerable to other attacks. In almost every case, then, Florina is better off sacrificing the support points in order to avoid weighing herself down. There's also the issue of unit deployment slots to consider. With Hector/Eliwood, you only need to sacrifice one unit slot, while with Lyn/Florina, you need to sacrifice two.

You can bash Eliwood's early game all you want, but there's one thing he undoubtedly has over Lyn in that regard: he's actually contributing during that time. At a bare minimum, he can help clean up kills or set up kills against cavaliers/knights for the five chapters Lyn's not around, which contributes to total team utility; by that point, his offensive and defensive games have seriously improved. Let's compare some stats:

                  HP              Str            Skill         Speed          Def              Res            Luck
Eliwood (Lv. 5)    21.2 ±0.8	6.8 ±1.0	7.0 ±1.0	8.6 ±1.0	6.2 ±0.9	1.4 ±1.0	8.8 ±1.0	

Lyn (Lv. 7)       20.2 ±1.1	6.4 ±1.2	10.6 ±1.2	12.6 ±1.2	3.2 ±1.0	1.8 ±1.1	8.3 ±1.2	

With the Hector C Support boosts, that's another 1 defense. By the end of the next few maps, the two will easily be at a B, which means +1 strength and +2 defense. At this point, Eliwood can double a good number of things, has much better defense, and still wields a Prf. weapon of his own. Lyn undoubtedly has better speed, but to make up that offensive gap, she needs the Florina support. Let's take a look at how likely this is in the following chapters (and I'm going to be kind and assume that both are deployed in every chapter):

16 -> Start on opposite sides of the map; Florina will be getting kills towards the bottom-left and then do ferrying responsibilities, while Lyn will be getting kills towards the bottom-right and then do some shopping.

17 -> Florina will want to stay back the first turn because of the risk of archers, so that'll be one turn together with Lyn; after that, however, she'll likely be helping to ferry Matthew around from the bottom-left to the top-left of the map.

17x -> Short chapter, dangerous enemies. Florina will want to rush up to the top-left village once an opening presents itself, while Lyn will be stuck either waiting at the beginning or else struggling to take on the tough pirates in the middle.

18 -> Lyn won't want to touch the shamans towards the right, which are Florina's specialty. There's an immediate divide between the two.

19 -> A big FoW map means that Florina will be busy ferrying people while trying to clean up kills, staying towards the middle so as to recruit Fiora without hassle. Probably a few turns together here as well.

19x -> Florina's going to want to take on the pegasus knights across the mountains, and once Kishuna shows up, she'd appreciate the experience gained from chipping away at the snipers.

19xx -> lol no one goes here

20 -> Completely different roles. This is a huge chapter with a lot going on, and a good player will be utilizing Florina's 7-move to its full effect.

And the list goes on. All the while, Eliwood and Hector, with their near-identical team roles and same movement, are going to be reaching a B with ease and rounding towards an A. I'll grant the Florina/Lyn C- though even that can't be taken for granted- but the B support seems entirely unlikely for a good while. If you really want to bridge the offensive gap between Eliwood and Lyn through the Florina support, you have to clip the wings off of your only flier and force her to travel at a sluggish pace; that's certainly a bad trade.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Jaffar7

[Florete]

Let's analyze that bolded part in-depth. You're claiming that the Florina/Lyn support is feasible because Florina could use Lyn's help with combat experience, right? In any given situation where a unit can be weakened by Lyn to the point of it being one-shot-able by Florina, you have to consider how the units will be placed relative to one another. Let's say that Lyn goes up to an enemy's left side, attacks, and gets it down to a few hit points. Florina has one of two options: she can either go adjacent to the enemy and strike a kill with the Slim lance, or she can fly adjacent to Lyn (which contributes to the support) and use a Javelin, which weighs her down and leaves her seriously vulnerable to other attacks. In almost every case, then, Florina is better off sacrificing the support points in order to avoid weighing herself down.

There are many more scenarios than what you are giving here. What if a unit didn't need to be weakened, or was weakened by someone else? Two enemies side-by-side, Lyn and Florina can kill one each and be next to each other. What if one of them has nothing else to do that turn anyway? One kills, the other sits tight next to her. What if there's no risk of other enemies attacking her (which this helps with, btw)? Javelin is free to use.

You can bash Eliwood's early game all you want, but there's one thing he undoubtedly has over Lyn in that regard: he's actually contributing during that time. At a bare minimum, he can help clean up kills or set up kills against cavaliers/knights for the five chapters Lyn's not around, which contributes to total team utility; by that point, his offensive and defensive games have seriously improved.

I never said it was a negative or anything, I just said it isn't worth much. Rebecca gets positive points for her early game but she's still a bad unit.

