FE8 draft tier list

[Naglfar]

I haven't seen this one yet, so I'll put together an initial list and you guys can bicker with me and each other over it. In fact, please do, since a lot of this is guesswork. I'm especially unsure about the Upper Mid tier.

Assuming Eirika route. Might add an Ephraim route list later.

Top: Steamroll the game. Impediments are rare.

High: Extremely influential, but may lack the availability, mobility, or raw combat stats of the Top tier units.

Upper Mid: Similar to High tier units, but suffer from more pronounced disadvantageous periods than them.

Mid: Average. Worth drafting but unlikely to save a significant number of turns, likely due to availability or some issue with their combat.

Low: Likely to fall short of their potential due to joining too late or being underlevelled, but retain usefulness in certain situations.

Bottom: Unlikely to contribute at all. Join too late with stats too low to salvage.

Top

Vanessa

Franz

High

Ross

Tana

Moulder

Kyle

Forde

Upper Mid

Eirika

Natasha

Tethys

Garcia

Saleh

Artur

Lute

Mid

Gilliam

Joshua

Gerik

L'Arachel

Innes

Dozla

Colm

Neimi

Duessel

Low

Ephraim

Syrene

Rennac

Myrrh

Cormag

Amelia

Bottom

Knoll

Marisa

Ewan

Have at it.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Naglfar

[Tables]

I'd add a tier above top for Seth (banned teir, of course) because it stops people saying he's missing (like I am, now).

[Naglfar]

I think we're fine without that. Why include a unit that doesn't exist?

[General Horace]

Why is Ross higher than Garcia? He takes a long time to get where Garcia is at base, and Garcia stomps the game anyway if he gets Gerik's hero crest. I could see him being above Moulder, because Kyle and Forde are underlevelled, and 5 warp range isn't that impressive.

[Anouleth]

I have to say that Ross' high position also bugs me. Perhaps I'm too used to playing the game properly, but I can't imagine that he is digging himself out of the pit that is Journeyman any time soon. And his stats are pretty meh as well. I guess Garm gives him a lategame niche, but wouldn't a horse just be better?

Ross should be below Garcia, definitely. Compare a 10/16/1 Ross to a 20/1 Garcia. Almost identical. Except Garcia isn't your single worst earlygame character.

I'm not really sure why Knoll is at the bottom. Surely summoning and healing is more useful than whatever the hell Ewan does?

[XiSrOn]

Duessel, Ephraim and Cormag to Mid - their only issue is their availability. None of their combat should be particularly bad even with the late join - the only possiblity is Duessel not having the speed to double at times.

Gerik and Joshua to Upper Mid - they have great offense, their defense isn't amazing, but they can ORKO most things if you keep them at a reasonable level.

Artur and Lute to Mid - never been a fan of non-staff caster pre-promotes in drafts - very weak defense and no staff until promo -

Ross to the middle of Mid - he's a worse Garcia as mentioned above.

[Integrity]

Knoll should be much higher. Instant summon utility is very good for a draft, especially with Warp banned. He made some of my 20 and F clears possible because summons have an almost automatic priority for attackers.

Myrrh is WAY too low. Shame on you, Nags.

Amelia is too high, I think.

Moulder is definitely too high if we assume Warp is banned, and still definitely too high if we assume Warp is allowed. Staff utility before Natasha shows her tits is not precisely at a premium with Eirika's wtf durability.

I have a notion that Tana is too high, but I'll leave that to somebody else because it's not fully formed.

[Naglfar]

Main issue here seems to be Ross and Garcia. My reasoning for Ross's placement is that he gets out of his hole fairly quickly (courtesy of some fed kills, revenants and loldiers) and proceeds to surpass Garcia later on, while also being able to walk over water, which saves lots of turns in C7 and C9 that aren't being saved otherwise unless you have Vanessa. It might also be a boon for C17, not sure there. I suppose he is a bit high, considering his speed especially. More detailed comparisons are necessary.

As for Garcia, I have no idea. But let's focus discussion on these two units first and figure out exactly where to put them. Meanwhile I'll put Ewan at the bottom.

Duessel and Cormag will probably go up because I forgot about the desert. Cormag still costs three turns to recruit, though. Ephraim will probably go below them somewhere.

I know nothing about how Gerik and Joshua perform, I'll have to ask for some comparisons.

My Lute in my current draft is generally confined to potshots and healing. She and Artur could drop. Below Gilliam?

