Mechanics that you want

[bottlegnomes]

My $0.02:

H5>>>HHM

Granted, I only played it once and didn't use reclassing, Wolf and Sedgar, or warp skipping, but Marcus pretty much single-handedly trivializes HHM until about chapter 20. And even after that, he's still one hell of a unit. It's just now there are actually other people who are on par with him.

And yes, Marcus having 10 def is better than Wolf and Sedgar having 15. H5 enemies hit about 10x as hard as HHM enemies.

[Rewjeo]

Yeah, but the point of creating a Hard Mode isn't supposed to be interesting for the creator, it's supposed to be interesting for the player.

And, indeed, I believe that was the point. I was not saying that said method was more interesting while creating, although I see how what I said could be interpreted that way. I'm not quite sure why it would be, though. Given the nature of this topic, it should be fairly obvious that all suggestions would be to make the game more fun to play.

[Colonel M]

Stuck at 12 speed for half the game? Olol

More like his 5 Movement restricts him more than his 12 Speed. His 12 Speed doubles things for the most part. Obviously some unpromoted enemies are exceptions, as well as promoted enemies, but they're so rare they're almost irrelevant to the equation.

Wait, so Marcus and Sain with 10 base defense have "good defense", but Wolf and Sedgar with 15 base defense need plenty of training to be durable? Furthermore, FE7 has Lowen as far as mobile tanks go. And... uh... Farina?

First off, Sain doesn't have 10 base defense. His base defense is 6, and promoted becomes 8.

Secondly, compare Marcus's enemies to H5's enemies. Marcus faces Brigands, but their accuracy after WTA is so piss low that getting hit by them is almost a challenge. Marcus and Sain have the major perk of weapon triangle control. Forget Defense, you barely need it unless you're facing multiple weapon factions at once or you're blindly charging in like an idiot.

Look at Sedgar and Wolf. They have 4 AS (3 for Sedgar, oh snake!), which means every unit not named an Armor Knight doubles them. 28 HP | 15 Def only does so much. Take the Cavaliers that have 22 Atk. They do 14 damage a round, which 2RKOes Sedgar. Hey, you see the major difference here? Marcus isn't two round koed by normal enemies. Good freaking lord.

Chapter 6X? Look at this shit, the enemies have 22 Atk (20 is the bar minimum, but IIRC it's rare), and one Mercenary has an Armorslayer. These guys are constantly 2RKOed as well. The only enemies that fail to are like... Mercenaries... and Archers and Mages still dent. If Sedgar doesn't proc Spd (very likely, he has a 60% growth as a General), he gets doubled by the Fire Mage, which results in... a ORKO without Pure Water / Barrier. Iron Bows barely dent them, but the Steel Bow Archers still do 8 damage. It's still noticeable when getting ganged up by enemies.

Come on, Sedgar and Wolf only get "good" in one chapter - Chapter 8. Why do they get good? Interceptor's clever strategy of Warping one of them on a fort, and even then they have to have a bit of Defense to take on the enemies while on the fort. Sedgar and Wolf are not good "right out of the box". Actually, I'd argue they're mediocre-to-terrible. If you're saying Sedgar and Wolf's 15 Defense is good "right from the get-go", then I highly question if you ever touched H5.

Edited December 12, 2011 by Colonel M

[Momo]

I wouldn't say they're terrible at the start, just underwhelming. Being two rounded means their defense is on par with everyone else's.

Also, I found the easiest way to train one of them (or maybe both but it'd be slower) was to just give them vulneraries and have them fight the archers on the bottom left of the 6x map. They won't be helping much, but they can just keep to themselves without messing things up for everyone. That'll give them the level they oh so desperately need, and then the rest is a lot smoother.

[grandjackal]

I'm surprised no one pointed out that 6 move in a game where you can still be good with a mount is still underwhelming. Really, arguing them as generals isn't that hot an idea anymore. I thought we all started to agree that Hero is the better choice for them.

Not that it changes the fact they're still terrible at the start.

[Thor Odinson]

Also, I found the easiest way to train one of them (or maybe both but it'd be slower) was to just give them vulneraries and have them fight the archers on the bottom left of the 6x map. They won't be helping much, but they can just keep to themselves without messing things up for everyone. That'll give them the level they oh so desperately need, and then the rest is a lot smoother.

I thought Sedgar and Wolf, being prepromotes, would not really get much in the way of levels off some low-level archers in one chapter anyway. Found the C8 Horsemen a lot better for training them: low damage, already promoted. Exp get.

[Anouleth]

Your colour tags are completely screwed up btw.

Is someone seriously implying that H5 is harder than HHM? The game with Wolf and Sedgar (let's not act like two units with 15 base defense by Ch 6 isn't ridiculous)?

This is ignoring the fact that H5 actually hands you several 7-use Warp Staffs which a unit joining in Chapter 3 can use without any training.

