FE4 efficiency tier lists

[Anouleth]

I don't think that Beowulf over Alec is compelling at all. Beowulf has only a 3 strength lead assuming they're at the same level and even that disappears after promotion (at which point Alec has access to B Lances in addition to A Swords). Alec is also winning availability.

[Psych]

Why does Alec get A swords at promo? He only gets B lances.

[_____]

Aaaaaand here are the posts concerning Beowulf v. Alec from Allan Aokage on FEG:

-before we begin, my apologies if I commit any debating faux pas during this post-

Alec is an opening character in the Prologue and can kill a Bandit immediately, splitting the EXP between Noish and himself. He starts with an Iron Sword, so he isn't really doing anything awe-inspiring. He and Noish are probably going to be picking off any single-digit-HP Bandits left after Sigurd's enemy phase, assuming they don't charge West to try and beat up the Bandits taking off the Villages. They can do it, but still. Either way, Alec will be around... level 5?

In the Ch1 Arena, Alec could get Sigurd's Steel Sword. Sigurd really doesn't need it, since he'll kick just as much ass with an Iron Sword, even if his Silver Sword somehow breaks; he can always run into Gandolf's castle to repair it for the final stretch. With either sword, Lv 5 Alec can kill Gazack (Lv 1 Axefighter) and Crotor (level 4 Mage) and if given the Iron Lance from the Vendor, Weissman (Level 7 Lance Knight). Not so sure about Shark, though. Nevermind. The entirety of Ch1 involves killing Axe/Bow dudes, so he's going to go up a few levels. I'd say Level eight/nine.

There's around a third of Chapter 2 to get through before Beowulf shows up. Alec goes through the Arena, killing Zero (Level 5 Axefighter) and Mahatma (Level 8 Mage). Rowin's a maybe with the Iron Lance again, with the Swordfighter being a another "probably not". Then you go through Elliot's troops and conquer... that castle I can't remember. Alec's definitely at Level 9, maybe level 10. After that, everyone rides up and you spend 10000G to recruit Beowulf and his Steel Sword. A comparison at that point is, with Level 9 Noish as reference;

Base Beowulf: HP38/Str14.0/Mag0.0/Skl11.0/Spd11.0/Def10.0/Res0.0/Luk3.0

9 Noish: HP37.8/Str13.4/Mag0.3/Skl8.8/Spd9.2/Def10.4/Res0.3/Luk5.2

10 Alec: HP37.6/Str11.4/Mag0.4/Skl12.2/Spd12.4/Def9.4/Res0.4/Luk6.4

So, the three of them tie HP. Beowulf wins Strength. Loses Mag with a lol0% growth. He loses Skill to Alec, but beats Noish (and he's the only one who'd really like it). Alec wins Speed by one point, but Beo beats Noish again. Beowulf ties with Noish and beats Alec in defence, then loses Luck.

In the remainder of Ch2, Beowulf gets a few levels from the Knight brigades and going through the Arena (he's gonna be walking past at least two castles anyway and he can get a Javelin or something for Wiseman), so I'd presume two/three levels for Beo and two for Alec.

Growths-wise, they're pretty much identical. +10%HP/+5%Mag/-10%Luk isn't that different. Looking at promo gains, they're pretty similar. Assuming that either of them get to promotion;

20 Beowulf: HP46.8/Str19.4/Mag0.0/Skl24.4/Spd20.3/Def15.3/Res3.5/Luk5.2

20 Alec: HP44.6/Str16.4/Mag5.9/Skl19.2/Spd18.4/Def15.4/Res5.9/Luk9.4

Oh my. Beowulf beats Alec in HP, Str, Skl and Spd. Alec beats Beowulf in Mag (he's hardly going to be using a magic sword, since there's quite a few people who's rather have them as I recall), Res (only really relevant in Silesia) and Luck.

Enough of the stat comparisons; Beo's going to contribute more to the team after recruitment, but Alec gets a lead in regards to availability. Assuming that all of my levels were "reasonable" (pretty sure that's doubtful), they'll be pretty damn similar. If Alec's level is any lower, Beowulf starts good right from the start. I believe it depends on if you weigh Beowulf's superior durability (and unlike Noish, a lack of dependence on the Pursuit Ring) and stats over Alec's availability. They both have mounts, both have Pursuit, Beowulf has a superior skill (arguably) and similar levels when they meet up. They'd both like to use the Elite Ring to speed up their levelling, since otherwise they aren't reaching promotion until the end of Chapter 5, or something ridiculous like that.