I honestly don't get the whole summoning thing. Either it'll make sense soon or somebody will have to explain it to me.

Myrrh will go up if she stops being disappointing in C18 or something.

Since when was Warp banned in FE8 drafts? I must have been gone too long. Is it banned under the standard rules?

Edited September 15, 2011 by Naglfar

[Integrity]

Warp isn't banned in the Generic Rules. Now that I think about it, the only one I know it was banned in was, coincidentally, the last one I played. :P

Myrrh is C18, provided she gets a single level between C16/17 (which is easy) is damn near 1HKOing anything you put her on. Even if she's not that good, she's still a flying eggslaying cutethingy who gets up to speed REALLY fast.

Here's the thing with summoning: those stupid Phantoms Knoll makes have an INSANELY high enemy targeting priority. If Vanessa carrying Eirika with a Steel Lance and one generic Phantom are both in range of an archer, chances are fairly damn good the archer will hare off after and kill the Phantom. Plus they're chip damage and Knoll himself is chip damage, even if it's piddly.

[Naglfar]

Yeah, I know about the priority thing. I just can't think of any practical applications.

[Integrity]

In the desert, Knoll can shave a turn at least just by existing. The little shits north of Ephraim he can run off and kill while everybody else is busy.

C16, Knoll has little actual use unless you take long enough that enemies start pouring in from the back.

C17 is a Warpskip chapter.

C18 Phantoms are extra flying eggkilling bots while Knoll can kill an egg but likely won't.

C19 is another Warpskip chapter. A Phantom can be used, perhaps, to distract an enemy if your Warped unit will take an EP to kill Riev but that's not likely and I'm just reaching.

C20 there are plenty of nasty archers to chip your fliers and you want whoever fights Morva to be pristine unless it's Innes.

F he might find a little utility eating Shadowshots/Dracozombies, but I'm reaching again.

and Morty Phantoms won't even damage.

I'm not saying, by any stretch, that Knoll is actually notably useful. But what's Marisa doing? Rennac?

[Naglfar]

Well, that's more than Marisa, for sure. Rennac... gets the boots? Is also desert cleanup crew?

[Integrity]

Rennac gets the boots if he's undrafted, remember?

I'd try to bump him a little higher but Low is so fucked up at the moment I can't do anything meaningful. I'd settle for Knoll going bottom of Low and then work on that whole chunk.

[Anouleth]

Yeah, I know about the priority thing. I just can't think of any practical applications.

The simplest example is distracting siege magic (which typically OHKOes Tethys), but any time when a character could die, really. Everyone takes huge damage from lategame magic users. Moreover, they can help with take-dropping, in Chapter 20 or Final or somewhere. Not quite as great as a flier (if Knoll moves 18 spaces in three turns, then summons a 5 move Phantom one space away, that's 24 range, the same as a 8 move flier... except that Knoll can't move over terrain ;/), but still okay. If you don't draw any fliers, then it's better than nothing.

C16, Knoll has little actual use unless you take long enough that enemies start pouring in from the back.

Knoll distracts Msr Purge, who OHKOes Tethys.

C17 is a Warpskip chapter.

Assuming you have warpskippers, of which there are only four viable ones in the game. What's the chances of getting one? Knoll assists, if in nothing else, in rescue-dropping units towards the front.

C20 there are plenty of nasty archers to chip your fliers and you want whoever fights Morva to be pristine unless it's Innes.

Moreover, the Phantom can Take-drop units.

F he might find a little utility eating Shadowshots/Dracozombies, but I'm reaching again.

Why? Shadowshots and Dracozombies hit hard. I would imagine that almost all units are 2HKOed by them. And that's before you get to Lyon and his ridiculous 55 attack.

and Morty Phantoms won't even damage.

If Fomortiis spawns Dracozombies or Gorgons, a way to distract them would be nice. Phantoms also neutralise Fomortiis on enemy phase. Moreover, Knoll can, if nothing else, heal units who have been damaged by Fomortiis' counterattacks.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Anouleth

[Integrity]

Phantoms can take-drop? I never tried 'cause they can't Rescue.

[Naglfar]

Rennac gets the boots. Drafted or not it's a contribution.

I'll finish my current draft before I say anything more on the subject of Knoll. Except, his phantoms will never be your only fliers because Myrrh is free. I can see them potentially saving a turn at C18 though.

[Integrity]

Except if you're using fliers to add to mobility, Myrrh has a whopping FOUR Aid to the Phantoms' 10.

