FE4 efficiency tier lists

[Psych]

I know Charisma = God, but I don't think Laylea is equal/better than Leen.

Leen gets Prayer + other things and inherits Rings. Laylea will have a bit harder time getting the cash for Knight and Leg plus Prayer if we want a copy of Leen. I'm not sure Berserk is that useful, especially since we could be getting a Valkyrie user or at least something else.

[_____]

Aira joins 1/3 of the way through Chapter 1 and Jamka at the tail end, so Aira does have a noticeable availability lead on Holyn, but Jamka doesn't.

No, Ayra can do absolutely nothing when she's recruited. She's likely utilizing the Arena when she's recruited, as it's much more efficient to let her gain levels and money there than trying to have her actually do anything useful towards completing the chapter.

All of them aren't lacking in offense, though Aira has the noticeable best thanks to Astra, though Astra is overkill. Jamka does have a durability lead though and is nearly matches Aira's Astra level offense thanks to Pursuit+Continue+Charge, so he's ridiculous with just a Steel Bow, let alone a Killer Bow. He also has a durability lead on Aira, with 36 HP/9 defense at base and 90% HP growth/30% defense growth while Aira has 70% HP growth/20% defense growth. He also doesn't take counters like Aira does.

>ignore enemy phase

>ignore evade

OK, bro.

Jamka's offensive capabilities are just as good as Holyn and Ayra's, yes. They will almost certainly murder everything they fight, so comparing who is more overkill in this case is almost pointless. Jamka's durability lead is less significant in this scenario because, as you said, counters are much less likely for him.

Holyn has a level lead though, starting at level 12 and has 40 HP/11 defense and has 110% HP growth/30% hp growth, so not only is he the closest to promotion, but he's also kicking Aira's ass in durability throughout both their careers and he has an enemy phase unlike Jamka.

Yes, Holyn's durability is generally more important and reliable than Ayra's evade lead, which is why he is higher on the tier list.

So all of them have incredibly good offense, but they're all on foot, so that hinders their usefulness. You need to remember that unlike other FEs, being an archer doesn't automatically suck.

Move is very important in this, yes, and having a mount is a boon. However, when we have a dancer like Sylvia running around with the Knight Ring and the Leg Ring running around, it becomes less of an issue.

High and Upper Mid tiers in general are just messy, so I'm considering dropping Holyn, Aira, and Jamka to Upper Mid for now while Ethlin goes below Levin (mounted healer is just too good, despite the limited availability. Fin and Fury can switch places, Lachesis can go down to the bottom of Upper Mid, and Cuan can be above all three of them.

Ethlin's very low Staff level and limited availability severely hurt her actual usefulness, based on what I know and have heard. Of the non-healing staves, she can only use the Return staff, which is of dubious usefulness. Her contributions are limited. Fin and Fury switching was not spoken about at all, neither was Lachesis' change, so until you make an argument, these should be changed back.

Why is Briggid an entire tier above Lachesis? From what I've heard, Lachesis can reasonably promote at the start of Chapter 4. Not only does Lachesis have mounted move and staves and Charisma, she also has availability. She also has access to good 1 range weapons. Maybe I'm overestimating her level gain, I don't know.

As much as I disagree, I believe that the consensus was that Lachesis could promote at around that time, yeah. I remember someone talking about her promoting by the end of 3, though, so...

[Salad Utensil]

I'm not saying that the list should have Leen moved at all, I'm saying who Leen's dad is can make a difference to her.

Well Dew might help her get the leg ring since Celice probably inherited it(and knight's ring I guess if Celice stole that as well) and Laylea's Charisma is mostly superfluous. I do think that Leen's dad can make a difference too, maybe help her get necessary rings to avoid sleep staves endgame through arena?.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Anouleth]

I don't think that Levin being a "bad" father for Leen (insofar as a father can be bad for Leen) has anything to do with it. Midir isn't really a "good" father for Rana and Levin isn't really a "good" father for Tinny, yet there they are on the tier list. Which brings up an interesting question: should Claude!Rana be on the tier list?

[Darros]

What could you possibly want Leen to get out of any father since she already has prayer and any ring inheritance from Sylvia?

Well Dew might help her get the leg ring since Celice probably inherited it and Laylea's Charisma is mostly superfluous. I do think that Leen's dad can make a difference too, maybe help her get necessary rings to avoid sleep staves endgame through arena?.

Well now I'm confused, you made two conflicting statements. Holyn!Leen has B swords. Dew!Leen can buy Leg Ring for 10000 Gold and Knight for 20000.

