Easiest FE

[Integrity]

It's my opinion so whats with the attitude? :/

No. We're having a discussion based off of facts, not opinions. Stats are not opinions. I'm not going to have you pulling out of this debacle by saying "these numbers from the game are just my opinion" - overpowered can fairly readily be proven or disproven in most instances.

Anyway, let's continue to embroil myself in this, piece-by-piece:

First of all I was comparing FE9 Nasir, FE10 is a whole other story so if you could have figured it out sooner you would have saved some unnecessary paragraphs.

Depends on how you play. 21 AS is higher than GBA Manaketes who have no more than 20 speed. Nasir doesn't need to double to help beat enemies, in fact it helps your other units grow. FE9+10 no need to worry about uses and power(FE10).

This very explicitly mentioned FE10 Nasir. Moving along.

Nasir's SPD cap in FE9 (I'll completely ignore FE10) is 32. Myrrh's SPD cap is 20. Congratulations, you're right, Nasir is faster than Myrrh.

Except that this is precisely - to the LETTER - the crux of my argument about FE10.

So what do 23 and 17 AS (using averages) actually MEAN? They're worthless numbers until they're put up against enemy speeds, right? We can agree on that?

RIEV: SPD 19

MORVA: SPD 13

LYON: SPD 15

MORTY: SPD 18

Last four bosses of FE8 on Normal Mode because I also can't be arsed to go find HM stats. FE9?

IGNORING THE BLACK KNIGHT

HAFEDD: SPD 20 (Nasir isn't here for this guy)

HEDDWYN: SPD 19

BRYCE: SPD 18

ASHNARD: SPD 27

The SLOWEST of these (Bryce) is 1 SPD slower than the fastest boss in FE8 I charted. Notice the disparity especially between Ashnard and everything in FE8 ever? The other three seem low, but we're not talking about Swordmasters here - they're a Halberdier, a Sage and a General. On Normal Mode.

I think I've made my point about enemy stats being different between games, so I'll just move along sine there's more typing to do.

Attack of 38? Ephraim? You mean 49 (27+5=32+17=49)

Actually, I do mean 49. That was the product of two consecutive fuckups - not noticing the +5 STR and mixing the WT and MT columns. Since you seem to have decided to turn your back on FE10 and pretend this was always about 8 versus 9, that invalidates that portion of my argument totally. Ceded.

Bantu can be a good tank without killing anybody so that your units can kill in the chapter he joins and a few after.

This is not the definition of an "overpowered" unit, in case you were confused. I just thought I'd make that *abundantly* clear.

FE9 Nasir again can help hurt the enemy as well as draw them to him and let whoever isn't level 20 take the kill. FE9 hard mode is not easy to get to 20,

This is straight fucking bullshit. Getting any given unit from Greil Merc Brand Beginning to 20/20 is almost trivial unless you're fucking around with units you'll only use for a chapter or two. Your whole (what, like 16-man?) team isn't going to be 20/20, granted. You can have that point. You're also relegating this "overpowered" unit to LURING AND CHIPPING. See the Bantu statement above.

infinite uses also applied to the game, other than Ragnell, weapons can still break an the uses was a contrast to the other dragons in FE's world.

I don't know what this means. The best guess I have is that you mean Nasir is unique for having infinite attacks both from an FE9 standpoint and from a dragons standpoint?

Myrrh and kin also don't have to fuck with Gauge unlike Nasir. :?

FE10, Garet can do great damage to the spirits the chapter after, and Nasir can handle them as well thanks to his resistance.

Actually, having used him on Normal Mode, you're totally right! Gareth can do some spectacular damage to the Spirits and Auras. He also faces hit rates STRADDLING FORTY PERCENT. He also gets doubled by everything under the sun and that everything hurts like a motherfucker. And that's on a good day. Nasir fares a fair way better than Gareth in this since he can actually hit and tank. ALSO! See the Bantu statement. You're using these units for CHIPPING, sir.

Ena and Kurth are great since they join early and can help each other with tide and boon for other characters. Kurth also gets formshift! Throwing a defense/seraph to Tiki won't hurt any of your other characters while making her even stronger.

