QUINTESSENCE? DONT UNDERSTAND

[Anouleth]

See, the problem is that you proceed with the assumption that nothing interesting can happen in Chapters 3, 4, and 5. "Oh if it wasn't bandits it would be random hired thugs." Compare what happens in the first ten chapters of FESS to the first ten chapters of Lyn's Mode. People complain and complain about how short FESS is, when really FESS is simply concise. It cuts out the filler. There could have easily been only one chapter where Lyn fights the Ganelon bandits. One chapter to get out of Bern. The problem with filler as that it causes pacing problems; you spend too much time when nothing relevant to the plot occurs.

Sacred Stones is too short. More chapters is better. Because the gameplay is fun. Of course, since you treat the gameplay like a chore you have to endure to get to more dialogue, you wouldn't understand.

Chapter 1:

Random Grado soldiers attack Frelia, for seemingly no reason (it's not mentioned before this point that Grado is also at war with Frelia).

Chapter 2 and 3:

Random bandits. I guess it illustrates the decay of order in Renais, but it could have been cut to one chapter.

Chapter 5 and 6 and 7:

Random soldiers. All three of these chapters could have been cut out.

[General Banzai]

The whole assumption thing is to point that if it isn't a pointless fight over here, it would be a pointless fight over there. It was an example of what could happen if the chapter slot were to be moved. I kept it within Lyn Mode to keep it simple, since it's an structure on it's own and is smaller so it makes delivering the point easier to do.

When it comes to a game structured like FE, a filler chapter has the purpose of extra training for your units. This is why there are chapters where nothing much is happening other than being 'just one more battle'. Filler isn't bad as long as it's executed well. Drag it on and it can become bothersome, have it too short and there wouldn't be much chances to train units, unless the game has it's enemies to be overall weaker to accommodate the fact you didn't fought as many people on the way to gather EXP, items, etc.

You know, saying that there's no way for this game to avoid "pointless fights" isn't a point in its favor. If the plot structure at its very core is structured in a way that every battle must be random and without much direct relation to the plot, there's a big issue.

And again, you can train your units in chapters where you're doing things relevant to the plot. Maybe if FE7 had had a plot with more nuances and subtleties, it wouldn't need to rely on "Here's some people talking... and now some random guys show up to fight them" in most of the early- and mid-game chapters.

Sacred Stones is too short. More chapters is better. Because the gameplay is fun. Of course, since you treat the gameplay like a chore you have to endure to get to more dialogue, you wouldn't understand.

Chapter 1:

Random Grado soldiers attack Frelia, for seemingly no reason (it's not mentioned before this point that Grado is also at war with Frelia).

Chapter 2 and 3:

Random bandits. I guess it illustrates the decay of order in Renais, but it could have been cut to one chapter.

Chapter 5 and 6 and 7:

Random soldiers. All three of these chapters could have been cut out.

More is not always better. I'd rather have 20 concise, well-executed chapters than 40 lousy filler chapters.

Also, it is explained later that Grado has commenced war with Frelia. In fact, literally when you speak to Hayden at the end of Chapter 1. So no, I fail to see how this is an issue. It's not a problem if you ask questions and then explain them. What FE7 does is ask questions and then forget all about them.

In Chapter 5 the soldiers are hunting for the traitor Natasha, who later explains to you about Grado's plans with the Sacred Stones, an incredibly plot-critical point. In Chapter 6 the Grado soldiers are hunting for Eirika's bracelet, which Seth later explains is the key to the stone of Renais. This is also a plot-critical event. In Lyn's Mode, we have four chapters of bandits where nothing new is revealed about Lyn or the plot whatsoever. Furthermore, later in Eliwood's mode the gameplay and story see a disconnect. In Chapter 5 and 6 of FESS, it is the fact that soldiers are hunting for seemingly innocuous things (Natasha/bracelet) which leads to their reveal.

I'll give you Chapter 7, though, if that makes you happy.