[Psych]

Claude!Rana gives Rescue and Fortify in Chapter 6.

I've promoted her and the end of Chapter 7 going slow, and blowing her cash and all her staves promoted her in the begining of 7.

It's insane. Her Rescue can certainly help with Yied, plus some of the other foot units like Arthur!Holsety can get somewhat further. Also with grabbing the castle Leen's at. I'd say she should be included.

Not only that but Leaf won't have to wait till chapter 10 for lulz if we have her pass it down.

[Salad Utensil]

Well now I'm confused, you made two conflicting statements. Holyn!Leen has B swords. Dew!Leen can buy Leg Ring for 10000 Gold and Knight for 20000.

Sorry I was just speculating that Dew!Leen might be slightly better than other Leens, but it's not like Levn!Leen is significantly different.

[Dark Sage]

@Ninji: Your arguments sound convincing. I'll put Holyn, Aira, and Jamka back in High, above Midir and Briggd.

Now that I think about it, I think I did get Lachesis to promotion by Chapter 4, so top of Upper Mid she goes. You do have a point about Ethlin and her staff rank, though I can see some usefulness with it such as transporting Sigurd back quickly to fight the Cross Knights and transporting Levin back to recruit Fury. You are right though, I'll move her back down, possibly above Briggd due to her being an archer.

I'll try not to be so quick in making changes in the future.

[Darros]

Sigurd does not meed to fight the Herhein Army. Eltshan can usually do that by himself and if not Cuan or Fin can help. If this is effeciency Sigurd wants to press straight on to Verdane.

[Salad Utensil]

@Ninji: Your arguments sound convincing. I'll put Holyn, Aira, and Jamka back in High, above Midir and Briggd.

Now that I think about it, I think I did get Lachesis to promotion by Chapter 4, so top of Upper Mid she goes. You do have a point about Ethlin and her staff rank, though I can see some usefulness with it such as transporting Sigurd back quickly to fight the Cross Knights and transporting Levin back to recruit Fury. You are right though, I'll move her back down, possibly above Briggd due to her being an archer.

I'll try not to be so quick in making changes in the future.

Ethlin's Return staff is nice, I guess, but you probably want to give it to Lachesis to level with in chapter 3 at some point. Otherwise all she's doing is healing and chipping occasionally with a light sword or Javilin, I think she should honestly be next to her husband on the list.

[_____]

I already posted a Paperblade argument on the first page, as to why Holyn is better than Levin, and... you ignored it, apparently.

oh boy

[Radiant Dragon]

Sigurd does not meed to fight the Herhein Army. Eltshan can usually do that by himself and if not Cuan or Fin can help. If this is effeciency Sigurd wants to press straight on to Verdane.

I'm pretty sure he meant the enemy Cross Knights in Chapter 3, not the allied ones in Chapter 1.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Salad Utensil]

I think Tailto>Arden since she can actually amount to something kind of useful in chapter 5 (well B staves might be helpful somewhere and accurate chipping with wrath goodness) whereas Arden never really is able to kill anything ever...unless this list is actually going to count the pursuit ring he gets you which I don't think the list should.

[_____]

Tiltyu is pretty much Ardan if he joined in 'Chapter 3' (really Chapter 4) instead of the Prologue and couldn't use the Arena for those first 4 chapters.

[Dark Sage]

I already posted a Paperblade argument on the first page, as to why Holyn is better than Levin, and... you ignored it, apparently.

oh boy

I honestly forgot about it. I'll fix that.

[Salad Utensil]

I honestly forgot about it. I'll fix that.

At least be a little more skeptical about that analysis first (before making a spontaneous change).

It doesn't actually post enemy stats nor gives a specific strategic use for Holyn in the prescribed situations. Holyn has acceptable durability due to his HP, but if he really 1RKOs like the situation described he's faces a ton of mounts with existent hit rates meaning he faces actual death chances during enemy phase because the enemy AI targets your units with the lowest defense that it can typically reach under normal circumstances. In other words while Holyn can 1RKO scrubs is it applicable into an actual low turn PT? Now 1RKOing scrubs is kind of useful in chapter 3 and 2, but...

On the other hand Levn offers you fairly reliable boss killing potential and solid durability during chapter 5 and 4 which I think is more important that Holyn killing scrubs in chapters 2 and 3.

On Aira vs. Holyn

Now I haven't actually looked at numbers but does Holyn's durability allow him to actually take one more hit than Aira on a consistently significant basis?