I thank you for taking the time to read this. My apologies if it's simply a waste of your time.

First off, Beo's gets Charge. If that activates, he's obviously doing more damage then Alec is. In Ch2, base Beo's Charge activation (w/ Steel Sword) is 11-x+38/2 = y% with x being enemy AS. Going down the list...

All below calculations assume Steel Sword for Beowulf/Steel Sword for Alec. Base Beo/10 Alec is used. 21 atk for Alec/24 Atk for Beowulf.

In Amphony

- Swordarmour L14, 54/13/1/9/7/0/14/1, Iron Sword, 4 (4)

19 Attack, so Alec is 4HKO'd/8HKO's, but doubles. Beowulf is 5HKO'd/6HKO's and doubles, with a 26% Charge.

- Axearmour L14, 54/13/1/9/7/0/14/1. Iron Axe, -11 (3)

Forgot what the Weapon triangle bonus is, so. 27 Attack. Alec is 3HKO'd/8HKO's and doubles. Beowulf is 3HKO'd/6HKO's, with a 41% Charge activate... I think (would a negative AS boost Charge's activation? If not, it's 30%)

- BowArmour L14, 54/13/1/9/7/0/14/1, Iron Bow, -1 (3)

lolbows. 23 Attack. Alec is 3HKO'd/8HKO's and doubles. Beowulf is 3HKO'd (if he gains +2 in HP/+2 in Def/+1 in both, he's 4HKO'd)/6HKO's and 31% (or 30%).

- The Scottish Play L22, 62/16/2/12/11/0/18(+5)/5, Steel Lance, Javelin, Shield Ring, -1 (-7 at range)

Assuming we hit from 1-range. Don't know WTD stuff, sorry. 32 Attack. Alec is 2HKO'd/tinks and doubles. Beowulf is 2HKO'd/62HKO's (pffffft), doubles with a 31% (or 30%) Charge chance.

- Freeknight L7, 37/9/0/8/8/0/8/0, Iron Sword, 5 (11)

Beowulf's gang~ 15 Attack. Alec is 7HKO'd/4HKO's (+1 in Str to 3HKO) and barely doubles. Beowulf is 8HKO'd/3HKO's and doubles with a 25% Charge activation.

- Beowulf L9, 38/14/0/11/11/3/10/0, Steel Sword, 8

24 Attack. Alec is 3HKO'd/4HKO's. Beowulf elopes with this dude.

- 1000 VOLTZ L20, 60/14/2/21/18/0/14/5, Steel Blade, Elite Ring, 12

30 Attack. Alec is 2HKO'd/9HKO's. Beowulf is 2HKO'd (but is 3HKO'd with +2 in HP or Def, or a +1 in both)/6HKO's. Doesn't Voltz have Charge or something? Forgot n.n

In McKeily

- Swordfighter L12, 42/10/1/13/13/0/8/1, Steel Sword, 10 (5)

20 attack. Alec is 4HKO'd/4HKO's. Beowulf is 4HKO'd/3HKO's with a 20% Charge activation rate.

- Bowfighter L10, 40/10/1/13/13/0/8/1, Iron Bow, 5 (2)

20 Attack. Alec is 4HKO'd/4HKO's (but it's a 3HKO with +1 Atk) and doubles. Beowulf is 4HKO'd (+2HP and +1Def/+1HP and +2HP/+3 to either is a 5HKO)/3HKO's (+2 Atk 2HKO's) with a 25% chance of Charge activation.

- Firemage L8, 34/0/12/8/8/0/1/7, , -4 (3)

20 Attack. Alec is 2HKO'd/2HKO's, doubles. Beowulf is 2HKO'd/2HKO's, doubles with a 34% (or 30%) Charge activation.

- Bishop L18, 53/1/15/13/10/0/4/13, Thunder, Sleep, 3

Doesn't matter, he sleeps them both. 23 Attack. Alec is 2HKO'd/4HKO's and doubles. Beowulf is 2HKO'd/3HKO's, doubles with a 27% Charge activation.