Edited July 26, 2011 by General Banzai

[Momo]

Sacred Stones is too short. More chapters is better. Because the gameplay is fun. Of course, since you treat the gameplay like a chore you have to endure to get to more dialogue, you wouldn't understand.

Gameplay isn't the same as story. Saying "it's more fun this way" doesn't mean it doesn't make the story stupid.

[Acacia Sgt]

You know, saying that there's no way for this game to avoid "pointless fights" isn't a point in its favor. If the plot structure at its very core is structured in a way that every battle must be random and without much direct relation to the plot, there's a big issue.

And again, you can train your units in chapters where you're doing things relevant to the plot. Maybe if FE7 had had a plot with more nuances and subtleties, it wouldn't need to rely on "Here's some people talking... and now some random guys show up to fight them" in most of the early- and mid-game chapters.

But it's not. Not every battle is random, in fact, you can give meaning to many of them by analyzing them a bit. Things like bandits still have their reasons to be present and have a battle against. Yet they as well as random soldiers and stuff can still become repetitive. You are under the assumption that there can't be filler due to being filler. There can be, and again, it comes to it's execution that dictates if it's bad or not, not that it is filler itself.

Except that overall it would need either a tweak on the EXP gaining formulas, have the enemies overall weaker, drop more stuff, be given more stuff during events and more visiting villages/houses/opening chests, and/or have more enemies in each chapter. If it's the case, it may seem overwhelming than just spreading it out more.

[Othin]

You guys are giving me too much to read. Stop that.

Besides, most of this stuff can be given a rough theory if you think of the situations.

Like the enemy levels in ch 7 compared with the situation that you mentioned. A simple solution to this is that Nergal is still working from the shadows. He does not have complete control over the black fang yet to make sure his orders are followed through with the utmost urgency that he might want. Therefore, the rest of black fang that is still intact treats the capture of two children as low priority thus why some of the weakest members are sent to do the bidding. Another simple solution is that black fang strength gains as time goes on with influence from Nergal's magicks. Why does the enemy have to stay inexperienced too?

When do morphs appear as enemies anyway en masse.

Sure, let's go with that.

Leila: Then about a year ago, Brendan got married again. Black Fang's operations have slowly changed since then.

A year... right around when Lyn's mode happens. That fits with what you were saying. So clearly, Nergal wouldn't have been able to control what was happening there directly... wait.

Assassin : Heh heh heh... Found him! C'mon, it's back to Nergal with you. Quiet now.

So the assassins were working directly for Nergal after all. Which is especially odd.

Leila: I've yet to lay eyes on Nergal. I've spoken to Ephidel on several occasions, however.

So Leila, posing as a Black Fang member for several months, was never able to see Nergal, but this random Black Fang guy was working for him directly right around when Sonia married Brendan, which means Nergal should only be starting to do things indirectly at this point. But it turns out, he's ordering around groups of Black Fang members and even could get Ursula to oversee the whole thing. But he couldn't get any actually strong Black Fang members to go after them, and he couldn't get Ursula to involve herself personally... so why not send the Morphs? He actually should be able to get them to carry out a potentially difficult and important mission, as they're the ones he actually has influence over and they report to him directly. And he could have had Sonia, Ephidel, or Limstella actually command the mission and capture the twins personally.

So in other words, what actually happened in Ch7 made even less sense, and Nergal still had far better ways to capture the twins if he was that close to getting them already.

Also, found some odd quotes on the way to all this.

Leila: Then about a year ago, Brendan got married again. Black Fang's operations have slowly changed since then. Now, they'll take on any target, no matter how difficult, as long as they're paid. And they're no longer killing only criminals; anyone is a fair target.

Full quote. This... doesn't sound accurate, and the emphasis on going after "difficult targets as long as they're paid" seems particularly unconcerning.

Eliwood: Are you looking for this girl here?

Nils: Ninian! Ninian!

Eliwood: She'll be fine. She's just lost consciousness.

Lyn: Who are you?

Eliwood: I'm Eliwood, of Pherae. My father is the marquess.

