Path of Radiance vs. Radiant Dawn

[Florete]

Chapter 8:

Ike only accepts command because that's what his father wanted him to do. Why else would he say that it would be easier for Shinon and Gatrie to bite the bullet if he died?

Moving on to Chapter 12, he's got this convo with Sothe. I'll highlight the important line.

That's only 4 chapters and you can see that Ike's gaining confidence in himself. That's characterization.

Honestly? That is not a good example. He isn't angsting over Shinon and Gatrie in Ch 8, he's stating the facts with confidence. He knows he's inexperienced, but he already has confidence. He has the same attitude in both of those chapters (except being a bit more annoyed with Sothe).

For the record, Lethe's words are not Zihark's. See:

Zihark

I joined the Toha vigilantes solely for the purpose of saving laguz. I'm not from Crimea, but when I heard she had joined with Gallia, I envisioned my perfect world, one in which the laguz could live normal lives, free of oppression. However, when I came to Crimea, I found things were no different there than in any other beorc nation.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Mikethfc]

Honestly? That is not a good example. He isn't angsting over Shinon and Gatrie in Ch 8, he's stating the facts with confidence. He knows he's inexperienced, but he already has confidence. He has the same attitude in both of those chapters (except being a bit more annoyed with Sothe).

But he certainly does become more confident, I doubt Ike from between chapters 7 & 8 would have the confidence to try and lead that assault up the mountain

[Vicious Sal]

Lovely how people start posting game scripts, spoilers and much more just to prove their point in a topic about someone who knows far less/ nothing of the games.

Srsly...

[spoiler=And to but in @ Balcerzak, spoiler alert, although already spoiled by others]

Lethe calls him crimean because he is in crimea at the time, read your game scripts, he is indeed from daein, he never told someone that "secret" in POR. And I do not think laguz can sniff out ones nationality, literally. And also not figuratively if your first encounter is as enemies.

EDIT: Ninja'd, game script powers are miraculous indeed.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Vicious Sal

[Florete]

Lovely how people start posting game scripts, spoilers and much more just to prove their point in a topic about someone who knows far less/ nothing of the games.

Srsly...

This is a good point, haha. I think we're all so used to people knowing that we didn't think of it. I'll keep this in mind.

[-Cynthia-]

2. If you actually think that Ike has no character development in FE9 and his situation is the only thing that counts towards characterization, go back and reread the story. Let's look at some tidbits, shall we?

When did I say Ike had no character development or that situation is the only thing that counts towards characterization? Strawman alert.

The lines you posted don't really show Ike improving in confidence as a leader anyway, since pushing around urchins doesn't involve leadership. It's not as if Ike is lacking confidence in other areas.

Ike

So, Father, does that mean you finally admit that I'm ready?

Greil

What, to join the company? To take on a job?

Ike

Yeah. I mean, Boyd's already out there on the battlefield. I'm ready. I'm tired of being a trainee.

Boyd

Listen, the difference between you and me is that I'm a professional.

Mist

A professional who just got beat.

Boyd

That was just random chance. Random chance.

Greil

You've got a point, Ike... All right. Tomorrow will be your first day as a full-fledged mercenary.

Ike

Really?

Greil

But! If I think it's too much, you're back to trainee status. You'd better work hard.

Ike

No problem. Watch-- I'll catch up to everyone in no time.

Greil

We'll see. We'd better be heading back to the fort. Everyone's waiting.

Micaiah's character does remain static through most of RD, though the fact that she's willing to make different decisions either indicates a.she's changed or b.she's not the person they originally thought. Sothe's line about "you would have never agreed to a plan like this in the past" right before 3-12 highlights this. Also, Micaiah isn't half heron.

[Anouleth]

Quite frankly, I don't really play Fire Emblem for the story. However, I like the story in FE10 because of Skrimir >:3

But he certainly does become more confident, I doubt Ike from between chapters 7 & 8 would have the confidence to try and lead that assault up the mountain

Ike has the confidence to lead a rag-tag bunch of mercenaries through Crimea in order to save Elincia.

I rather wonder if there are any lines at all that betray a lack of confidence from Ike. He always acts the exact same way. He's confident and charismatic. He's brash and blunt in his speech. When does this change?

Micaiah's character does remain static through most of RD, though the fact that she's willing to make different decisions either indicates a.she's changed or b.she's not the person they originally thought. Sothe's line about "you would have never agreed to a plan like this in the past" right before 3-12 highlights this. Also, Micaiah isn't half heron.

