(FE10) Another another another RD draft

[Lilmik11]

Hey guys! Here's another draft that I will be hosting. Once again, I will be open to suggestions and change.

If you don't know or don't remember what's a draft, then go there and read, it's very helpful: http://serenesforest...opic=24029&st=0

The rules are here

[spoiler=Rules]- Normal Mode.

- No transfers or battle save abuse.

- Certain chapters where you do not have a character, you pay a penalty for using a character that you do not have. The turn penalty is below.

- BK is fair game in all chapters where he is deployable

- You can move skills around freely.

- Bexp use is allowed.

Lords and Drafted Characters

During this draft, each participant (the order is predetermined but randomly decided) will be allowed to choose a single character per round out of the list to use during this play through, excluding the lords which everyone can use, and no one else may use them unless they pay a penalty based on their placement on the tier list. As each round progresses, the number of units remaining will decrease so make sure to grab any units you'll be wanting to use early because they are likely to be gone fairly quick.

Here is what non-drafted units can do:

1.Move(Except for the dragons, they can't move if you didn't draft one of them

2.Trade items

3.Wait

4.Visit the church in 1-1

5.Shove other non-draftee units

6.Rescue other non-draftee units

If you have any suggestions, I will be pleased to hear them.

[spoiler=Penalties]

4 for everyone

1. Edward is free for 1-P.

2. Edward OR Nolan (at the user's discretion) are free for 1-1 and 1-2.

3. Volug is free for 1-5.

4. Elincia, Marcia and Nealuchi are free for 2-P.

5. Brom and Nephenee are free for 2-1.

6. One undrafted, non-Lucia unit is free for 2-2.

7. Geoffrey is free everytime he's available

8. One undrafted, seven-move unit (Boyd, Shinon, Mia, Rolf or Mist) is free for 3-1.

9. One undrafted, six-move unit (Soren, Rhys, Gatrie, Brom or Ilyana) is free for 3-3.

10.The BK and Lehran are free

11.You can take one undrafted sword user in the Endgame to bless the wyrmslayer without penalty.

[spoiler=Units]

■Oliver

■Kurthnaga

I sign up.

1.Xanderdog: Haar,Aran,Shinon,Janaff,Calill,Tauroneo,Vika,Leonardo,Danved

2.Soul: Edward,Volug,Marcia,Heather,Soren,Sanaki,Mordecai,Makalov,Lyre

3.QueenKittylincia: Titania,Laura,Ulki,Nealuchi,Rhys,Ranulf,Muarim,Fiona,Stefan

4.Lilmik11: Nolan,Gatrie,Nephenee,Lucia,Kieran,Giffca,Mist,Renning,Volke

5.PegKnightLover: Jill,Mia,Elincia,Tormod,Tibarn,Skrimir,Astrid,Nasir,Bastian

6.Green Oyster : Zihark,Nailah,Brom,Naesala,Rolf,Caineghis,Ena,Pelleas,Gareth

7.Sheebaba : Boyd,Oscar,Ilyana,Tanith,Sigrun,Meg,Lethe,Kyza,Kurthnaga

I hope you will have fun and remember, you gotta finish without complaining.However, if you need help or you're searching for something, then forum members can help you :)

Edited September 7, 2011 by Lilmik11

[Junkhead]

Sephiran is also second playthrough.

[Florete]

Why are you using old penalties?

Why are Micaiah, Sothe, and Ike in the unit pool?

And honestly, I feel like you should have waited for more results on Haar before doing anything about him, but oh well.

[Lilmik11]

Why are you using old penalties?

Why are Micaiah, Sothe, and Ike in the unit pool?

And honestly, I feel like you should have waited for more results on Haar before doing anything about him, but oh well.

OMG.So...<<these penalties>> are the old one? What are the new ones? I'm going the list, I just lazily copy-pasted a unit list.About Haar, seeing the way you guys are going to in the draft, it's going to take an eternity, no offense. Anyway, it's just that after thinking about it, he IS the best unit you can draft. He can almost SOLO part 3. That's way too good, if you ask me.