Lyn: The marquess's son.

Eliwood: She was with a band of ruffians. She seemed upset. She looked in need of rescuing... Was I wrong to involve myself?

Ursula: So the brother escaped, and the sister was rescued by a band of strangers. Do I understand you?

Beyard: Yes... They ambushed us, and...

So Eliwood thinks Ninian "looked in need of rescuing", so he and his knights ambush the Black Fang members, who apparently don't even put up enough of a fight to be worth mentioning. Then Eliwood sends away his knights and stays in the area with Ninian... why?

Edited July 26, 2011 by Othin

[Balcerzak]

Was I the only one who really liked Lyn mode, and it's extremely personal focus, achieved by actually documenting these little struggles, against mostly bandits, rather than a necessarily large and overblown "The world is in peril!" plot. It took an inheritance issue and breathed life into it. It goes into the bandits again and again to help drive home to Lyn the fact that without a proper marquess, this is exactly what the common people are at the mercy of, or like in Dorcas's case, what the common folk have to turn to to make ends meet.

[Othin]

Was I the only one who really liked Lyn mode, and it's extremely personal focus, achieved by actually documenting these little struggles, against mostly bandits, rather than a necessarily large and overblown "The world is in peril!" plot. It took an inheritance issue and breathed life into it. It goes into the bandits again and again to help drive home to Lyn the fact that without a proper marquess, this is exactly what the common people are at the mercy of, or like in Dorcas's case, what the common folk have to turn to to make ends meet.

...No. There's no evidence of the attacks ever having any meaning like that, either to the player or the characters.

[General Banzai]

...No. There's no evidence of the attacks ever having any meaning like that, either to the player or the characters.

In Chapter 3 Sain asks what the marquess does to stop the bandit attacks and Lyn says Bern has no marquess.

...That's the only mention of any kind of significance like the one he explained.

[Just call me AL]

Was I the only one who really liked Lyn mode, and it's extremely personal focus, achieved by actually documenting these little struggles, against mostly bandits, rather than a necessarily large and overblown "The world is in peril!" plot. It took an inheritance issue and breathed life into it. It goes into the bandits again and again to help drive home to Lyn the fact that without a proper marquess, this is exactly what the common people are at the mercy of, or like in Dorcas's case, what the common folk have to turn to to make ends meet.

No you're not. I liked it too. Aside from the details in your post, I also felt that it helps establish an attachment to Lyn as well as some others like Dorcas (like you mentioned). It also pulls of introductions of characters like Wallace nicely I might add. It's a shame more people don't seem to like it much though.

I've also read some comments (not on here mind you) that says future FEs should implement a segment much like Lyn's story in terms of newbie familiarity and character attachment establishment.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Elmer

[Anouleth]

More is not always better. I'd rather have 20 concise, well-executed chapters than 40 lousy filler chapters.

Again, that's a matter of personal taste. It's no surprise that if you don't appreciate the gameplay of Fire Emblem, you'd rather have fewer chapters, or even just have no chapters and watch the events (like FEDS gives you the option to do). Personally, I do enjoy the gameplay, and for me, I'd rather have a greater number of chapters, the quality of the gameplay being unchanged. And I would expect that most people who play Fire Emblem do so for the gameplay and not for the storylines, which are pretty stale.

Also, it is explained later that Grado has commenced war with Frelia. In fact, literally when you speak to Hayden at the end of Chapter 1. So no, I fail to see how this is an issue. It's not a problem if you ask questions and then explain them. What FE7 does is ask questions and then forget all about them.

Sure, but why do they attack Border Mulan which is on the other side from Grado? Doesn't it seem like a fabulous coincidence that soldiers should show up at the one castle where both Eirika and Tana are? If the Grado troops have reached Frelia already, why don't they cut off Eirika's escape path instead of attacking some random fort in the middle of nowhere? I guess they might be trying to reach the Tower of Valni, but even after you defeat Breguet, Grado just attacks the Tower of Valni anyway, so clearly it wasn't necessary to their plan.