Let's compare some stats:

                  HP              Str            Skill         Speed          Def              Res            Luck
Eliwood (Lv. 5)    21.2 ±0.8	6.8 ±1.0	7.0 ±1.0	8.6 ±1.0	6.2 ±0.9	1.4 ±1.0	8.8 ±1.0	

Lyn (Lv. 7)       20.2 ±1.1	6.4 ±1.2	10.6 ±1.2	12.6 ±1.2	3.2 ±1.0	1.8 ±1.1	8.3 ±1.2	

Personally I'd say Lyn's level is too low because I normally get her out of LHM at at least level 9, but then there's this whole Sainadin thing running around and really throwing things for a loop, so I'm not sure anymore.

With the Hector C Support boosts, that's another 1 defense. By the end of the next few maps, the two will easily be at a B, which means +1 strength and +2 defense. At this point, Eliwood can double a good number of things, has much better defense, and still wields a Prf. weapon of his own. Lyn undoubtedly has better speed, but to make up that offensive gap, she needs the Florina support. Let's take a look at how likely this is in the following chapters (and I'm going to be kind and assume that both are deployed in every chapter):

I find it interesting you show no enemy stats to prove that Eliwood doubles, which I think is important because I tend to find him extremely borderline on doubles. And then you forgot a few more things:

Lyn has a shot at the LHM Energy Ring, a possible +2 Str to put to use.

Mani Katti has 1 MT and 10 crit on the Rapier, as well as more uses naturally but the Rapier has already been used some.

If this were ranked, there'd also be Rapier's 6k vs Mani Katti's free, but that's nothing here.

16 -> Start on opposite sides of the map; Florina will be getting kills towards the bottom-left and then do ferrying responsibilities, while Lyn will be getting kills towards the bottom-right and then do some shopping.

Why is Lyn doing shopping? Wil's useless ass is already here.

17 -> Florina will want to stay back the first turn because of the risk of archers, so that'll be one turn together with Lyn; after that, however, she'll likely be helping to ferry Matthew around from the bottom-left to the top-left of the map.

You have 5 mounted units to utilize and no terrain to fly over. Why is Florina given the task of ferrying Matthew? It's a smarter decision to keep her with Lyn to build support.

Remember, since you want this support to happen, you'll try to get it built when reasonable. If someone else can take over the ferrying task just as easily, the player will decide on that so Lyn and Florina can build support.

17x -> Short chapter, dangerous enemies. Florina will want to rush up to the top-left village once an opening presents itself, while Lyn will be stuck either waiting at the beginning or else struggling to take on the tough pirates in the middle.

My Lyn is always pretty much my best choice to take on those Pirates, though again I might have her at higher levels. Either way I agree this is one where they'll build little, if any, support.

18 -> Lyn won't want to touch the shamans towards the right, which are Florina's specialty. There's an immediate divide between the two.

Shamans are at the left, actually. Why won't Lyn want to touch Shamans? The right side is all Swordies and some Pegs.

19 -> A big FoW map means that Florina will be busy ferrying people while trying to clean up kills, staying towards the middle so as to recruit Fiora without hassle. Probably a few turns together here as well.

Agreed.

19x -> Florina's going to want to take on the pegasus knights across the mountains, and once Kishuna shows up, she'd appreciate the experience gained from chipping away at the snipers.

I tend to find it's better to let the Pegs come to fight a Sword user with their Axereavers because I don't remember Florina faring too well against them on her own. Either way it's true that she'll likely fly over the mountain, though, so only a couple turns here at best.

20 -> Completely different roles. This is a huge chapter with a lot going on, and a good player will be utilizing Florina's 7-move to its full effect.

I have no idea how people do this in general, so there's not much to say. Due to Lyn being force deployed here I'd say you should take advantage and build as much as possible, especially in the cramped areas, but I can't be too sure.

And the list goes on. All the while, Eliwood and Hector, with their near-identical team roles and same movement, are going to be reaching a B with ease and rounding towards an A. I'll grant the Florina/Lyn C- though even that can't be taken for granted- but the B support seems entirely unlikely for a good while. If you really want to bridge the offensive gap between Eliwood and Lyn through the Florina support, you have to clip the wings off of your only flier and force her to travel at a sluggish pace; that's certainly a bad trade.

You're overstating the problems with Florina supporting Lyn. I also feel like you're trying to build Eliwood and Hector too fast, though that may be due in part to the fact that I don't always deploy Eliwood (and the reason for that is generally because Lyn always performs so much better, so...).