It's interesting to see that side, I think. I mean, that having to lead an army and defend a nation sometimes means having to fight unjust wars or commit horrible actions. It's kind of easy for Ike because he's never really in the same position as Micaiah is. It's always clear what he has to do, and there's rarely any moral ambiguity (maybe a little bit when they're fighting in Daein).

Edited June 2, 2011 by Anouleth

[NinjaMonkey]

while the new characters in RD have little to no personality. It pretty much makes you want to say "Why, I.S.? Why?"

There are 70+ playable characters in the game. If IS gave every one of those a distinct personality and expanded on their backstory, the game would be twice as long as it is already!

Edited June 2, 2011 by NinjaMonkey

[-Cynthia-]

It's interesting to see that side, I think. I mean, that having to lead an army and defend a nation sometimes means having to fight unjust wars or commit horrible actions. It's kind of easy for Ike because he's never really in the same position as Micaiah is. It's always clear what he has to do, and there's rarely any moral ambiguity (maybe a little bit when they're fighting in Daein).

I suppose there is a little when he stops to help the villagers after Talrega, but since this doesn't seem to impede the Crimean advance signficantly it really just makes Ike look better and Soren look unecessarily heartless.

Also there's the situation before Chapter 24 with Geoffrey being in trouble and all which could have been one, but since Ike crew easily crushes the enemy and saves the day with no consequences it just makes Lucia and Bastian look stupid.

@Personalities A few new RD characters have personalities (Skrimir, Nailah, Pelleas, a few others) but are kinda not shown very much for the most part yeah.

Edited June 2, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Mikethfc]

Quite frankly, I don't really play Fire Emblem for the story. However, I like the story in FE10 because of Skrimir >:3

Ike has the confidence to lead a rag-tag bunch of mercenaries through Crimea in order to save Elincia.

I rather wonder if there are any lines at all that betray a lack of confidence from Ike. He always acts the exact same way. He's confident and charismatic. He's brash and blunt in his speech. When does this change?

After a certain chapter when he goes round to people telling them they can leave and they have no obligation to him because he feels he's a weak and inexperienced commander, there could also be that bit in Roadside battle when he has leadership issues.

It's interesting to see that side, I think. I mean, that having to lead an army and defend a nation sometimes means having to fight unjust wars or commit horrible actions. It's kind of easy for Ike because he's never really in the same position as Micaiah is. It's always clear what he has to do, and there's rarely any moral ambiguity (maybe a little bit when they're fighting in Daein).

FE9 always has the pragmatism vs idealism and Ike sides with the latter

[spoiler='Examples]Feeding the civilians in Talrega or shouting at Sanaki

so he does have to make some moral decisions

[Rewjeo]

There are 70+ playable characters in the game. If IS gave every one of those a distinct personality and expanded on their backstory, the game would be twice as long as it is already!

IIRC, FE12 has more characters than RD and that didn't stop all but 4 (?) who happened to join in the very last chapter from having support conversations that are actually conversations. I accepted that excuse before, but IS has shown that they can do it.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Go with PoR. It's story and gameplay work on a level RD's do not; while PoR captures a consistent awareness for growth, detail, and variety, RD too often feels watered-down, filler, or outright boring.

EDIT: Also, hide the story arguments and like in spoiler tags.

Edited June 2, 2011 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[Bryan]

If you can get both, get PoR.

If you're like me, and hate not having all of the S rank weapons, go for RD.

RD's graphics are pretty much amazing.

[NinjaMonkey]

IIRC, FE12 has more characters than RD and that didn't stop all but 4 (?) who happened to join in the very last chapter from having support conversations that are actually conversations. I accepted that excuse before, but IS has shown that they can do it.

That's because the support system in FE12 (characters can only support with certain other characters) is way different to FE10's (anyone can support with anybody else). If FE12 had FE10's support system, I reckon that the supports would be generic as well!

[Florete]

That's because the support system in FE12 (characters can only support with certain other characters) is way different to FE10's (anyone can support with anybody else). If FE12 had FE10's support system, I reckon that the supports would be generic as well!

FE10 could have kept the ability to support anyone but only had the real conversations between specific pairs. The coding for support speeds suggests this might have been the original intention.

[Junkhead]

If IS gave every one of those a distinct personality and expanded on their backstory, the game would be twice as long as it is already!

That's a bad thing?

[NinjaMonkey]

Well, I'd say so...

[Junkhead]

But it's a game, so that means you're supposed to enjoy it. And the supports aren't necessary, anyway, just optional. If RD had non-generic supports it wouldn't obviously be the whole "everyone with everyone" system.