In Chapter 5 the soldiers are hunting for the traitor Natasha, who later explains to you about Grado's plans with the Sacred Stones, an incredibly plot-critical point. In Chapter 6 the Grado soldiers are hunting for Eirika's bracelet, which Seth later explains is the key to the stone of Renais. This is also a plot-critical event. In Lyn's Mode, we have four chapters of bandits where nothing new is revealed about Lyn or the plot whatsoever. Furthermore, later in Eliwood's mode the gameplay and story see a disconnect. In Chapter 5 and 6 of FESS, it is the fact that soldiers are hunting for seemingly innocuous things (Natasha/bracelet) which leads to their reveal.

None of this necessitates a battle. Seth could tell Eirika about the bracelet in Chapter 2 when it gets stolen. Natasha could just join. The actual battle doesn't add anything to the story.

[General Banzai]

Again, that's a matter of personal taste. It's no surprise that if you don't appreciate the gameplay of Fire Emblem, you'd rather have fewer chapters, or even just have no chapters and watch the events (like FEDS gives you the option to do). Personally, I do enjoy the gameplay, and for me, I'd rather have a greater number of chapters, the quality of the gameplay being unchanged. And I would expect that most people who play Fire Emblem do so for the gameplay and not for the storylines, which are pretty stale.

Sure, but why do they attack Border Mulan which is on the other side from Grado? Doesn't it seem like a fabulous coincidence that soldiers should show up at the one castle where both Eirika and Tana are? If the Grado troops have reached Frelia already, why don't they cut off Eirika's escape path instead of attacking some random fort in the middle of nowhere? I guess they might be trying to reach the Tower of Valni, but even after you defeat Breguet, Grado just attacks the Tower of Valni anyway, so clearly it wasn't necessary to their plan.

None of this necessitates a battle. Seth could tell Eirika about the bracelet in Chapter 2 when it gets stolen. Natasha could just join. The actual battle doesn't add anything to the story.

Where are we getting this assumption that I don't appreciate the gameplay of Fire Emblem? I don't appreciate filler chapters. That's all I've said. I've also said that as an RPG Fire Emblem needs to meld plot and gameplay together. So actually, I love the gameplay of Fire Emblem. But the point is, you need both. You need gameplay and you need plot. I'm playing a role here. If what the gameplay is doing doesn't correspond with the plot, or is pointless to the plot, then that role is compromised. So stop making blanket assumptions about my feelings towards the gameplay of Fire Emblem and talk about what this thread is about: the plot.

As for the Border Mulan.

Soldier:

Milady, we lack the arms to defend this place. You must return to Castle Frelia.

Whoa, launching an attack on a fort that isn't well-defended? What a revolutionary concept!

Breguet:

Hmph. They're tenacious, but they have no hope of stopping our advance.

(Prologue introduction)

Grado's forces move quickly, seizing one territory after another.

Seth:

I see it. It seems like Grado's army has already reached Frelia. Princess, this place is perilous. We should bypass Mulan altogether and head straight to the castle.

Oh, I see, so Grado just conquered Renais. Even though the Border Mulan is the waypoint between Renais and Frelia, it doesn't make sense for Grado's army to go through it because it's not near Grado. Considering Grado has conquered Renais, Renais is now basically part of Grado. So no, attacking the Border Mulan makes sense.

As for Valni...

Soldier:

The tower holding the Sacred Stone of Frelia... It's been destroyed by the Grado Army!

Hayden:

What? That's impossible! What of the soldiers on watch? There were supposed to be many...

Soldier:

The enemy forces... They were led by Caellach the Tiger Eye and Selena Fluorspar! Our soldiers fell before even half a day had past!

[Doga]

i know my good sir.

god forbid humans disagree with eachother or give me an very amusing debate that leaves me questioning if i should like FE7's story or not.

I wouldn't care so much about this debate if I could last two seconds talking to the guy without him bringing this up. It's all he talks about, man.