Anyway, the main issue I have with Eliwood is neither his offense or defense alone, but both of them combined. Neither really seem good enough to justify his prolonged use. He's not like Oswin who, while he may not kill, will be sure to live and put a good dent in the enemy. Neither is he like Lyn who has a good shot at killing the enemy. He can only take a few hits and not usually do too much in return. While Lyn may have worse durability, I can rely more on her to kill the enemy, and that's an enemy that someone else doesn't have to finish off now, so they can go kill a different enemy and my enemy phase is all the more safe as a result. In this way, Lyn is helping to make things go faster more than Eliwood is, which is the point of the list and is why I see her > him.

The Florina support, with its possible +3 atk and +15 crit, complements this. It cannot always be used, I understand and accept that, but for where it can it's a great help to both and is a big part of the reason they are always so useful for me despite almost always being well below average in concrete durability.

[grandjackal]

Yeah, 8 speed is not doubling anything aside from armors, a task so easy that only Bartre fails to do so. Taking a look at stats for chapter 16 and 17, he doubles a grand total of archers wielding steel bows, and considering he needs to use Iron to double (yeah, forgot about stronger weapons, didn't you guys?),unless you feel stupid enough to waste Rapier use on an ARCHER, he's not killing it either. In fact, even if he had Steel, 6 Str ain't cutting it. If Lyn did in fact get the energy ring, looking at lvl 8-9 stats, it would be a clean kill with Steel. Regardless, the 2 things Lyn can't double consistently are mercs and myrms, and even mercs are pretty borderline.

So yeah, Elidurf is not doubling shit any time soon.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Amaterasu

[Geriba]

Yeah, 8 speed is not doubling anything aside from armors, a task so easy that only Bartre fails to do so. Taking a look at stats for chapter 16 and 17, he doubles a grand total of archers wielding steel bows, and considering he needs to use Iron to double (yeah, forgot about stronger weapons, didn't you guys?),unless you feel stupid enough to waste Rapier use on an ARCHER, he's not killing it either. In fact, even if he had Steel, 6 Str ain't cutting it. If Lyn did in fact get the energy ring, looking at lvl 8-9 stats, it would be a clean kill with Steel. Regardless, the 2 things Lyn can't double consistently are mercs and myrms, and even mercs are pretty borderline.

So yeah, Elidurf is not doubling shit any time soon.

It's 9 speed, actually (8.6 rounds up here). I suppose I'll do some enemy stat analysis later on, since that's been requested, but the bias in this post is baffling. "Elidurf"? And then you're not going to give him credit for using the rapier on the archer because you want to save it? I could make the same case against Lyn and her Mani Katti. Eliwood is the only unit who can employ the rapier, and since his early-game finds him at his weakest (and because funds don't matter here), you're damn right he'll be using it against the archer.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Jaffar7

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, there is the lack of uses. Clearly you'd want to use Rapier in such a way to maximize its benefit to us. Is Eliwood in position to attack Cavs and Armors so rarely that he can afford to use his special weapon against simple archers? At least Lyn gets 45 uses compared to however many Eliwood has remaining when Lyn appears. Max 40. And with an extra 10 crit, as well as a support that stacks crit rather than half crit (and more skill), she's also quite likely to save many uses due to criting things she 3HKOs or better with her first strike.

Basically, you can afford to be a little less conservative with her mani katti uses than with Eliwood's Rapier uses. Eliwood needs to last more chapters with fewer uses on his Rapier while being less likely to save uses through criting.

[Geriba]

There are many more scenarios than what you are giving here. What if a unit didn't need to be weakened, or was weakened by someone else? Two enemies side-by-side, Lyn and Florina can kill one each and be next to each other. What if one of them has nothing else to do that turn anyway? One kills, the other sits tight next to her. What if there's no risk of other enemies attacking her (which this helps with, btw)? Javelin is free to use.

Surely you can admit that these scenarios, while not completely absent from gameplay, represent the vast minority of situations. The "nothing else to do that turn" argument especially strikes me as reaching. In a ranked run, maybe, but in an efficiency run? If you find that Lyn isn't doing much in a chapter (and Florina will always have something going on; that's what makes her such an exceptional utility unit), then field somebody else.

I never said it was a negative or anything, I just said it isn't worth much. Rebecca gets positive points for her early game but she's still a bad unit.

Completely unfair comparison. You're really going to equate Becca's pathetic bow-lock, poor base stats, and Player Phase-only performance (which reflects about 30% of total gameplay) to Eliwood?

Personally I'd say Lyn's level is too low because I normally get her out of LHM at at least level 9, but then there's this whole Sainadin thing running around and really throwing things for a loop, so I'm not sure anymore.

Indeed, it's tricky business. Though I think Eliwood could easily each level 6 by that time as well.