Tiltyu is pretty much Ardan if he joined in 'Chapter 3' (really Chapter 4) instead of the Prologue and couldn't use the Arena for those first 4 chapters.

If given a little favoritism like getting enough money for the elite ring and magic ring and being warped back home, Tailto can reliably clear both the chapter 3 and 4 arena. In chapter 5, I've been able to promote her reliably, which I think having B ranked staves, potentially giving lover bonuses (more likely than Arden), 6move, and passable combat is>Arden guarding the castle that will never be attacked to begin with. Now it does take some strategy to get Dew to give her the money without costing turns during chapter 3, but usually no one else really NEEDS it badly so it doesn't hurt to fix her.

In other words, it's easier to fix Tailto compared to Arden since we need to assume they are being used. Arden has no potential at all since his combat is always bad and his movement is always 5 since you have to waste the hero sword on him to make him barely passable, whetheras Tailto just needs a crapton a bit of gold for chapter 3.

Last thing: I think Azel>Claude, but I don't really want to make an argument for it now, besides availability 9move>5move, and Reserve isn't THAT great since it's mostly overkill.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Dark Sage]

At least be a little more skeptical about that analysis first (before making a spontaneous change).

Right. It's my first time running a tier list, so of course I'm going to make mistakes. Definitely going to do better though.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Sagekitty

[Paperblade]

base Holyn has 30 attack and 94 Hit at base w/Steel Blade

this 2HKOs every generic with Elliot (22x2 damage vs. 38HP), and gives him 78 hit (88 w/Sigurd or Lach, 98 with both) hit on the Lance Knights. He has 100 vs. the Axe Knights

3HKOs Armors (18*2 damage vs. 47-49HP) at 100/92/81 hit, ORKO with a Luna proc (except vs. the Lance armors, but he only needs 1 Str up and he could have feasibly got that from the arena)

Lance Knights between Heirhein and Anphony (21*2 damage to 40HP)

Free Knights (22*2 damage vs. 37HP)

Swordfighters (22*2 damage vs. 42HP)

Bowfighters (22*2 damage vs. 40HP)

Mages (29*2 damage vs. 34HP)

the Lance Knights and Cavs that charge you (21*2 damage vs. 42HP)

and Zain's group

- Bowknight L9, 39/9/0/8/8/0/8/0, Iron Bow, 0 (4)

- Axeknight L10, 40/10/1/9/9/0/9/1, Iron Axe, -9 (4)

- Lanceknight L13, 43/10/1/9/9/0/9/1, Iron Lance, -3 (6)

- Troubadour L12, 38/6/4/9/9/0/5/4, Slim Sword, Relive, 8 (3)

he ORKOs everything here save the Lance Knight, which he needs to gain 1 Str over the course of the chapter, including the arena

[_____]

At least be a little more skeptical about that analysis first (before making a spontaneous change).

It doesn't actually post enemy stats nor gives a specific strategic use for Holyn in the prescribed situations. Holyn has acceptable durability due to his HP, but if he really 1RKOs like the situation described he's faces a ton of mounts with existent hit rates meaning he faces actual death chances during enemy phase because the enemy AI targets your units with the lowest defense that it can typically reach under normal circumstances. In other words while Holyn can 1RKO scrubs is it applicable into an actual low turn PT? Now 1RKOing scrubs is kind of useful in chapter 3 and 2, but...

Uh, no. That's not how the AI works at all. The AI has absolutely no sense of self-preservation, you're right on that, but they will not just swarm the enemies with the lowest defense. They're not smart enough to. Besides, Holyn's evade is almost as high as Ayra's (at base, Ayra has 2 luck over him, that's it). The man is almost never hit, and on the rare occasion where he is, he can normally shrug it off and counter for solid kills.

On the other hand Levn offers you fairly reliable boss killing potential and solid durability during chapter 5 and 4 which I think is more important that Holyn killing scrubs in chapters 2 and 3.

Levin gets Holsety very late in Chapter 4, and half of Chapter 5 is just sending Fury/Sigurd into the desert for a thousand turns. His contributions are very limited at that point, and this is after putting up with his average performance prior to this.

On Aira vs. Holyn

Now I haven't actually looked at numbers but does Holyn's durability allow him to actually take one more hit than Aira on a consistently significant basis?

Yes, it does. I can't remember where, but a huge conversation about it has taken place, with Holyn being generally considered better due to the durability lead. Run the numbers yourself if you like.

If given a little favoritism like getting enough money for the elite ring and magic ring and being warped back home

Stopped reading there.