[Othin]

Sure, but why do they attack Border Mulan which is on the other side from Grado? Doesn't it seem like a fabulous coincidence that soldiers should show up at the one castle where both Eirika and Tana are? If the Grado troops have reached Frelia already, why don't they cut off Eirika's escape path instead of attacking some random fort in the middle of nowhere? I guess they might be trying to reach the Tower of Valni, but even after you defeat Breguet, Grado just attacks the Tower of Valni anyway, so clearly it wasn't necessary to their plan.

None of this necessitates a battle. Seth could tell Eirika about the bracelet in Chapter 2 when it gets stolen. Natasha could just join. The actual battle doesn't add anything to the story.

Failure to take that one fort not ruining their plans does not mean it was not an important part of their plans.

Seth telling Eirika about the bracelet, and then the Grado soldiers never even making an attempt to get it back, would not have been plausible. Eirika was being actively hunted by Grado soldiers, including one of their six highest generals. Her being able to simply waltz into Grado and make it all the way to Renvall would not have been reasonable or believable. The same goes for Natasha; Lyon was attempting to silence and kill anything who knew anything about his story, so there's no reasonable way she could have simply walked into Eirika's party.

That said, again, all of this is simply a distraction from the issues with FE7's plot. Whether or not other games are just as bad about their plots, whether or not that may be justified, is irrelevant. That said, Banzai and I have also been analyzing FE8's plot as well, and as it seems it would settle several issues here to do so, we may soon post a similar FE8 critical analysis, which will be the time to discuss these matters. No promises, though.

What I will say for now is that for the FE8 analysis, we recognize the flaws it has and we will make no attempt to conceal them, but we will rationally judge their frequency and impact on the game's story as a whole - exactly like what we have done here. However, as we've said, this same process yields very different results from FE8 than from FE7, as we hope to show.

Now, with that out of the way, is there anyone else who would care to discuss FE7 specifically?

[-Cynthia-]

In Chapter 24 you happen to bumble into the same village where Lloyd, Linus, and Jaffar are all present. You then randomly fight them. Also, Geitz is a horrible character.

Geitz: I've nothing else to do. I'll fight 'til I get bored!

Let's look at his C support with Dart, just to drive in this point.

Geitz: Bored, bored, bored... Say, you're a pirate, aren't you? Let's do something exciting!

Dart: A word of advice, friend. Never sneak up on a man unfolding a treasure map!! Or...are you offering to come with me? That's why you're here, right?

Geitz: What's that?

Dart: Pfaw! That's why you never get anything done! If you've got time to complain, then you've got time to fight!

Geitz: I have an attention span of only about half an hour. Too bad, huh? Heh, heh!

Dart: Man, are you ever useless!

Geitz: God, this is all just so dull. Why can't something interesting happen?

This ought to speak for itself. I really want you to make sense of it. I really want you to try. It's like… no line logically follows the line that precedes it. It's a support of non sequiter. Geitz is basically fighting for you because he's bored. No other reason. Killing hundreds of people all in the name of boredom.

Geitz is a man who isn't sure what he wants in life. Let's take a look at Dart/Geitz B

Geitz: I’m hungry. When’s lunch? Food, food, food... Hey, pirate, go pilfer me some delicious swag from Merlinus!!

Dart: Geitz! Quit wasting my time!

Geitz: Right, right--how about fighting? Why don’t you go do some fighting for me?

Dart: Who are you giving orders to, fool!? Yarr!

Geitz: Umm, to you, I guess. I’ve always had help around, you see... Why, even as a child, I always had Nan-Nan and Grampy to help dress me... Hey! Stop it! Dart! I was joking about the swag! Put that axe away!

Dart: ...... You know, when you left the merchants guild, I thought I might actually like to partner up with you... But you just don’t change, do you? You just wander about, trying any new thing, and you never finish anything! You just keep doing that, over and over!

Geitz: ......

Dart: Geitz... What is your life about, anyway? What’s the point? Go ahead and be bored all your life, just stay out of my way!