I find it interesting you show no enemy stats to prove that Eliwood doubles, which I think is important because I tend to find him extremely borderline on doubles. And then you forgot a few more things:

Lyn has a shot at the LHM Energy Ring, a possible +2 Str to put to use.

Mani Katti has 1 MT and 10 crit on the Rapier, as well as more uses naturally but the Rapier has already been used some.

If this were ranked, there'd also be Rapier's 6k vs Mani Katti's free, but that's nothing here.

1) As was previously argued, Lyn's got serious competition for that Energy Ring. Even if we're generous and give her a 33% chance of getting the ring, that averages out to a +.66 strength boost. If you want to factor that in, be my guest.

2) You can't penalize the rapier for being used... it comes earlier, after all! And the Mani Katti is certainly the better weapon, no question, but the difference is hardly that significant.

3) True.

Why is Lyn doing shopping? Wil's useless ass is already here.

Haha, good point! Though the total number of enemies available to the right-hand group is low, and she'll be competing with Kent and Sain.

You have 5 mounted units to utilize and no terrain to fly over. Why is Florina given the task of ferrying Matthew? It's a smarter decision to keep her with Lyn to build support.

Remember, since you want this support to happen, you'll try to get it built when reasonable. If someone else can take over the ferrying task just as easily, the player will decide on that so Lyn and Florina can build support.

You've got Florina, Kent, Sain, Lowen, Marcus, and Priscilla, so that's actually six (although the last one needs to be at the front of the group to recruit Raven in good time). I might give you this, but at most, that's going to be a handful of turns, because even if you sacrifice a bit of Florina's move for a few turns, you can't keep her at five the entire chapter. Further, there's the issue of deployment limitations to consider. While you have five other units to consider using for ferrying, you're likely not going to bring all of them. What if you're not using Lowen that playthrough, or want to use Marcus's slot for a lower-level unit? There are hardly any guarantees in this regard, and at best, I can see maybe a few turns.

Shamans are at the left, actually. Why won't Lyn want to touch Shamans? The right side is all Swordies and some Pegs.

I meant the left, whoops. The left side is infinitely better-dealt with by Florina, Lucius, and Erk. Lyn will have trouble surviving those guys, whereas she can hold her own on the right against the melee units.

I have no idea how people do this in general, so there's not much to say. Due to Lyn being force deployed here I'd say you should take advantage and build as much as possible, especially in the cramped areas, but I can't be too sure.

Realistically, this is simply not going to happen.

Anyway, the main issue I have with Eliwood is neither his offense or defense alone, but both of them combined. Neither really seem good enough to justify his prolonged use. He's not like Oswin who, while he may not kill, will be sure to live and put a good dent in the enemy. Neither is he like Lyn who has a good shot at killing the enemy. He can only take a few hits and not usually do too much in return. While Lyn may have worse durability, I can rely more on her to kill the enemy, and that's an enemy that someone else doesn't have to finish off now, so they can go kill a different enemy and my enemy phase is all the more safe as a result. In this way, Lyn is helping to make things go faster more than Eliwood is, which is the point of the list and is why I see her > him.

This will have to be settled with the pending enemy analysis.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Jaffar7

[Geriba]

Well, there is the lack of uses. Clearly you'd want to use Rapier in such a way to maximize its benefit to us. Is Eliwood in position to attack Cavs and Armors so rarely that he can afford to use his special weapon against simple archers? At least Lyn gets 45 uses compared to however many Eliwood has remaining when Lyn appears. Max 40. And with an extra 10 crit, as well as a support that stacks crit rather than half crit (and more skill), she's also quite likely to save many uses due to criting things she 3HKOs or better with her first strike.

Basically, you can afford to be a little less conservative with her mani katti uses than with Eliwood's Rapier uses. Eliwood needs to last more chapters with fewer uses on his Rapier while being less likely to save uses through criting.

There's something circular about this line of thinking. Eliwood is being criticized for his early-game being mediocre (and I expect we'll all agree that his mid-game and post-promotion performance is pretty exceptional), and the one thing that can really get him out of that situation- his rapier- is somehow off-limits because he'll "need it later." No, he won't need it later, if he's not even being used. I'll be the first to admit that without fairly liberal rapier use early on, he'll fall behind in levels and struggle to catch up; thankfully, that's not a choice he needs to make. In a nutshell, Eliwood should be using the rapier pretty much exclusively up until he reaches the double digits level-wise.

[Anouleth]

17 -> Florina will want to stay back the first turn because of the risk of archers, so that'll be one turn together with Lyn; after that, however, she'll likely be helping to ferry Matthew around from the bottom-left to the top-left of the map.