I know there's more enemies left in the chapter, but here's most of Chapter 2. Beo can solo The Scottish Play. Beowulf beats Alec durability-wise against the Sword Armours and Free Knights and beats him attack-wise with the Sword Armours, Axe Armours, Bow Armours, Free Knights, Voltz (who probably kills him in the counter attack), the Swordfights, the Bowfighters and Clement. Not sure what their average levels would be come Chapter 3.

-edit-

In Augusty

Charge towards you after you conquer Anphony.

- Lanceknight L12, 42/10/1/9/9/0/9/1, Iron Lance, -3 (4)

22 Attack. Alec is 3HKO'd/4HKO's and doubles. Beowulf is 4HKO'd/3HKO's, doubles and Charges with a 33% (or 30%) Charge activation.

- Captain DukeKnight L15, 55/16/1/11/11/0/12/4, Steel Lance, Javelin, -1 (-7 with Javelin)

32 Attack, assuming we're hitting him on the Player phase. Alec is 2HKO'd/7HKO's (6HKO's with +1 Str) and doubles. Beowulf is 2HKO'd/5HKO's, doubles with a 31% (or 30%) Charge activation.

- Cavalier L12, 42/10/1/9/9/0/9/1, Iron Sword, 6 (4)

16 Attack. Alec is 6HKO'd/4HKO's and doubles. Beowulf is 6HKO'd (needs a +1 to HP/Def to make it 7HKO'd)/4HKO's (needs a +1 to Str to 3HKO), needs a +1 to Spd to double with a 24% Charge activation.

- Captain Paladin L14, 54/13/6/13/13/0/13/6, Steel Sword, 10

23 Attack. Alec is 3HKO'd/7HKO's. Beowulf is 3HKO'd (needs a +1 to Def or a +2 to HP for a 4HKO'd)/5HKO's with a 20% chance to Charge.

Will finish later, gotta run.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Ninji

[Anouleth]

Why does Alec get A swords at promo? He only gets B lances.

You're right, I assumed it was A. I was also mixed up with the Paladin promotion gains.

[Salad Utensil]

Alec should be in Upper Mid under Fin.

Look at the facts. Alec, despite having less than stellar Str and weapon levels, has Pursuit, a horse and nuts availability. He's got B Swords which is good for the Hero Sword, Armour Cutter, Wing Clipper, Thunder Sword... he's going to get at least one of these. Maybe not the Hero Sword (works a lot better on Noish) but let's take the Armour Cutter. Assuming that Alec is level 15 going into Chapter 3, he's got 38 effective Att on Armours. That's what, a perfect ORKO on the Armours? C'mon, that's not Low Mid performance.

Like, he's not bad. He's just not amazing. But his horse has to count for something.

Oh and Noish > Beowulf in my opinion but it's harder for me to prove.

Beowulf/Noish can use all of those as well. He even has charge to deal more damage as well. The last 3 weapons only have situation-al use anyway.

I don't think that Beowulf over Alec is compelling at all. Beowulf has only a 3 strength lead assuming they're at the same level and even that disappears after promotion (at which point Alec has access to B Lances in addition to A Swords). Alec is also winning availability.

No, Beowulf gets A swords, but Alec only has B swords/lances upon promotion.

Edit:ninja'ed

Edited July 21, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Paperblade]

I thought we agreed Alec and Noish weren't that bad in the lategame. I mean, by that point, they're just being incredibly average, not Ardan-level bad.

Average implies that half the cast is worse than them

18 non-Alec/Noish characters...

Dew, Tiltyu, Ardan, Azel if he's not promoted

and then non-combat units like the healers and Sylvia

Also like every sword user can use effective weapons, and there's a lot of sword users

Edited July 21, 2011 by Paperkitty

[Salad Utensil]

Does anyone else think Adean could rise higher? I think the warp staff in chapter 2 and 3 saves a few turns at least that can't tangibly be made up elsewhere (although she shares this characteristic with Diadora in chapter 2)

Edited July 21, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Darros]

Does anyone else think Adean could rise higher? I think the warp staff in chapter 2 and 3 saves a few turns at least that can't tangibly be made up elsewhere (although she shares this characteristic with Diadora in chapter 2)

I kind of do, and it's not bias. The warp staff on her is free, and Diadora has to buy it with the money she doesn't have. She can save a ton of turns in chapter 2 and a few in chapter 3.