"Early" = "4-E-1" now? The patented Fuck? Tormod - fucking TORMOD - gets a LOT of flak for his availability because he's only around for a half-dozen chapters before 4-E, and you're saying KURTHNAGA - with FIVE chapters to his name (stretching it; he's not contributing in most of them) and THREE of those without that ever-touted Formshift "join(s) early"? Even once he gets that Formshift, he's as good as ...a shitty Beorc with 1-2 Range and Tide. Kurth's Tide even contributes the sunny side of rabbit turds to anybody compared to the other three.

To address the left-field comment about Tiki: first, we were lamenting her offense, not her defense. Second, +2 DEF/+7 HP isn't necessarily going to pull her out of her hole. Third, how is taking those from other units, by definition, not hurting them? And FOURTH: see the fucking BANTU STATEMENT!

tl;dr: You, sir, aren't trying to argue that the Dragons are useful. You're trying to argue that they're overpowered and you seem to have forgotten that small detail.

EDIT: Elmer, she's sure as fuck limited to the Divine Dragonstone if you want that delicious +15 DEF. The other Stones have significantly lower +DEF bonuses.

EDIT2: Sevs, Ashera doubles the ever-loving shit out of Gareth. I'm not sure off the top of my head if she can 1RKO him on a Wardwood, but she definitely can at base off Wardwood.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Integrity

[MasterJP28]

Kurth has the dragon chapter. Tormod cant attack dragons that dont fight back, or have the cap to use Blossom and Paragon together at the same time. Chipping is very useful, but yes even though they aren't invincible, I still think the dragons are strong, not completely broken. So you won your argument. Happy? Now let's go back to easiest FE!

Dragons being overpowered is still what I believe!!!

Edited July 5, 2011 by JosefLior

[Just call me AL]

Kurth has the dragon chapter.

It doesn't matter if those dragons won't attack their prince. Kurthnaga's still bad. What are you? A guy that likes to turtle through everything?

[Integrity]

No, I'm not happy. You've provided me absolutely no evidence that dragons are overpowered in any FE.

Blossom and Paragon are nice together if they produce a good unit. It's subjective again - if Wendy could have Paragon and level twice as fast, would we give twice as many fucks? No, we wouldn't.

Chipping is really very useful, but you have to see what they're matched up against. Kurthnaga can 3RKO one dragon at a time. Laura can fight and kill EVERY SINGLE DRAGON ON THE MAP IN ONE ENEMY PHASE if they could all attack her. Who's better? Not getting attacked (when you can retaliate) is generally held to be a negative, or a neutral at best. Also, chipping is useful - useful is not, by definition, overpowered.

Christ.

EDIT: Just a lulzy thought that occurred to me. You know you, Josef, just said in almost as many words "I don't care that you're winning this argument I want you to back out so I can still think I'm right"? Do you know what sort of demand that puts on my pride as a man?

Edited July 5, 2011 by Integrity

[MasterJP28]

Pride??? Lmao this is FftF all I wanted was a happy bullshit discussion but in the end I had endure this argument. You know what every dragon is overpowered! Xane, Gotoh, Ninian, Nils, if I forgot some people oh well.

Idc either way. Happy Independence Day if you live in the US. Your a trip Integrity. :P

[Integrity]

Oh look, another person who seems to think logic has no bearing in FFtF.

Fuck off and grow up sometime, kid.

[MasterJP28]

I never said there was no logic in FFtF. All I wanted was a nice conversation. Then we got into this argument which I clearly stated you were right, but I still hold my own opinion. Expressing your thoughts and opinions is what forums are for, right?

[Integrity]

It's utterly nonsensical to have an opinion that can't be backed up by facts but can be refuted by facts. I either want you to say "dragons are not overpowered" or give me a God-damn reason why they are. None of this "okay fine you're right BUT I STILL THINK DRAGONS ARE IMBA!!!" horseshit you've been pulling.

[MasterJP28]

Opinions are ideas, feelings, beliefs, they contrast from facts since there aren't always facts to back them up. The only fact I can give you is that everytime I play an FE with a playable dragon, they always seem to dominate.

[Integrity]

You haven't even given me anecdotal evidence on why those dragons "dominate" unless you're using a really messed-up version of the word that means "to perform adequately". I don't discount that possibility.

