FE4 efficiency tier lists

[Anouleth]

I should probably list out the contributions that Levin, Aira, and Holyn make on their chapters when it's morning and I actually have access to stats, but I really don't think it's so cut and dry. It's all about how to weigh contributions. In Chapter 2, Levin's key for saving the villages and allowing us to get the Bargain Ring (though he needs Sylvia for this, so he has to share credit) and he has some pretty good bosskilling abilities once he gets his mitts on Holsety. This is especially important since bosses such as Langobalt and Reptor are armed with holy weapons, so Levin's arguably the fastest and safest way to kill them.

Assuming Levin is level 22 when he faces Langobalt (taking into account Charisma + Leadership stars):

Levin: HP 48, Atk 54, Hit 156 , AS 45, Avoid 120 (taking into account weapon weight here, tell me if I'm wrong), Def 8, Res 15

Levin has a 65% chance of activating Continue and a 66% chance of activating Critical.

Langobalt: HP 75, Atk 51, Hit 122, AS -4, Avoid 42, Def 41, Res 20

Levin has a 66% chance of OHKOing Langobalt while facing a 2% chance of getting hit and is 2HKO'd anyway. That's pretty impressive.

Of course that's just one boss, which really shouldn't affect tier positioning, but I'm very tired right now and I'll edit in a full analysis on what Levin, Holyn, and Aira can do when I'm not feeling like dropping off.

I would imagine that if you're going to use Levin to kill Langobalt, you'd give him the Magic Ring so he 2HKOes, increasing his chance to ORKO to 88%.

[Paperblade]

Levin only has 33% Critical, not sure where 66% came from

Critical is just (Skill + MAX(0, Weapon Kills-50))%, and since he has a base of 23 Skill + 10 from Holsety.

Langobalt also has Big Shield which reduces his chance to kill a little bit

Edited July 21, 2011 by Paperkitty

[Shin]

Levin only has 33% Critical, not sure where 66% came from

Critical is just (Skill + MAX(0, Weapon Kills-50))%, and since he has a base of 23 Skill + 10 from Holsety.

Langobalt also has Big Shield which reduces his chance to kill a little bit

There's also the chance that a critical activates on the continued attack. Although the maths only puts it at 38% (when taking Big Shield into account).

[Sartek]

Briggid in high tier is a little disturbing. She comes late, has limited movement range and nearly no utility yet is higher than a flyer, and an unit that can heal, fight and support your allies. She should drop behind Fury.

[Salad Utensil]

Tiltyu has a little chance to grow in Chapter 3. However, all the wind mages in the next chapter aren't good for her. At least Arden has WTA and some durability, although he contributes very little to the second generation (other than the pursuit ring).

Your argument has no weight at all because you don't directly compare Tailto and Arden at all.

They are both bad against wind mages so it's a good thing that this game has more than 1 enemy type throughout (BTW Arden is significantly worse since he only has 1 range, less avoid (you can chose to use Tailto as bait if you unequip her) and resistance, or steals the thunder sword from someone else), Arden's contributions in chapter 1, 2, and Prologue are minimal toward reducing turncount.

Arden has WTA in chapter 1 and Prologue in which case he will pretty much never use it in a way the player actually cares aboutt] due to 5 move, 1 range, and worst movement type, even then he has trouble killing brigands. The generation tier lists are independent of each other otherwise Tailto would be higher.

Wrath+magic ring (which is less coveted than the hero sword) allows Tailto to kill generic enemies, promotion brings her up to B staves if favored a bit (this isn't a detriment unless it causes your turn counts to be higher). Arden goes from never being able to reach enemies nor killing them if he does reach them to never reaching enemies nor killing them without stealing really nice weapons after promotion and wasting your EXP. Arden has almost no potential, thus less incentive for use, and no easy way to fix his problems while Tailto just needs a magic ring to contribute and favoritism to contribute even more.

Briggid in high tier is a little disturbing. She comes late, has limited movement range and nearly no utility yet is higher than a flyer, and an unit that can heal, fight and support your allies. She should drop behind Fury.