Geitz: ...Ouch. I really didn’t need to hear all that...

Geitz's problems stem from realizing that his father was actually a slaver. He was disgusted by this and left...but his life on the merchant ship was the only one he had ever known. So he's on a journey to try and find a purpose in life...and thinks joining the Eliwood crew might help in this. Him saying that he's doing it "because he's bored" is a nonchalant way of expressing this (saying "I'm on a journey to find myself because I found out my dad is a bad man yadda yadda" is melodramatic and cheesy).

I agree that not every FE7 character is well written (Florina for example), but the Geitz analysis seemed to fixate on one line he said rather than seeing the whole story.

[Anouleth]

Where are we getting this assumption that I don't appreciate the gameplay of Fire Emblem? I don't appreciate filler chapters. That's all I've said. I've also said that as an RPG Fire Emblem needs to meld plot and gameplay together. So actually, I love the gameplay of Fire Emblem. But the point is, you need both. You need gameplay and you need plot. I'm playing a role here. If what the gameplay is doing doesn't correspond with the plot, or is pointless to the plot, then that role is compromised.

Then the role is compromised in all RPGs. Some degree of gameplay and story segregation always exists. I don't think it's necessary for plot to influence gameplay at all. If I wanted a good plotline, I'd read a book or watch a movie. Although I do concede that the plotline of FE7 is pretty incoherent in places, it's fine from the perspective of the player.

So stop making blanket assumptions about my feelings towards the gameplay of Fire Emblem and talk about what this thread is about: the plot.

Yet ultimately, what you're complaining about is that the plot exists to set up the gameplay. The bandits show up so you can have a battle. The assassins have huge armies because that's what Fire Emblem generally is; fighting huge armies. Ursula doesn't fight you because the game would be impossible. The plot is subservient to the gameplay. If it were up to you, you would remove a lot of the chapters since they don't add anything to the plot. That would be the gameplay being subservient to the plot. How many events are there in FE7? I mean, events that you care about and don't completely dismiss as "boring":

Eliwood goes to Santaruz (1 chapter)

Eliwood goes to Laus (1 chapter)

Apparently Caelin makes no sense to go to, neither is Badon

Eliwood goes to Dragon's Gate (3 chapters)

Assuming Eliwood isn't immediately killed by Jaffar like you expect, they go to Nabata next (1 chapter)

Travel to Bern and get the Fire Emblem (3 chapters)

Protect Zephiel and go to the Shrine of Seals (2 chapters)

Rest of the game (4 chapters)

So the game would only be 14 chapters long (and with no Gaidens) without this "filler". Personally, I would be disgusted if a company tried to sell me a game that short. I would rather have some of this apparently abominable "filler" than have the game end.

As for the Border Mulan.

Soldier:

Milady, we lack the arms to defend this place. You must return to Castle Frelia.

Whoa, launching an attack on a fort that isn't well-defended? What a revolutionary concept!

Rather begs the question of why Border Mulan isn't well defended in the first place. A single Mercenary? And the King's daughter is there, no less.

Seth:

I see it. It seems like Grado's army has already reached Frelia. Princess, this place is perilous. We should bypass Mulan altogether and head straight to the castle.

Oh, I see, so Grado just conquered Renais. Even though the Border Mulan is the waypoint between Renais and Frelia, it doesn't make sense for Grado's army to go through it because it's not near Grado. Considering Grado has conquered Renais, Renais is now basically part of Grado. So no, attacking the Border Mulan makes sense.

True, actually, I looked at the map.

As for Valni...

Soldier:

The tower holding the Sacred Stone of Frelia... It's been destroyed by the Grado Army!

Hayden:

What? That's impossible! What of the soldiers on watch? There were supposed to be many...

Soldier:

The enemy forces... They were led by Caellach the Tiger Eye and Selena Fluorspar! Our soldiers fell before even half a day had past!

How could they just disappear past Border Mulan and reach Valni? How could all their armies have crossed the continent and taken a well-defended tower in just half a day? If Grado is this potent, why don't they do the same to Jehanna and Rausten?