[MasterJP28]

Well statistically, I never use any stat boosting items until the very end, and I get RNG screwed many times because I don't bother with it. So dragons are my hard hitters. Fa and Myrrh handle a good portion of the enemy themselves in the chapter they join and keep getting stronger. Nasir can take on the Feral Ones in FE9 without me having to worry about him dying unless he's hit by the Bolting. FE10 you know what I do with Kurth and Ena, but I also have them take on some enemies in the other endgame chapters using their support and Tide. Gareth does get some BEXP before I send him out and also gets help from Tide. FE11 Bantu, well ok he's adequate, Tiki never gave me problems after using a Seraph robe and Defense ring, the only time I would waiste stat boosters. I haven't played FE12 since I hate not being able to read the story, even though I know whats happening already. FE3 Tiki was great when transformed, Bantu was the same to me as he was in FE11. Never bothered FE1, FE3 includes books 1 and 2.

[samthedigital]

FE9 Easy mode is the least challenging thing in Fire Emblem as far as I am aware. It is possible to have Titania kill 90% of the enemies while rushing through every chapter and still get a second unit that is comparable to Titania by chapter 9, and then it can be done four or five more times before Ike even promotes.

[Integrity]

See, now you've given me anecdotal evidence.

Evidence of what, though?

Fa: Can't comment, never bothered.

Myrrh: Certainly cannot handle "a good portion of the enemy" herself at base. She'll level fast, granted, but at that point Myrrh can take half the map on while Franz can ...take the whole map on. Or Gerik. Or Ross. Or Cormag. Or Artur. Or Seth.

Nasir can tank the Feral Ones, awesome. According to Vykan's delicious post, Cats have ~26 ATK, Tigers have ~31 ATK, and Ravens have ~22 ATK. The Dragons have a much more appreciable ~45 ATK. Taking a random sampling of units, they:

Zihark: Cats 5RKO, Tigers 3RKO, Ravens 9RKO, and the Dragons 2RKO.

Boyd: Cats 6-7RKO, Tigers 4RKO, Ravens 10RKO, and the Dragons 2-3RKO.

Oscar: Cats 12RKO, Tigers 6RKO, Ravens tink (:D), and the Dragons still 2RKO.

Nasir: Cats cannot logically ever kill him, Tigers 8RKO, Ravens can literally never kill him, and the Dragons? 3RKO.

As we can see here, Nasir fares a whole lot better than the beorc in defensive parameters. Well, not necessarily a whole lot better. He mostly gets immunity from the Cat and Raven trash. So what's the conclusion? I can concede (happily, considering I like the guy) that Nasir is a really good unit. He also shows up for two chapters (is fe10's black knight overpowered in the grand scheme of things?), is limited by gauge (unless you give him the Demi Band, which changes those numbers), and has a massive hoop (fucking. black. knight.) to jump through to get him instead of his little granddaughter Ena. On the flipside of that, she's nearly as good defensively so whatever.

EDIT: Incidentally, my numbers are all fucked up if Breath targets RES. I *think* it targets DEF but I want it put out there that that's what I used.

Kurth and Ena in FE10, again, you're having them "team up" to "take on some enemies". Call a Brigadier you want, and by the time you get them into the tower they can take more than Kurth and Ena can together. Alone. This is not overpowered.

We see eye-to-eye on Bantu but Tiki, again, is being fed stat boosters to "not give you problems."

This. Is. Not. Overpowered.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Integrity

[MasterJP28]

What I meant in my previous post is that from my past experiences, the dragons were always stronger than my other units. I have played FE8 only twice, once for each route. FE9 always used Nasir. FE10 I used all the Dragons I got. So from my point of view, dragons are really strong.

[Integrity]

And now, see, you've changed your tune. You didn't start out saying that the dragons were "really strong", and I can't disagree with that blanket statement. Mostly. The dragons in FE10 are still simply, objectively balls-up (save for Tides), but.

[MasterJP28]

lol I knew you catch that "really strong." So did we reach a middle ground? Dragons aren't overpowered and they're not just adequate, except Bantu.

[Integrity]

Except Bantu and the FE10 Dragons. Don't make me do another stats analysis.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Integrity

[Junkhead]

Yeah Dragons hit Def in FE9.