[Salad Utensil]

Uh, no. That's not how the AI works at all. The AI has absolutely no sense of self-preservation, you're right on that, but they will not just swarm the enemies with the lowest defense. They're not smart enough to. Besides, Holyn's evade is almost as high as Ayra's (at base, Ayra has 2 luck over him, that's it). The man is almost never hit, and on the rare occasion where he is, he can normally shrug it off and counter for solid kills.

Well I was just basing this off of personal experience here and the tendency for enemies to attack my weaker units, so yeah I could be wrong. This is just what I've encountered. I'm just confirming to see if there are grounds to argue about just how much Holyn is actually contributing in comparison to that post you posted.

Levin gets Holsety very late in Chapter 4, and half of Chapter 5 is just sending Fury/Sigurd into the desert for a thousand turns. His contributions are very limited at that point, and this is after putting up with his average performance prior to this.

This also doesn't really directly address Levn's slaying the chapter 5 bosses either. Langobalt has high defense and can be handled easily by Levn attacking from range allowing Sigurd to seize in the same turn while getting danced afterward. Levn moves into Leptor's range while still in the desert, Levn kills boss during enemy phase or player phase. How is everyone else doing this chapter? I could be totally off, but I'm sure Levn alone can cut down that 1000 turn count for chapter 5 into 999 :)

Yes, it does. I can't remember where, but a huge conversation about it has taken place, with Holyn being generally considered better due to the durability lead. Run the numbers yourself if you like.

I'll take your word for it. My main gripe is that if there isn't grounds for Levn>Holyn, then are there really grounds for Levn>Aira? It seems strange when similar characters with similar traits, who do very similar things, would have a very different character who does very different things between them.

I don't think Holyn>Levn is so cut and dry yet since the tier list is looking to cut turns not who is better at combat throughout the game.

Stopped reading there.

Cool story bro.

-So since no one is refuting Tailto>Arden I'm assuming it should be changed now ;)

-Also since no one refuted Azel>Claude I think that automatically means that everyone is in agreement on this issue and I recommend TC should do it as well ;)

Edited July 21, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Life]

-So since no one is refuting Tailto>Arden I'm assuming it should be changed now ;)

-Also since no one refuted Azel>Claude I think that automatically means that everyone is in agreement on this issue and I recommend TC should do it as well ;)

Doesn't work like that. Nobody refuted it because nobody NOTICED it.

[Paperblade]

Ardan is a worthless do-nothing

Tiltyu has 30 magic attack

Tiltyu >>>

[Salad Utensil]

Doesn't work like that. Nobody refuted it because nobody NOTICED it.

It most certainly does works like that, how else are politicians getting away with "wasteful" government spending?

You did notice it, yet do not refute Azel>Claude and Tailto>Arden doesn't that imply that it makes intuitive sense? Otherwise someone would have had a psychological urge to reply with contempt.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Dark Sage]

I should probably list out the contributions that Levin, Aira, and Holyn make on their chapters when it's morning and I actually have access to stats, but I really don't think it's so cut and dry. It's all about how to weigh contributions. In Chapter 2, Levin's key for saving the villages and allowing us to get the Bargain Ring (though he needs Sylvia for this, so he has to share credit) and he has some pretty good bosskilling abilities once he gets his mitts on Holsety. This is especially important since bosses such as Langobalt and Reptor are armed with holy weapons, so Levin's arguably the fastest and safest way to kill them.

Assuming Levin is level 22 when he faces Langobalt (taking into account Charisma + Leadership stars):

Levin: HP 48, Atk 54, Hit 156 , AS 45, Avoid 120 (taking into account weapon weight here, tell me if I'm wrong), Def 8, Res 15

Levin has a 65% chance of activating Continue and a 33% chance of activating Critical.

Langobalt: HP 75, Atk 51, Hit 122, AS -4, Avoid 42, Def 41, Res 20

Levin has a 66% chance of OHKOing Langobalt while facing a 2% chance of getting hit and is 2HKO'd anyway. That's pretty impressive.

Of course that's just one boss, which really shouldn't affect tier positioning, but I'm very tired right now and I'll edit in a full analysis on what Levin, Holyn, and Aira can do when I'm not feeling like dropping off.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Sagekitty

[Shin]

Tiltyu has a little chance to grow in Chapter 3. However, all the wind mages in the next chapter aren't good for her. At least Arden has WTA and some durability, although he contributes very little to the second generation (other than the pursuit ring).