Uh, why the hell would we do that? It takes like, a million turns to drag Matthew's ass up there and there's literally no point since you can just grab the loot off the Thieves.

[Narga_Rocks]

There's something circular about this line of thinking. Eliwood is being criticized for his early-game being mediocre (and I expect we'll all agree that his mid-game and post-promotion performance is pretty exceptional), and the one thing that can really get him out of that situation- his rapier- is somehow off-limits because he'll "need it later." No, he won't need it later, if he's not even being used. I'll be the first to admit that without fairly liberal rapier use early on, he'll fall behind in levels and struggle to catch up; thankfully, that's not a choice he needs to make. In a nutshell, Eliwood should be using the rapier pretty much exclusively up until he reaches the double digits level-wise.

Nice double post. Edit next time.

Anyway, it's not circular at all. He's being criticized for being mediocre early. That doesn't mean it is worth nothing, so he gets some credit. They are saying it isn't worth much. However, how little is it worth? Clearly, it is worth a varying amount based on how much you use the rapier. You haven't actually gone to the trouble of saying much about his early game, though, so I'll just assume that he's using it as much early as he is once she appears. Clearly it will have been used. Probably below 30 now. And Eliwood's early game is not worth much. Unfortunately it is difficult to define "not worth much".

And he's not restricted from using the rapier. Obviously he will be using it. However, he needs to be more careful using it than she is. How long will it last if he uses it every turn? How long will hers last?

If you really insist on him using it on everything early on, then clearly Lyn can use hers on everything, too (given she has more uses and saves more uses through crits). Much better crit and an extra attack point. 2 extra on armors and cavs. And she can use her epic weapon more than enough to partially cancel some of eli's early game utility, since his early game is dependent on that rapier and he'll have worse weapons once it is broken compared to what she can use on stuff (namely those extra uses on her prf).

Edited January 14, 2011 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

It's 9 speed, actually (8.6 rounds up here).

Looking up stats again, the exact difference this makes is zilch.

I suppose I'll do some enemy stat analysis later on, since that's been requested, but the bias in this boast is baffling.

What boasting is going on here? I am not biased against Eliwood, merely biased against 8-9 speed for chapter 16 and 17. I think that's a good thing to be biased against.

"Elidurf"?

Considering he's doubling a grand total of 1 enemy on the map, and in the following chapter the only thing he doubles is the 1 enemy everyone doubles, I would consider this performance durfy. Followed by the fact his name is Eliwood, it is a logical conclusion that "Elidurf" is a suitable title for him early on.

And then you're not going to give him credit for using the rapier on the archer because you want to save it? I could make the same case against Lyn and her Mani Katti.

Difference being that with the Energy Ring, Lyn can actually kill things with her weapon, because she doubles more consistently. I'm going to give you an example as to why the Mani Katti might be used more often. Has Eliwood ever tried to kill a cavalier by himself? No, but Lyn can. Can Eliwood kill a mage? No, because he can't double their 7 AS. But Lyn can(and might not even need something stronger than iron to do it).

The reason Lyn gets more liberal use of her Katti is because she can actually double consistently with her weapon, and thus score kills that she normally wouldn't get with iron or steel (in fact, the Katti is basically a 40 use weightless steel sword with double slayer effectiveness and 10 crit, which can be seen better than the Rapier of which is 1 might weaker, and in the hands ofsomeone less offensively competent). On top of this, being a cantidate for the Energy Ring means that she is HM Guy with a Str growth that's actually stable and doesn't have to compete with Raven for a promotion item.

Which further reminds me that due to the fact that she doubles means that one could be a bit more allowing of Lyn to use specialty weapons such as Guy's killing edge (Though I'd say that's only allowable over actually using Guy early on if we gave Lyn the energy ring in Lyn's mode)

Eliwood is the only unit who can employ the rapier, and since his early-game finds him at his weakest (and because funds don't matter here), you're damn right he'll be using it against the archer.

Did you forget the part where he doesn't actually kill said 24 HP 5 Def archer even with the Rapier? 13 might, he's lucky he's not 4HKOing while he's at it. What a smart use of the weapon. I also like how you sound so proud of this, despite the fact you still have yet to answer to the thing about how this is the one enemy he doubles on the map while Lyn flat out does not have that problem.

But if we want to measure Eliwood's might with the Rapier, fine. Let's say he goes up against anything it's effective against during the period he exists while Lyn doesn't. This is 19 might, 18 against those that wield lances. Congratulations, you have matched base Dorcas using a basic Iron Axe. Except wait, Dorcas's 17 might (+1 with those lancers mentioned) is more consistent, so...He's half-Dorcas. So, his offense is inconsistent (12 might is not heartstopping by any means), and his durability is above only the likes of the fantastic tank we know better as Rebecca. Such a brilliant performance just to wind up with Lyn if she had gimped speed.