[General Banzai]

I wouldn't care so much about this debate if I could last two seconds talking to the guy without him bringing this up. It's all he talks about, man.

Now that I've posted this thread I don't have such a need to talk about it in chat now.

The thing is though, none of you guys read all too often so I can't talk to you guys about my other big interest at the moment.

The plot is subservient to the gameplay.

Glad you've recognized what I consider one of FE7's story's fatal flaws.

So the game would only be 14 chapters long (and with no Gaidens) without this "filler". Personally, I would be disgusted if a company tried to sell me a game that short.

Thanks for proving my point.

Edited July 27, 2011 by General Banzai

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

I wouldn't care so much about this debate if I could last two seconds talking to the guy without him bringing this up. It's all he talks about, man.

its all he talks about cause thats the main topic of this....well fourm topic post he made.

if you didn't like what he was saying then you could just never click on the topic again.

to me it seems that alot of people are getting really made that afew people don't think a game they like has a good story, and if they have a different opinon then you, why let that make you mad? if they don't think like you do then you can choose to ignore thier opinion and continue to like FE7's story, noone importent in your life will insult you for liking it and people on a internet fourm really don't matter to anyone.

if people on a internet fourm don't matter to anyone then why did i type this and am still here? cause i'm a huge hypocrit who doesn't take life on the internet seriously

[Othin]

Then the role is compromised in all RPGs. Some degree of gameplay and story segregation always exists. I don't think it's necessary for plot to influence gameplay at all. If I wanted a good plotline, I'd read a book or watch a movie. Although I do concede that the plotline of FE7 is pretty incoherent in places, it's fine from the perspective of the player.

In other games, it is not always compromised to anywhere near this extent.

If may be fine from your perspective. This thread is proof that it is not necessarily fine from the perspective of all players. Furthermore, a point Banzai has noted is that many of the issues with the game's story are actually covered well enough for it to seem okay when playing the game, but that is not and has never been the subject of this discussion.

Yet ultimately, what you're complaining about is that the plot exists to set up the gameplay. The bandits show up so you can have a battle. The assassins have huge armies because that's what Fire Emblem generally is; fighting huge armies. Ursula doesn't fight you because the game would be impossible. The plot is subservient to the gameplay. If it were up to you, you would remove a lot of the chapters since they don't add anything to the plot. That would be the gameplay being subservient to the plot. How many events are there in FE7? I mean, events that you care about and don't completely dismiss as "boring":

Eliwood goes to Santaruz (1 chapter)

Eliwood goes to Laus (1 chapter)

Apparently Caelin makes no sense to go to, neither is Badon

Eliwood goes to Dragon's Gate (3 chapters)

Assuming Eliwood isn't immediately killed by Jaffar like you expect, they go to Nabata next (1 chapter)

Travel to Bern and get the Fire Emblem (3 chapters)

Protect Zephiel and go to the Shrine of Seals (2 chapters)

Rest of the game (4 chapters)

So the game would only be 14 chapters long (and with no Gaidens) without this "filler". Personally, I would be disgusted if a company tried to sell me a game that short. I would rather have some of this apparently abominable "filler" than have the game end.

Congratulations; you've managed to miss the point once again. The problem is that FE7 has a plot that is only worth 14 chapters of material at most. The problem is that it requires inconsistencies and filler to have good gameplay. Look at FE10: Another game with solid Fire Emblem gameplay, where even if the few fillers were removed the length would still be almost three times the stripped-down FE7 length you proposed. A game where you're fighting actual armies who should have huge hordes of enemies, where situations like the Ursula one don't even exist. That is an FE that successfully balances story and gameplay. It doesn't do it perfectly, but it works. FE7 has no such balance whatsoever; it does not work at all.

I'll say now that if you decide to again drop the relevant parts of this discussion and turn this into an FE10 debate now, I'm not going to get involved. Don't like it, think I should stand by my points better? Right now, I really don't care.