Maybe the issue is that Fury is too low rather than Briggid is too high

Edited July 21, 2011 by Salad Utensil

[Anouleth]

Maybe the issue is that Fury is too low rather than Briggid is too high

Briggid is also still above Lachesis, which I disagree with for reasons I mentioned before. She's also above Cuan and Fin who have four chapters of being good compared to her two. So I think it's Briggid that needs to move down.

[Paperblade]

Hm, I could definitely see Fin/Cuan > Briggid

[Dark Sage]

So could I honestly. They do have an availability lead over her, even if they do leave right after Chapter 3. I also think Fury is better than Briggd as well because of flight utility and because she's doritos for the Hero Lance once Fin leaves thanks to innate Pursuit.

Of course Briggd does have really, really good player phase for her entire existence and Chapter 4 is filled with Pegs, and Ichival means she could get some OHKO's on all the pegs, including Deetvar. I don't think it's quite enough to override what Cuan/Fin/Fury do though, especially since Briggd is an archer, and an unmounted one at that.

I honestly agree with her dropping, but if anyone would like to defend her placement or provide an argument for why Briggd>everyone else, I'd like to hear it before making the change. I don't want to make any mistakes.

Oh, and I'm gonna add Claude!Rana to the list. I'm not sure where though. Suggestions?

[Psych]

Between either Fin and Laylea, or Queen of Upper Mid.

[Anouleth]

Any thoughts on adding Lex!Arthur and Lex!Tinny?

[Mekkah]

Yes, they suck.

[Balcerzak]

First, I question whether an efficient playthrough would even acquire the Gen 1 Hero Axe, as it costs turns. Further, I'm positive Briggid going childless is the only efficient outcome, a problem I would not be surprised to see Tilytu share as well. In fact, the only non-sub children I would expect to see would be Ayra, Aideen, and Fury. Maybe Lachesis. Good children simply do not make up for the loss in turns accrued by waiting for pairings in Gen 1, as Celice/Leaf/Aless/Shanan/Oifaye should be more than capable.

I suppose I really ought to wait to comment after I've done a subs playthrough to be sure, but from watching some videos, this is the conclusion I was forced to arrive at. I'm not sure how much of this is invalidated by some of the random number massage, or by forced arena clears, but I wouldn't imagine it to be all that much.

[Darros]

You totally forgot Sylvia. With those crazy high love growths it's hard for Sylvia to not fall in love.

[_____]

First, I question whether an efficient playthrough would even acquire the Gen 1 Hero Axe, as it costs turns. Further, I'm positive Briggid going childless is the only efficient outcome, a problem I would not be surprised to see Tilytu share as well. In fact, the only non-sub children I would expect to see would be Ayra, Aideen, and Fury. Maybe Lachesis. Good children simply do not make up for the loss in turns accrued by waiting for pairings in Gen 1, as Celice/Leaf/Aless/Shanan/Oifaye should be more than capable.

I suppose I really ought to wait to comment after I've done a subs playthrough to be sure, but from watching some videos, this is the conclusion I was forced to arrive at. I'm not sure how much of this is invalidated by some of the random number massage, or by forced arena clears, but I wouldn't imagine it to be all that much.

For the sake of discussion, the 1st and 2nd generation were typically considered two separate entities. Inefficiency that may occur for a specific pairing to happen is generally ignored.

[Integrity]

If we're counting the first and second generations as separate entities, why not make them two separate lists?

EDIT:

failtegrity is fail

Edited July 23, 2011 by Integrity

[Esaka]

Brought this to Gamefaqs and now we're wondering some things.

For example, why is Midir so high?

[Anouleth]

I was thinking, if this is efficiency, can we really afford to spend the 28 turns minimum to get Aideen and Midayle to fall in love (and that if we set up a jealousy triangle with Ira and Diadora)? Because without the Hero Bow, Midayle's offense isn't exactly amazing. For example, Level 20 Midayle is 2 points of ATK and SPD behind Level 20 Beowolf. And it's not like Midayle's Chapter P and 1 are amazing either, where he's Alec +Charge.