Face it man, Eliwood's start is pretty horrid.

EDIT: Oh hello, I got ninja'd by 2 people. Hate you guys.

And as a note, his Rapier isn't "Off limits", but rather it's "Still not killing things, so why waste it?". What, is Eliwood so desperate he needs the Rapier to kill things that were already weakened for him?

Edited January 14, 2011 by Amaterasu

[Anouleth]

But if we want to measure Eliwood's might with the Rapier, fine. Let's say he goes up against anything it's effective against during the period he exists while Lyn doesn't. This is 19 might, 18 against those that wield lances. Congratulations, you have matched base Dorcas using a basic Iron Axe. Except wait, Dorcas's 17 might (+1 with those lancers mentioned) is more consistent, so...He's half-Dorcas. So, his offense is inconsistent (12 might is not heartstopping by any means), and his durability is above only the likes of the fantastic tank we know better as Rebecca. Such a brilliant performance just to wind up with Lyn if she had gimped speed.

Actually, Eliwood would have 17 attack, not 18, because WTD is applied before effective bonuses.

[dondon151]

There's really no reason to not spam Rapier earlygame unless Eliwood can KO with Iron Sword or Steel Sword. 40 uses lasts a long time. If Eliwood ever gets to a promotion level, he won't need the Rapier anymore (and even if he wanted it, the benefits of using it early on outweigh the cost of not having it later).

[Narga_Rocks]

There's really no reason to not spam Rapier earlygame unless Eliwood can KO with Iron Sword or Steel Sword. 40 uses lasts a long time. If Eliwood ever gets to a promotion level, he won't need the Rapier anymore (and even if he wanted it, the benefits of using it early on outweigh the cost of not having it later).

Well, it helps that the thing is so weak on lance users, actually. 12 mt is the same as the silver sword has on lances. Using it early is smart since there's no point in saving it at all. Now, had this been the japanese version it might be a different story (assuming it had the same 7 mt there for 18 on lances) but it isn't. Of course, if it was 3x effective then Lyn would have 21 on lances.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Need I remind you that Lyn is doubling everything? Forever? With a stronger weapon that has more crit and more uses? Eliwood is bad at everything when he shows up, and this is a time where you're more interested in giving EXP to characters like Hector and Lowen, and Marcus is busy fuckblitzing absolutely everything. Eliwood is terrible early.

Then you hit Ch. 16, and you get Lyn. We assume we're actually using Lyn for combat here, so we can assume that she may have access to either the robe, the ring, or both. She's already creaming Eliwood offensively (doubling with 16 mt >>>>>> not doubling with 14 mt), and if she gets the ring she's even leading by 2 Strength (and staying on par for the rest of the game no less). This lead NEVER GOES AWAY. On top of that, if she gets the Robe, she's got a 6 HP lead on Eliwood, and while she loses in Defense by 3, the difference in HP means that both are 2HKOed by 17 mt. Eliwood's durability is literally only better when enemies have exactly 12 Atk (Eliwood is 4hkoed while AR Lyn is 3hkoed), and at all times their durability is literally a tie. Eliwood only becomes "good" when he starts reliably doubling things, but that's a tall order, and Lyn's durability gets a huge buff on promotion (+3 HP, +3 Def, +5 Res), as well as getting an accurate 2-range option (not as good as Javelins, but better than nothing).

Say it with me here:

Lyn is doubling forever.

Lyn is doubling forever.

Lyn is doubling forever.

Those Cavaliers in Ch. 21? Eliwood can't fuck with them. He's too slow and too weak. Lyn's doubling them with a 12 MT weapon, and ORKOing them if not Critical OHKOing them without even breaking a sweat. What's Eliwood doing? Poking them gently with a Rapier and slowing your team down by getting in the way while you try in vain to rush fast enough to get the Member Card.

Cavaliers never really "go away" either, and while you might say that Bows aren't that great as a promotion weapon, Lyn is using them to bitchslap Wyverns out of the sky at 2 range with a Killer Bow. Remind me what Eliwood is doing to Wyverns again?

So in short:

Lyn with any form of boosting item wipes the fucking floor with Eliwood. She'd rather have the Angelic Robe for the most part, but either way, she's not that much worse defensively and she's bitch-slapping him offensively. On top of that, she has no problem levelling because she has no problem KILLING THINGS BY HERSELF, something Eliwood will basically never be capable of doing. And while a Hector support might seem kinda nice and fluffy and friendly, you still have to deal with the fact that Hector won't be that great a partner in the mid-lategame when he's capped his level and is in severe danger of getting raped by Bolting and Purge and all that other shit that's flying around.