[frat_tastic]

Would a tier gap be appropriate between Lute and Artur? Both have similar offense and durability, but Artur is a level closer to promotion and gets C staves instead of D staves. I don't know if he'll be able to efficiently get to A though.

Also as said before, Amelia is too high.

Although I guess most drafts I see allow you to get the trainees to 10/1 in the tower. Does this list use that rule also?

[Anouleth]

Phantoms can take-drop? I never tried 'cause they can't Rescue.

They can't use the Rescue command, but all other commands associated with Rescuing (take drop give) still work fine. It's a bizarre but fun loophole. I recall once having a Chapter 18 strategy where I had Phantom take-drop a unit then get killed by lava so I could re-summon him somewhere else. Another trick is to put your Phantom that's carrying someone on top of a chain of Peaks, then when he inevitably dies to a light breeze, he drops his cargo on the other side of the Peaks.

It's just as well; since Phantoms lack Canto and usually don't survive more than 1 turn, the Rescue command specifically just wouldn't be very useful for them.

Would a tier gap be appropriate between Lute and Artur? Both have similar offense and durability, but Artur is a level closer to promotion and gets C staves instead of D staves. I don't know if he'll be able to efficiently get to A though.

If Artur can't get to A, nobody but Moulder can. Who has more than C Staves in Chapter 10 or 11? Nobody, basically.

Artur can spam Torch in Chapter 11 for fast WEXP, then when you get the Barrier staff he can switch over to that. There's also Barrier staves and Physic buyable in the Secret Shop. Even on very efficient playthroughs, Artur doesn't have a lot of trouble reaching A Rank, so a draft playthrough which is slower would presumably have even less difficulty.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Anouleth

[Integrity]

Yeah, I just tried the take-drop and confirmed it. Peculiar, to say the least.

[paladin21]

Myrrh should go way higher. She's able to kill almost anyone in the chapter she comes for tons of Exp. After that, she can deal lots of damage to the dracozombies saving you many turns. And she can fly, meaning that terrain is not an issue with her.

Ephraim, even when it's Eirika's route, should go up, since he could have gotten many levels in the two chapters before the path selection if you didn't draft either Kyle or Forde (giving Exp to them is unnecesary, and using the Reginleif is a BIG BONUS), thus becoming strong enough to deal with the enemies around the place he starts at the desert map. After that, he's likely to promote soon and can deal significantly more damage than Eirika.

[Naglfar]

Of what relevance is Myrrh's Aid?

By the way, four viable warpskippers (Moulder, Natasha, L'Arachel, Saleh? Artur could probably be made into one too), four players. To miss out on one would be poor luck, bad drafting, or both. I think it's fair to assume that most of the time you would have picked someone up for the sake of Warp.

I would agree with the Shadowshot-distracting facet of Knoll's F performance, but I was pretty sure the dragons aren't that hard to just walk past. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong. At the very least, Warp exists.

Now go pick some guys for my FE1 thread :(

[Integrity]

Actually Myrrh has kinda mediocre offense in C16 due to not getting effective MT against anything. Plus, it's a fast chapter.

That said, what about just removing the twins/Myrrh from the list? Orson's not there, and if this is a Draft Tier List I presume we should be ranking by how worthwhile a unit is as a draftee, and the description seems to agree.

EDIT: Myrrh's Aid is relevant because without Aid you can't take-drop. If Anouleth is holding that as one of the Phantoms' advantages, Myrrh cannot claim the same.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Integrity

[Anouleth]

Myrrh is frequently doubled in her starting chapter, and while her defense is good, her HP is abysmal. Go compare her stats to the Cavalier reinforcements. It's not pretty, I think the GKs actually ORKO her. I can't imagine why anyone would choose to give those reinforcements to Myrrh who can barely kill them, as opposed to Ephraim who gets a mount and has just as good offense, if not outright better,

[Naglfar]

Huh, I did place the trainees with the 10/1 rule in mind but I don't think it was made standard. Can we make it standard, Int?

Myrrh has the glaring problems of 15 base HP and 5 base speed that stop her from doing much for a while. Ephraim suffers from bad availability and not much opportunity to contribute. He gets to 20 before promotion, or at least close, even if you did draft one of his cavaliers anyway.

It's a tier list, not a "who's best to draft" list, which is why Myrrh and the twins are there. I kinda forgot Orson and I'm not sure where he would go.

probably mid somewhere because he saves an assload of turns in 5x

Edited September 15, 2011 by Naglfar