[Dark Sage]

Lots of stuff about Holyn and Aira I see. I honestly want both of them to drop along with Jamka. I think all three should be in the same tier and relatively close together though.

Aira joins 1/3 of the way through Chapter 1 and Jamka at the tail end, so Aira does have a noticeable availability lead on Holyn, but Jamka doesn't. All of them aren't lacking in offense, though Aira has the noticeable best thanks to Astra, though Astra is overkill. Jamka does have a durability lead though and is nearly matches Aira's Astra level offense thanks to Pursuit+Continue+Charge, so he's ridiculous with just a Steel Bow, let alone a Killer Bow. He also has a durability lead on Aira, with 36 HP/9 defense at base and 90% HP growth/30% defense growth while Aira has 70% HP growth/20% defense growth. He also doesn't take counters like Aira does. Holyn has a level lead though, starting at level 12 and has 40 HP/11 defense and has 110% HP growth/30% hp growth, so not only is he the closest to promotion, but he's also kicking Aira's ass in durability throughout both their careers and he has an enemy phase unlike Jamka.

So all of them have incredibly good offense, but they're all on foot, so that hinders their usefulness. You need to remember that unlike other FEs, being an archer doesn't automatically suck.

High and Upper Mid tiers in general are just messy, so I'm considering dropping Holyn, Aira, and Jamka to Upper Mid for now while Ethlin goes below Levin (mounted healer is just too good, despite the limited availability. Fin and Fury can switch places, Lachesis can go down to the bottom of Upper Mid, and Cuan can be above all three of them.

@Spykor: Radney and Roddlevan are mostly interchangeable, but Roddlevan has Ambush while Radney doesn't have any skills but Pursuit. I think they could both rise though. Forrest isn't a bad promotion class and they do have auto Pursuit and some decent growths. Also Asaello I think could go up to Lower Mid.

As for why certain pairings aren't on the list, BBlader said that a paring that only benefits one child should not be accounted for on the list unless the benefits given to one child really offsets the penalties to the other child and while I disagree with BBlader on various stuff, I can see where he's coming from. This is why for example I am not putting Alec!Fee on the list since it doesn't really change Fee's perfomance that much (archers are uncommon in Gen 2) and we get a bad Sety. Likewise, I'm not putting Jamka!Lester or Claude!Lana on the list because they both screw other Lester and we don't get much of a benefit from it (Rescue staff isn't that great on Lana because of her awful movement for example). I'm going to take Jamka!Patty of the list too since neither kid gets that much out of Jamka being their father.

As for Aideen going up, I also support this, though 5 move is kind of a bitch to work around.

EDIT: Ok, changes made. Removed Jamka!Patty, dropped Holyn, Aira, and Jamka in Upper Mid below Cuan and Fin. Not sure what to do with Briggd though. Moved Ethlin to below Levin. Lachesis is now on the bottom of Upper Mid, with Aideen above her. Hopefully I made the right decisions.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Sagekitty

[Salad Utensil]

*cough* Levn!Corple *cough* unless someone wants to prove why Holsety (admittedly in bad hands) is worse than the Valkyrie staff

I think your choices are ok, except I still don't understand Beowulf<Alec...

Edited July 21, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Darros]

Levin!Corple has to go through 19 levels, gaining barely any EXP due to not inheriting Reserve, has movement issues, only inheriting critical from Levin, and is hard to recruit.

And Leen gets nothing from it.

I still think Midir is way too high, his stats are not good.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Spykitty

[Salad Utensil]

Levin!Corple has to go through 19 levels, gaining barely any EXP due to not inheriting Reserve, has movement issues, only inheriting critical from Levin, and is hard to recruit.

Critical>no Critical, Reserve can be bought (Levn is more likely to have more money than Claude for things that few people care about like return rings or live staves that can easily be resold), all Corples suffer from bad move and underleveled-ness, but since Corple has Dew and Claude forms he should also have a Levn form.

What could you possibly want Leen to get out of any father since she already has prayer and any ring inheritance from Sylvia?