Lyn > Eliwood forever. I had originally wanted a tier gap between them, but for now I'll settle for Eliwood just being inferior. Because he is.

[Narga_Rocks]

Double posting so I can bump, because this needs its own post.

These are my intended changes to the tier list. I'll note and provide reasoning for most of the major changes, simply because I figure it bears discussion.

-Jesus On Wheels-

Marcus

-Top-

Sain

Kent

Raven

Priscilla

Lowen

Ninian/Nils

Matthew

-High-

Serra

Florina

Oswin

Hector

Erk

Pent

-Upper Middle-

Harken

Geitz

Hawkeye

Canas

Fiora

Heath

Guy

Isadora

Lucius

Dart

Dorcas

Legault

-Middle-

Farina

Lyn

Eliwood

Bartre

Rath

Vaida

-Lower Middle-

Jaffar

Karel

Athos

Renault

Louise

Rebecca

-Low-

Wallace

Wil

Karla

Nino

Notable changes:

Kent > Lowen- Yes, I know you've all been pushing for this for a while, and I'm caving. Durability becomes less and less of a factor as the game goes on, but Lowen's lack of offensive prowess is quite simply unacceptable in later maps. Against mages, Lowen is more than capable of holding his own, but against physically based enemies, Lowen has issues doubling, or even killing things that he doubles. Meanwhile, Kent will never have doubling issues, have decent strength, and while his durability isn't the greatest it's still functional. He even has a fast-ish support with Sain, who has now assumed his rightful place as godmoder one step removed from Kent.

Cavaliers Up- Again, this is a change that's a long time in the making. Cavs are going way up- Kent will be adjacent to Sain, and Lowen will be below Priscilla. Mounts are ridiculously useful in this game, and while Lowen is definitely no combat superstar, he's still legit in terms of durability and ability to ferry characters around with his mount. He kinda wanes later in the game when his combat starts being especially ineffective and you're swamped with mounts, and he still has to compete for the Knight Crest he needs to promote.

Healers Split- Remember that thing I was saying about mounts being really really good? Well, there's exactly one healer that's going to be able to keep up with those mounts throughout the entire game, and that's Priscilla. On top of that, Priscilla can ferry people and still do her job- since she shouldn't be attacking in the first place, her combat stats basically don't matter. Serra's lack of mount really hurts her here, doubly so when you consider that she's pretty much guaranteed not to get a single level out of Lyn Mode. There's always the off-hand chance that she won't even be close enough to the combat to get B Staves, which she needs to use Physic, and if she never reaches Physic level, then her movement is always going to hamper her, and her increased physic range is irrelevant.

Eliwood WAY down- Seriously, Eliwood is tripe. He's terrible at combat, and he's lucky if he ever reaches promotion. Even if he promotes, his only claim to fame is hauling around Oswin and Hawkeye's fat asses. I'm putting him near the top of Middle, adjacent to and just below Lyn.

Guy down- He's basically Raven who shows up slightly earlier, and gets a crit boost in exchange for no 2-range. He competes with Raven for the sole easily obtainable Hero Crest (stealing from Oleg is a pain in the ass and slows down the chapter A LOT considering how many pegs and wks are ready to rock the shit out of your soft squishy sword-locked thieves). Being sword-locked sucks a lot, and his Strength isn't too hot either. He's basically Lyn that shows up a little earlier, promotes a little sooner, but still has to deal with no 2-range (bows are better than nothing).

Hawkeye Up- Easily better than Dart due to not requiring a promotion item, having AWESOME stats, and being ridiculously durable. He's damn near indestructible, and his waterwalk is indispensable in chapters like Night of Farewells. His high CON and mediocre SPE can hamper him, but a Speedwing basically sets him up to double and destroy everything. Killer Axe gives something silly like a 50% chance to Critical Hit, which spells death for anyone it hits, and so if he doubles, not only is he likely to one-round every enemy outright, but also packs around a 75% chance to ORKO any unit he doubles no matter what.

Isadora Up- Yeah, I said it. Isadora comes as a fairly legit attacking unit with excellent stats and a bitchin' 50% speed growth. A Body Ring and Angelic Robe is all you really need to turn her into a fighter that easily rivals Kent, especially considering Silver Sword access.