Yeah, I'm not going to deny that Warp is absolutely game-breaking and should have been removed from higher difficulties. However, that has no impact on the present issue: that buffing enemy stats can be the main way in which HM increases difficulty.

There are no restrictions, so yeah, you are free to boss abuse and trivialise the game. Good thing increased throne healing bonuses make boss abuse even easier!

You mean "takes less time". Just because it's quicker doesn't mean it's easier.

Stuck at 12 speed for half the game? Olol

Funnily enough, even 12 speed is enough to double many of the enemies in Chapter 28x, getting all the magic users, unpromoted Wyverns and Archer, and many of the Pirates. So... yeah, you totally can use Hector in the second half of the game.

Marcus has 10 base defense and a 15% growth rate. At level 20 he has less defense than Wolf and Sedgar do at their base level.

Yet Marcus is still a highly durable unit and remains durable until quite late in the game. I suppose he's partially reliant on the early dracoshield, but there is no early dracoshield in FESD...

If you promote Sain at the end of Lyn's mode he will also have about 10 base defense and only a 20% growth. Hawkeye joins halfway through the game with 14 base defense and yet again, a 20% growth.

Yet these characters also have the benefits of avoid. Marcus can easily reduce enemies to about ~30 display hit, more if he gets his supports. Sain is even dodgier and has better concrete durability. Hawkeye can stand on a Peak in numerous chapters and be virtually indestructible with an enormous 80AVO (as if getting like 8HKOed wasn't good enough).

Wait, so Marcus and Sain with 10 base defense have "good defense", but Wolf and Sedgar with 15 base defense need plenty of training to be durable? Furthermore, FE7 has Lowen as far as mobile tanks go. And... uh... Farina?

Marcus and Sain get WTA, fight weaker enemies, have better avoid, and don't ever get doubled.

Here's the catch: You've only got one Oswin; there's two of Wolf and Sedgar.

You also get a Marcus, who in this chapter is even more durable than Oswin due to having WTA on everything while Oswin usually faces WTD. 35HP/10DEF is going to get 7HKOed by those Brigands, and at lower hit too.

You're talking about people at max level here. Lowen's defenses only become good halfway through the game; Heath doesn't even join until halfway through the game and he comes underleveled; Wallace even being recruitable pretty much means you have to promote him in Lyn's Mode, which if we're using the Knight Crest on Sain that isn't happening; Vaida's around for a whopping three levels; Hector hits 18 defense at level 20 and then remains at that 18 defense for another ten or so chapters; and Harken once again joins with only a handful of chapters left to use him.

And when Wolf and Sedgar join, they're shit, with horrible bases. Even as General, their only notable stat is defense: they lag behind due to movement and their offense sucks. Sedgar in particular faces critical chances from everything.

Moreover, I've already mentioned three high defense characters that join early: Hector, Oswin, and Marcus. As Hector and Marcus fall behind, these other characters become good and step up. Not that Hector ever really falls behind, either. With A Eliwood, Hector is getting like, 9HKOed by Chapter 28x Wyvern Riders at 30 display hit.

Wolf and Sedgar join at the beginning of the game, have amazing defense at base level, and only get even tankier as time goes on because their growths are so obscene. And we haven't even begun on Barst here... And it's not like FESD doesn't have its share of dodge-fiends as well. There's Caeda, who has obscene speed and luck as well as defense that is higher than Sain's. And furthermore, while there are two Dracoshields in HHM, FESD gives you five, as well as an additional five Seraph Robes.

lolCaeda

Max level Shiida has 38 avoid. The least accurate enemies in Final (excluding siege tomes and ballista) have 115 hit. So she faces like, 77 avoid. soooooooo impressive. Base level Hawkeye has better avoid than max level Shiida. And Shiida has the best avoid in the entire game. Sure, she has 0.2 less defense than Sain, but she's also weak to bow users which are everywhere, has less resistance, has less avoid, and has 15 less HP. And also is just in a game where enemies hit harder in general, and gets inferior support bonuses.

And those Seraph Robes and Dracoshields are available in... the second last chapter of the game. To think that earlier, you were complaining that my examples came too late in the game.

Also, there are typically a lot less enemies in FESD per map than in HHM. According to the Chapter Data on Serenes, the average later-level FESD Chapter has around 20 enemies; the Final Chapter has a whopping 27. There's no similar data for HHM but some of the later-level chapters have twice that number of units, plus obscene amounts of reinforcements (Victory or Death, Cog of Destiny). So enemies in H5 may do more damage but they're easier to draw out in small numbers instead of taking them on in groups; HHM offers you a constant bombardment of enemies.

But enemies in FESD usually come in one clump, while HHM likes to sprinkle them over the map. So really, it's the other way around.