[Florete]

OMG.So...<<these penalties>> are the old one? What are the new ones? I'm going the list, I just lazily copy-pasted a unit list.About Haar, seeing the way you guys are going to in the draft, it's going to take an eternity, no offense. Anyway, it's just that after thinking about it, he IS the best unit you can draft. He can almost SOLO part 3. That's way too good, if you ask me.

There will pretty much always be best unit. That doesn't mean the unit is worth banning.

I was going to say to look at the topic you linked for new penalties because I thought it was Integrity's topic, but the link is broken. So go to Integrity's topic and look at the turn penalties section, or go to the Haar draft and look at the rules there, since they are the same.

We will take some time, yes, but "eternity" is needlessly over-exaggerating. Everyone is trying to do the best they possibly can, so it necessarily means people have to look harder for the best ways to do things.

[Junkhead]

I had Ilyana solo Part 3, 3 times in drafts. Does that mean she should be banned?

[Xander]

If Haar wasn't banned I'd probably join, seeing as how I've only been in one draft where he wasn't.

[Lilmik11]

OK. I'll unban Haar, because of popular demand. I understand what you are saying, and it's true. I also signed you up Xanderdog, if you still want to.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Lilmik11

[Xander]

K put me down

[PKL]

Sign me up.

[PKL]

Just wanted to say, only sign me up if u change penalties to the newest ones. Geo should be free in 2-3 and 3-9. Lehran and bk should be free too.

[Lilmik11]

The penalties are now changed to the new ones :)

[Junkhead]

I miss the old drafting system.

[Lilmik11]

I miss the old drafting system.

Like what? The one with different penalties? I agree, those were more fair, in the way that using Tibarn gave a HUUUUUGE penalty while using someone in 2-E was only 3. Now, it's 4 for everyone, so it's kinda easy to use anyone and get little to no consequences, even if that unit solo the chapter(See:Lucia).

[Junkhead]

Yes, but that wasn't the only thing. As we can see, banning Haar pretty much became a trend in the newer drafts, as well as making Herons and Geoffrey free. I don't really mind making BK & Lehran free, but I went on realizing that even the Herons have some worth in drafting. The different set of penalties was, in a way, unique. It just gave different values characters.

[Florete]

Like what? The one with different penalties? I agree, those were more fair, in the way that using Tibarn gave a HUUUUUGE penalty while using someone in 2-E was only 3. Now, it's 4 for everyone, so it's kinda easy to use anyone and get little to no consequences, even if that unit solo the chapter(See:Lucia).

The new penalties were designed around (hopefully) not needing to take any penalties while still keeping choices valuable. 2-E is an anomaly, and Geoffrey ended up free because drafting him for part 4 (effectively Endgame) would have been a joke. Tibarn's penalty in the old ruleset was overkill, anyway, since even at 4 turns he likely wouldn't be making it up in 4-2 unless you specifically planned around taking it, and in 4-5 there are multiple ways it can be done in 2-3 turns that don't involve him at all.

In the end it's a mostly arbitrary decision but this does a much better job of keeping it consistent with drafts for other games. Some of us, including myself and RD, also didn't like the idea of having penalties forced on the player.

It just gave different values characters.

You mean it gives arbitrary value to characters not based on their own merits but based on them being practically needed for specific maps.

[Lilmik11]

Yes, but that wasn't the only thing. As we can see, banning Haar pretty much became a trend in the newer drafts, as well as making Herons and Geoffrey free. I don't really mind making BK & Lehran free, but I went on realizing that even the Herons have some worth in drafting. The different set of penalties was, in a way, unique. It just gave different values characters.

What I don't get is making Geoffrey free: It completely makes him a worthless pick. The herons, I feel, were useless drafts. Lehran, eh whatever, I'm not going out of my way to get him.

Edit: Oops,Rfof posted before I finished writing. Anyway, I won't change my opinion, but will use the new rules.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Lilmik11

[Fenrir]

EDIT:@Lilmik, how is a heron worthless? Moving again sounds pretty god damn awesome to me.

I miss the old drafting system.

I agree. I see no problems with how it used to be, why was something fixed that wasn't broken?

You mean it gives arbitrary value to characters not based on their own merits but based on them being practically needed for specific maps.

Nobody is really NEEDED unless you chose not to draft anybody for those maps. The part I miss is grinding it out with sub-par units, that's kinda the point in drafts.