[El Rey León]

Sothe isn't really a derailment. I'd call it more of an unprecedented expansion. We didn't know much about him in PoR, and in RD we get dropped right into his story, so obviously we're going to suddenly get a lot about him we didn't know. It's also three years later, and given how old he was in PoR, that is quite an important three years for him.

Astrid...kind of. If you read her supports with Makalov in PoR you can see where RD's use of her comes from. For some reason they decided to choose that as the canon. Otherwise, her personality didn't change as far as I could tell.

Jill? As far as I could tell, she just wasn't expanded on any more. That isn't derailment, that's just ignoring.

I'll concede Sothe. He did go from a child/early teen to an adult/late teen so maybe I just confused my dislike for his character as derailment. It happens.

Astrid, I would argue was a complete derailment. She went from a shy noble with little fighting experience to a confident warrior who knew what she wanted in life. In RD, she's nothing but an idiot that idolizes Makalov and defending him for the stupid things he does and getting mad whenever someone (rightly) criticizes him. No trace of that original personality. If they wanted to go with the Astrid/Makalov thing, fine, but they could have done it without destroying her character.

Jill was supposed to have grown out of blindly following her country, especially when it's in the wrong. This is only referenced in her talks with Mist, Lethe, and Haar, but in reality she shouldn't have needed that. Just seeing she was fighting against her friends with questionable reasons should have been enough to tell Micaiah she's had enough. But no, she's back in blind patriotism mode. She wasn't even aware of the Blood Pact so she didn't know why they were fighting. If she was, I could see her siding with Daein, but...

I already got to the story, so now I'll target "more polished" and wonder what the hell you're smoking. RD is way more polished than PoR in terms of being a game. As already mentioned, there's Atk/hit/crit display during animations that is strangely absent from PoR. In PoR you don't even have a WEx bar to see how close any character is to the next weapon level. When you activate a skill in RD, it tells you what it is, whereas in PoR you just get a random flash of light. Same for criticals. Hell, before a battle, RD also tells you skills and supports that are in effect. In PoR, you can't turn off map animations, whereas in RD you can have full animations, map animations, or no animations.

BEXP in PoR is abusable as hell. Forging is not bad but was done better in RD, Coins included. The 7 item inventory of RD is much better than the 4/4 split of PoR considering how rare it is for certain characters to actually make use of one or the other (Laguz don't use the weapon part except for storage, for example).

Laguz entirely were a hell of a lot less polished. Locked to the same MT weapon forever, no Olivi Grass and very limited Laguz Stones/Demi Band, just plain odd gauges, including not being able to transform/revert at will.

Skills are done better, especially being able to re-assign them. Masteries are still not perfect but much better (actually useful and everyone gets them).

"Polished" was probably a bad word choice. I was thinking from a story standpoint still, because it had consistent characterization, believable development, and a more personal feel. I understand RD was going for a more epic feel, but I don't feel they lived up to it. Gameplay-wise, RD is better. But I'd say that and graphics are its only advantages.

[Florete]

[spoiler=Astrid]

Astrid, I would argue was a complete derailment. She went from a shy noble with little fighting experience to a confident warrior who knew what she wanted in life. In RD, she's nothing but an idiot that idolizes Makalov and defending him for the stupid things he does and getting mad whenever someone (rightly) criticizes him. No trace of that original personality. If they wanted to go with the Astrid/Makalov thing, fine, but they could have done it without destroying her character.

Yeah, I'm not going to argue she wasn't derailed. I was pretty annoyed when I saw what they did to her myself. I'm just saying it was slightly easier to accept it when I thought about it a bit more.

Still sucks, though. At least she isn't an important character.

[spoiler=Jill]

Jill was supposed to have grown out of blindly following her country, especially when it's in the wrong. This is only referenced in her talks with Mist, Lethe, and Haar, but in reality she shouldn't have needed that. Just seeing she was fighting against her friends with questionable reasons should have been enough to tell Micaiah she's had enough. But no, she's back in blind patriotism mode. She wasn't even aware of the Blood Pact so she didn't know why they were fighting. If she was, I could see her siding with Daein, but...

I disagree completely. The Mad King's War was the Mad King's War. It was pretty obvious Ashnard was evil. Not so with Micaiah and Pelleas. Jill had just finished helping them liberate their country from Begnion oppression and now they enter a war under those same two people. Even without knowing the reasons in detail, she could reasonably trust that these people knew what they were doing and fight for them and her country. And don't forget this is still with the likes of Sothe, Tauroneo, and Zihark, who also fought in the Mad King's War. Obviously this changes with those conversations, but that just goes to show she hasn't derailed as you seem to believe she has.