[Doga]

its all he talks about cause thats the main topic of this....well fourm topic post he made.

if you didn't like what he was saying then you could just never click on the topic again.

to me it seems that alot of people are getting really made that afew people don't think a game they like has a good story, and if they have a different opinon then you, why let that make you mad? if they don't think like you do then you can choose to ignore thier opinion and continue to like FE7's story, noone importent in your life will insult you for liking it and people on a internet fourm really don't matter to anyone.

if people on a internet fourm don't matter to anyone then why did i type this and am still here? cause i'm a huge hypocrit who doesn't take life on the internet seriously

I wish it were that simple. I speak to Banzai by other means, and this has consumed conversation beyond Serenes.

Also Ice disapproves.

[Othin]

Ice disapproves of everything fun. He's getting old and boring.

[Doga]

Ice disapproves of everything fun. He's getting old and boring.

Ok then.

[Ice]

Othin, I'm less than 6 months older than you. As for boring, at least I have shit to do these days :L Maybe it's you who's getting boring?

[Anouleth]

Glad you've recognized what I consider one of FE7's story's fatal flaws.

Except that I don't consider it a flaw that game developers prioritise make the game fun and enjoyable

Thanks for proving my point.

And you missed my point: it is perfectly acceptable to stretch out the plot in order to make the game be of a respectable size.

Not that 14 chapters is low. Take FE9. Cut out chapters 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 18, 23, and 26 and you have 16 chapters remaining. Which is hardly any better.

Congratulations; you've managed to miss the point once again. The problem is that FE7 has a plot that is only worth 14 chapters of material at most.

See my above points about FE9. And you can do the same with other FEs. Even FE5. It's not very often that plot-important events occur in battles.

The problem is that it requires inconsistencies and filler to have good gameplay. Look at FE10: Another game with solid Fire Emblem gameplay, where even if the few fillers were removed the length would still be almost three times the stripped-down FE7 length you proposed. A game where you're fighting actual armies who should have huge hordes of enemies, where situations like the Ursula one don't even exist. That is an FE that successfully balances story and gameplay. It doesn't do it perfectly, but it works. FE7 has no such balance whatsoever; it does not work at all.

In fact, it works so badly that most people don't really notice? After all, the TC admitted that he played the game 15 times before actually examining the storyline in depth. Obviously, it can't be that bad.

I'll say now that if you decide to again drop the relevant parts of this discussion and turn this into an FE10 debate now, I'm not going to get involved. Don't like it, think I should stand by my points better? Right now, I really don't care.

If anything, I would actually say that FE10 has a bit too much plot for it's boots. I felt more time could have been spent in Daein in Part 1, for example, and it would also have eased things in terms of gameplay (since the Dawn Brigade have levelling issues).

[OrangeCrush980]

While FE7's plot has a lot of flaws, at least IS tried something new. Just to prove it, guess which game's plot I'm describing:

The game starts in country A, whose military is weak to average and specializes in cavaliers/paladins. This country is invaded by country B who has the strongest military on the continent. The leader of country A is killed in the invasion. A hero rises and goes to country C to request aid, and the combined might of country C and the remnants of country A are able to win lots of battles against country B. Along the way, the hero seeks MacGuffin(s) that will help him fight certain important enemie(s). Eventually, the main villain who controls country B is defeated and country A is liberated, with a child of their former leader as the new leader.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

While FE7's plot has a lot of flaws, at least IS tried something new. Just to prove it, guess which game's plot I'm describing:

The game starts in country A, whose military is weak to average and specializes in cavaliers/paladins. This country is invaded by country B who has the strongest military on the continent. The leader of country A is killed in the invasion. A hero rises and goes to country C to request aid, and the combined might of country C and the remnants of country A are able to win lots of battles against country B. Along the way, the hero seeks MacGuffin(s) that will help him fight certain important enemie(s). Eventually, the main villain who controls country B is defeated and country A is liberated, with a child of their former leader as the new leader.

fire emblem 8?

i sure hope i'm right