Edited July 21, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Dark Sage]

Midir has a horse and availability to his name plus Pursuit + Charge. He makes excellent use Jamka's Killer Bow. Having a horse in this game is a really big deal, so I think he should still stay in High tier, despite being an archer.

[Salad Utensil]

Midir has a horse and availability to his name plus Pursuit + Charge. He makes excellent use Jamka's Killer Bow. Having a horse in this game is a really big deal, so I think he should still stay in High tier, despite being an archer.

Is he really a tier above Ayra, Holyn, and Jamka and two tiers better than Beowulf, Noish, and Alec? Briggid has no business being above Jamka either considering she isn't even a very good boss killer.

[Psych]

Holy Weapon > Jamka

Especially if they're both Archers

[Dark Sage]

Briggd not being a good boss killer? Hell you talking about man?

I think I will drop both Midir and Briggd to Upper Mid, though with Midir, not sure where.

[_____]

Is he really a tier above Ayra, Holyn, and Jamka and two tiers better than Beowulf, Noish, and Alec?

No, he isn't. Ayra, Holyn, and Jamka never should have been dropped in the first place; it was a completely rash, unsubstantiated decision that the OP did without letting anyone else respond, so he would be in the same tier as those three.

Holy Weapon > Jamka

Especially if they're both Archers

briggid certainly helps for that essentially one chapter, huh

jamka, man, he doesn't do shit in chapters 1, 2, or 3, and those marginal stat boosts that briggid has over him in chapter 4 change everything

You are a funny guy.

[Salad Utensil]

Briggd not being a good boss killer? Hell you talking about man?

I think I will drop both Midir and Briggd to Upper Mid, though with Midir, not sure where.

Well the only difficult bosses are the barons in chapter 5 which have tons of HP and Def...even with 60ish attack she might not 1RKO them...against the softer bosses Aira, Holyn, Midir, or Jamka could all suffice...

[Darros]

What could you possibly want Leen to get out of any father since she already has prayer and any ring inheritance from Sylvia?

Luna, Sol, Elite.

[Salad Utensil]

Luna, Sol, Elite.

I'm pretty sure Leen isn't so high on the tier list due to her amazing combat abilities...

[Darros]

I'm pretty sure Leen isn't so high on the tier list due to her amazing combat abilities...

Well, maybe not with Dew as a father, but Luna!Leen is hilarious. Elite!Leen lets her level easier. Corple will always suck no matter what so..

[Dark Sage]

No, he isn't. Ayra, Holyn, and Jamka never should have been dropped in the first place; it was a completely rash, unsubstantiated decision that the OP did without letting anyone else respond, so he would be in the same tier as those three.

Wasn't sure if the fact they lacked horses, plus Jamka being an archer and Aira having some durability problems was High tier material, but I'm not sure now. I will be happy to listen to arguments about them going back up.

[Anouleth]

Why is Briggid an entire tier above Lachesis? From what I've heard, Lachesis can reasonably promote at the start of Chapter 4. Not only does Lachesis have mounted move and staves and Charisma, she also has availability. She also has access to good 1 range weapons. Maybe I'm overestimating her level gain, I don't know.

Well, maybe not with Dew as a father, but Luna!Leen is hilarious. Elite!Leen lets her level easier. Corple will always suck no matter what so..

This tier list is not about hilarity, and I didn't think that letting Leen level faster was really a priority since she's a Dancer.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Anouleth

[Salad Utensil]

Why is Briggid an entire tier above Lachesis? From what I've heard, Lachesis can reasonably promote at the start of Chapter 4. Not only does Lachesis have mounted move and staves and Charisma, she also has availability. She also has access to good 1 range weapons. Maybe I'm overestimating her level gain, I don't know.

No I've always had Lachesis promoted by the start of chapter 4 as well since she makes a really good staff spammer in chapter 3, I mean she can get essentially 70exp a turn with the return staff, she has no fund problems if the knights didn't die during chapter 2, and she can abuse the prayer sword easily since she starts with it for arena use...

Edited July 21, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Darros]

If she promotes before DitS she can pick up a bow and O-2HKO peg knights easily.

I'm not saying that the list should have Leen moved at all, I'm saying who Leen's dad is can make a difference to her.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Spykitty