"Polished" was probably a bad word choice. I was thinking from a story standpoint still, because it had consistent characterization, believable development, and a more personal feel. I understand RD was going for a more epic feel, but I don't feel they lived up to it. Gameplay-wise, RD is better. But I'd say that and graphics are its only advantages.

I disagree, but, well, that's all I can really say on this point. Aside from characterization (which I don't think is a big deal for a video game), I feel like RD did absolutely everything better than PoR, sometimes in small amounts and other times in huge amounts.

[skdyer]

Thanks everyone for the well formed arguments and your passionate opinions. I decided to go with FE9. And don't worry...I didn't read any of the spoiler stuff!

[Anouleth]

Astrid wasn't derailed. She was NEVER confident in FE9, naivete was the entire extent of her personality. And she's exactly the same in FE10. That's what's weird: in three years living in Crimea, she hasn't changed at all.

Jill was supposed to have grown out of blindly following her country, especially when it's in the wrong. This is only referenced in her talks with Mist, Lethe, and Haar, but in reality she shouldn't have needed that. Just seeing she was fighting against her friends with questionable reasons should have been enough to tell Micaiah she's had enough. But no, she's back in blind patriotism mode. She wasn't even aware of the Blood Pact so she didn't know why they were fighting. If she was, I could see her siding with Daein, but...

But she's not in patriotism mode. The whole of Part 3 she's angsting about having to fight in a war she hates.

Kieran: Dracoknight Jill! Why did you return to the Daein army?!

Jill: I...

Kieran: Last time we fought together, you betrayed your heartless homeland to fight on Crimea's side! You used to know how to tell right from wrong! What happened?

Jill: Sir Kieran...

Kieran: Why do you look so sad? It isn't like you! Come, join us in righteousness!

Jill: I truly envy you. You fight with pride and loyalty in your heart. I wish I could do the same, these days...

[Lews Therin]

Look i bought RD first and i dont damm regret it the story is much better in RD but i do agree if you can buy it later get PoR but it has 3rd tier units dammit.

PoR has your basic storyline rebellion unification of the continent blah blah and so on but its not often that you come across a story as awesome as it.

But if youve played GBA games PoR will ease you in on BEXP new types of mission long chapters (if youve played FE4 dont worry there not that big) but overall RD is better

[Klytus]

Did anyone cover the fact that if you play Path of Radiance first you can carry your gold coins and character relationships over into Radiant Dawn? I started on Radiant Dawn, but quit about seven levels in and picked up Path of Radiance after I found this out. And after I realized I was enjoying it enough to want to play them all, of course.

If you do that, though, don't play Path of Radiance on the easy level. Either by bug or design (I can't remember which) you can't import your PoR stats into RD if you've got an "Easy" saved game.

[Anouleth]

Did anyone cover the fact that if you play Path of Radiance first you can carry your gold coins and character relationships over into Radiant Dawn? I started on Radiant Dawn, but quit about seven levels in and picked up Path of Radiance after I found this out. And after I realized I was enjoying it enough to want to play them all, of course.

If you do that, though, don't play Path of Radiance on the easy level. Either by bug or design (I can't remember which) you can't import your PoR stats into RD if you've got an "Easy" saved game.

Some discs have that bug fixed. I think all EU discs have that bug fixed, for example.

[Loki Laufeyson]

1. That's not Micaiah, it's the situation she's in. Her actual character has little to no development (learning shit like she's half heron is not character development, FYI).

Well she isnt half-heron. But i agree with the statement. Her development lacked. It could have been due to Ike's spotlight stealing squad but they still had time to get her developed. They just didnt. She is pretty much the same except she doesnt live in the shadows anymore.

I dont see Jill as derailed at all. Shes the same Jill but more mature. She didnt hate Daein. She hated the ideals of it. Or at least did in PoR. She came to realize how silly that ideal was. In RD, she goes on about how she doesnt like the idea of fighting the war in Part 3. Haar (or Mist) can convince her to join Ike's team in Part 3.

I do not like what they did to Astrid but oh well. D:

As for the games themselves, RD would have been near perfect if it werent for the supports. I loved the PoR support system so much. Since both games have my favorite characters in FE, (aside from Florina) I really love them both. PoR a little more though.