[Paperblade]

Brought this to Gamefaqs and now we're wondering some things.

For example, why is Midir so high?

Midir with Killer Bow kills things fine and he generally gets to combat several turns before the 6 move units.

Most people that play FE4 seem incapable of buying/selling weapons at the pawn shop (see: Ayra's "free' Hero Sword).

Edited July 29, 2011 by Paperkitty

[Excellen Browning]

True enough statement, but he's locked to PP. First because he's lolbows second because his defensive stats aren't worth shit. So putting him above Alec and Noish is still above me.

EDIT: the same thing applies to Jamka, really. He's also locked to PP and wants his killer bow back.

Edited July 30, 2011 by Excelkitty

[Anouleth]

True enough statement, but he's locked to PP. First because he's lolbows second because his defensive stats aren't worth shit. So putting him above Alec and Noish is still above me.

EDIT: the same thing applies to Jamka, really. He's also locked to PP and wants his killer bow back.

The problem is that enemy phase doesn't really mean much. Many enemies wield ranged weapons, and AI is schizophrenic enough that you can't really "guarantee" that they'll all suicide neatly into one of your units. Sometimes, ranged enemies will actually let your bow users counterattack.

[Mekkah]

The list as-is seems to underrate mounts and overrate stats. The prime example of this is Brigid, who has a holy weapon but everything else about her sucks (no mount, bows, worst availability possible). For most comparisons not involving her, we're talking about some huge trade-offs. For example, Alec has a mount and the best availability, but his combat is less than optimal when you go beyond Ch1. Compared to, say, Holyn, his combat is very good but his availability and movement are so much worse.

Lex is really the only non-Sigurd mount that overcomes this because he's good and mounted forever, although if he doesn't get to pick up the Hero Axe in interest of low turning then he should be dropping quite a bit (although he will still 2RKO with Steel/Silver, so at worst he will be Alec level).

A rough revamp should be something like this:

sigurd

lex (assumed hero axe is available)

ethlin

cuan

fin

midir

fury

lachesis

alec

beowulf

noish

levin

holyn

ayra

jamka

I think the Lenster trio are better than the others in here despite their leaving at the end of Ch3. Ethlin provides your other mounts with healing they would otherwise be deprived of when they need it the most, which is so important when they need to face entire armies in one turn to allow Sigurdto make optimum progress. The Prologue mounts (including non-Hero Axe Lex) are nice and all, but I don't think what is essentially 2RKOing all game long makes up for something this clutch. Meanwhile, Cuan is just a step above the others especially once axes disappear, and Fin turns enemies into red mist once he climbs out of his small rut (which is quite quick with the right amount of favouritism).

Lachesis needs more research done on her when she can promote. If it's Ch4 base, then she provides the perfect replacement for Ethlin by healing your mounts. Her godlike combat is really just a bonus compared to that, especially considering how weak Ch4 and Ch5 enemies are compared your promoted army.

Levin/Holyn/Ayra/Jamka all have good combat, but they get to use it so much less than the others for various reasons (not reaching due to 6 mov, not having enough durability, not having an enemy phase like Jamka, not being available until Ch2, etc) that I would just put them all below them.

Brigid is bad enough to be even a tier below all of this, I think. It might even be questionable if it's possible to obtain Ichieval while low turning, considering how important Return/Warp are to station at various castles in Ch3, which means there might be no way to get Brigid and Aideen together.

This game really needs some kind of efficiency run done. I think Gergeshwan did one?

[Anouleth]

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=19747

I don't know how "good" his run is, but efficiency is definitely his objective.

[Aquilae]

Lachesis could stand to move up above Fury in that list because of Rescue, which lets her save quite a bit of turns from Chapter 4 onwards, especially with the help of Sylvia. Not sure if she can go higher up. Also, Briggid probably can't get the Ichival in an efficiency run, as it takes a lot of turns to get Briggid and Aideen to meet (it took around 5 turns of idling around in my playthrough). Her combat doesn't suffer that much though, except against bosses and tough arena enemies.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Aquilae