If we wanted to see who could beat the game fastest why doesn't everybody just play using all the units they want? My view is that nobody should be free,(aside from 1-9 BK) because the point is to actually draft them. I've drafted BK and herons before and haven't regretted it.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Fenrir

[PKL]

Whats wrong with the new penalties?

[Florete]

I agree. I see no problems with how it used to be, why was something fixed that wasn't broken?

Because it was broken.

Nobody is really NEEDED unless you chose not to draft anybody for those maps. The part I miss is grinding it out with sub-par units, that's kinda the point in drafts.

Try doing 1-1 with just Micaiah. You'll find it impossible without an absurd amount of luck. Try doing 2-3 without Geoffrey (and possibly without Kieran). You'll find it insanely difficult if not outright impossible. There are maps where you do need certain units. Part 2 in particular is annoying for drafts.

If we wanted to see who could beat the game fastest why doesn't everybody just play using all the units they want? My view is that nobody should be free,(aside from 1-9 BK) because the point is to actually draft them. I've drafted BK and herons before and haven't regretted it.

My view is that units should be drafted based on their own merits, not based on places where the situation demands I use them. Enough people agreed to make this the standard rule set.

[PKL]

Also, on the topic of different penalties for every character, its ridiculously arbitrary and dumb. And its more complicated too. I prefer every1 is a 4 turn penalty because i dont like having to check a list everytime i take a penalty.

[Fenrir]

Because it was broken.

I fail to see how.

Part 2 in particular is annoying for drafts.

Part 2 is annoying, but i don't think the solution is making a bunch of units free.

My view is that units should be drafted based on their own merits, not based on places where the situation demands I use them. Enough people agreed to make this the standard rule set.

Well, the situation has everything to do with where units are drafted, whether you like it or not. The only difference in these spots is that there is less units to pick.(only about 6 people in 2-3, correct?) If a character is your best on 10 separate stages don't you want to pick them? Picking somebody on their own merits means that Cain should go in the first round. Availability(and time of availability, not just being on masses of stages, but which stages) means everything.

Also, on the topic of different penalties for every character, its ridiculously arbitrary and dumb. And its more complicated too. I prefer every1 is a 4 turn penalty because i dont like having to check a list everytime i take a penalty.

I think completely opposite. Firstly, is it that hard for you to open a window and type in serenesforest and then find the correct topic?

And also, it should be subjective, because some units just aren't as good. Eddy > Leo early P1, no way around it. So are we acting like everybody equal? Because they most certainly aren't.

[zorbees]

I don't get why people who support the old rules don't care that 3-3 has the free unit.

[Florete]

I fail to see how.

Forcing penalties on the player shouldn't be in the spirit of drafts.

Part 2 is annoying, but i don't think the solution is making a bunch of units free.

What would you suggest, then? Make sure it doesn't involve forced penalties.

Well, the situation has everything to do with where units are drafted, whether you like it or not. The only difference in these spots is that there is less units to pick.(only about 6 people in 2-3, correct?) If a character is your best on 10 separate stages don't you want to pick them? Picking somebody on their own merits means that Cain should go in the first round. Availability(and time of availability, not just being on masses of stages, but which stages) means everything.

This is, as far as I can tell, totally accurate and the entire reason behind the new rules. Units should be picked based on things like availability, good bases, mobility, etc. "Best on 10 separate stages" is a great reason to pick someone.

Then look at Geoffrey. The sole reason to draft him in the past is to remove penalties. None of the above applies. Brom often went fast despite his mediocre stats and terrible mobility for the same reason; he removed penalties.

And also, it should be subjective, because some units just aren't as good. Eddy > Leo early P1, no way around it. So are we acting like everybody equal? Because they most certainly aren't.

It's not treating everyone as equal per se, it's just giving a universal penalty for doing something against the rules regardless of who did it. What benefit does giving Leonardo a 2 turn penalty and Tibarn a 7 turn penalty give? It makes the strong stronger and the weak weaker. Hardly a preferable alternative.

[Xander]

I think we should consider making Lucia free. She's around for 1 chapter where she's a forced penalty, until part 4 (like geoffrey), where she's mediocre due to her terrible strength growth.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Xanderdog