Florina Up (and other fliers)- Yeah, this has been a LONG time coming, ever since I argued her out of the pit of despair she was previously in. Basically every single flying unit is jumping up the list. Florina has a great claim to the Lyn Mode boosters, and makes great use of them for both combat and flight, and her flight is incredibly clutch in a number of nasty chapters. She's also going to be the first flier to promote by far given her fast-ish levelling speed and high starting level, and high starting level (7/0 is easily doable by the end of LM). Everyone else is going up too, including notably Vaida, who can take a Speedwing and become awesome.

Archers Down- Yeah, this is a long time coming. Rebecca to Lower Mid, Wil to bottom. This should be fairly obvious.

Renault Up- He functions as an endgame staff user, meaning that you basically don't need to raise any staff users for the endgame. He does have a function, and can serve it fairly well, so that's that.

So yeah... discuss away.

So, you going to put these into the first page? It's just sad seeing Eliwood two tiers up on Lyn. And some of the rest of them. Has anybody really objected to much of this? And Eliwood > Florina is just .... There aren't words to describe it.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Oh yeah, thank you for reminding me.

Updating the first page now.

EDIT: Updated, and also made some changes.

Some lower-tiers moved, nothing important.

THE MAGES HAVE BEEN CRUNCHED- Erk and Lucius were normalized to where Canas previously was, and reordered to Lucius, Canas, Erk. Lucius has the most potential due to his wtfCstaves on promotion, but Canas has the advantage of the best durability and the least number of levels to promotion, as well as the benefit of having a great promotion bonus.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Geriba]

Oh yeah, thank you for reminding me.

Updating the first page now.

EDIT: Updated, and also made some changes.

Some lower-tiers moved, nothing important.

THE MAGES HAVE BEEN CRUNCHED- Erk and Lucius were normalized to where Canas previously was, and reordered to Lucius, Canas, Erk. Lucius has the most potential due to his wtfCstaves on promotion, but Canas has the advantage of the best durability and the least number of levels to promotion, as well as the benefit of having a great promotion bonus.

Quick aside from the Lyn/Eliwood debate: wouldn't Canas need to be penalized for forcing the player to attend 17x and costing him a handful of unneeded turns?

[Florete]

Quick aside from the Lyn/Eliwood debate: wouldn't Canas need to be penalized for forcing the player to attend 17x and costing him a handful of unneeded turns?

I believe all Gaidens except 19xx are assumed (though there was debate over 19xx).

[grandjackal]

That, and if we start the penalizing due to not wanting to go to the chapter, that would open up the "Geitz and KArel being problematic" deal all over again.

[Don Draper]

.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Don Draper

[grandjackal]

I'd certainly see Lowen's combat uses being somewhat limited in use, sure. However, if you think he should drop, how far down would you see him going? Personally, I could see him below Isadora.

[Geriba]

As I promised earlier, an in-depth statistical analysis is pending, but I want to take a moment and step back to look at the big picture. Everyone is jumping on the Lyn bandwagon for one simple reason: she can double. And with the Mani Katti, no less, guaranteeing her at least some damage to almost every enemy. Let me state at the outset that I wouldn't be so bold as to declare Eliwood superior to Lyn at the time she arrives- but that's not what ultimately matters. From chapters 12 to 16- 5 in all- Eliwood has absolutely no competition against Lyn. It's pure positive utility. From chapters 16 to 26- 13 in all- I'll be completely generous and say that Lyn has a noticeable advantage in ALL of these chapters. Clearly, this is utter nonsense. The closer both units approach the end-game, the more and more Eliwood bridges the offensive gap while maintaining his defensive edge. But even granting that, post-promotion Eliwood's getting a horse and a lance, while Lyn's getting... bows. From here on out (which is a total of 9 chapters, not including Battle Preparations and the Armads chapter), Eliwood has a noticeable lead himself.

Specifics matter, of course, and I'll try to shed much more light on the matter later, but looking at the general framework here, that's 5 chapters of a pure lead and 9 of a comparative lead for Eliwood versus 13 of a comparative lead for Lyn. Should be very, very close. Those insisting that Lyn is somehow in a different league than Eliwood are kidding themselves.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Jaffar7

[Life]

I love seeing Jaffar7 around here. Jaffar, we've missed your ass. Dearly.

I'm going to back the Lyn > Eliwood argument. Aside from me liking Lyn a lot more, her earlygame is much better than Eliwood's. And we shouldn't be arguing for 2 pages on how fast or slow a Florina support is because let's face it, unless you're dondon when it comes to placing people (fucking meticulous as hell), the support is never really going to matter unless you purposely make it matter.

I remember when we all used to argue with Inui about stupid shit like OswinxDorcas A but if you look at any of my S Rank runs (go back a bunch of topics and maybe even 2 pages), you'll realize that GBA supports (FE6 excluded) are overrated. They can be used to help a character but should never be actively relied on.