And really, it doesn't matter. All we've established is that if you're willing to turtle up and abuse supports and armoured units, you can trivialise the game. And that applies to both games. L12 Hawkeye on a Peak has 54HP, 17DEF, and 82AVO as well as WTA against most enemies. He is if anything, less likely to die than that 30DEF Barst in Final (Barst gets ORKOed by Mage Dragons and Bishops/Fire Dragons 2RKO him).

[Momo]

I thought Sedgar and Wolf, being prepromotes, would not really get much in the way of levels off some low-level archers in one chapter anyway. Found the C8 Horsemen a lot better for training them: low damage, already promoted. Exp get.

The EXP formula is different, and they end up getting significant amounts for even just chipping. Since it takes them a good while to actually kill the archers, they might get a level out of it.

[Thor Odinson]

IDK, first time I played H5 or so back in my noob days, I tried training these fucks and it took me forever to get them at most one level until C8.

[eclipse]

Fastest way to train them, IMO, is to reclass one to Sorcerer and staffbot him until he's close to gaining a level.

[General Banzai]

Now let us shut up with all the "You haven't even played H5 I bet!"

I'm surprised no one pointed out that 6 move in a game where you can still be good with a mount is still underwhelming. Really, arguing them as generals isn't that hot an idea anymore. I thought we all started to agree that Hero is the better choice for them.

Not that it changes the fact they're still terrible at the start.

This quote also signifies that we've completely lost sight of the original argument--movement has never been a factor in any of these arguments and for a specific reason: I'm arguing that in a game with absolutely no incentive for you to move fast, there is absolutely no reason for you to move fast. This got into a discussion about the ease of turtling in H5 and HHM, and now piranhas are leaping into the discussion forgetting the original point and bringing in utterly irrelevant details.

Edited December 12, 2011 by General Banzai

[Colonel M]

We haven't "quite" lost sight of the argument here, or at least I haven't (and I don't think Anouleth has either). You're attempting to justify a good Hard Mode. I'm stating that HHM, and ESPECIALLY POR HARD MODE, were poorly designed shells of plastic. The only thing that gave HHM any semblance of a decent difficult was rankings, and even then rankings weren't very difficult once you figured everything out. The key involves knowing how to trade turncounts for experience, and vice versa. You can either make the EXP up in earlygame and turns lategame, or turns earlygame and EXP lategame.

PoR didn't introduce anything clever in its Hard Mode. The enemies, from what I recall, are barely "buffed" as is and there aren't any more. It's just like any other Hard Mode from Fire Emblem... except easier.

Yes, in a sense, H5 was still a joke, but being because of Sedgar and Wolf is far from the correct answer. They're somewhere in the ballpark, but they're either left field or right field. The home run here involves Warp. Warp staff completely takes the entire game's difficulty and snaps it in half. As I already stated in an analysis, Sedgar and Wolf can't break the game until later, and if we really want to get picky, any unit can break the game with a little boss abuse and growth rigs. If we're allowing turtling here, I see no reason to exclude boss abuse and growth rigging either, since all three fall under "wasting precious time that I could've spent with my girlfriend" category.

Actually, the saddest thing of all is, despite the broken growth units Sedgar and Wolf, their entire potential is robbed from them by Warp Staves. This is why bros like Wendell win the game; not Sedgar and Wolf.

Which is why I stated, if you want an actual Hard Mode fashioned out of something, make it as close to FE12 as possible, with minor exceptions perhaps. The game made you think very differently from its Normal Mode concept (especially in Lunatic), it punished both rushing and turtling, and it made you have to think clearer on unit choices. It emphasized how to spend money wisely and what forges to make, where to put stat boosters, and what classes were best filled with each character in the chapter. The only difference is I'd put in a few more "failsafes" further in the game than what FE12 did. In example, Astram would be a lot tougher of a unit than what he is.

Now let us shut up with all the "You haven't even played H5 I bet!"

Hey man, for all I know, you could've had your buddy beat it for you and used the snapshot from him. I mean, you nearly argued how useful Wolf and Sedgar were right at the bat...

Actually, forget "nearly", you "did" but it got shut down faster than Herman Cain's final speech with regards to a poor Pokemon Movie quote.

Anyway, moving on to more relevant and logical things...

I thought we all started to agree that Hero is the better choice for them.

No, we never completely agreed on that. Remember, Hero doesn't have that many perks above General at times, and lacking a 2 range weapon still sucks for them. It's almost better to be something like Warrior. Sedgar and Wolf are odd ducks anyway, so building them is between a meesh of classes until around Chapter 8, when General takes part of the spotlight, and then after that Hero sort of settles into its place.

Edited December 12, 2011 by Colonel M

[Rewjeo]

I feel like both methods should be employed. HHM used methods that I think make for a more interesting game, but had the problem of enemies being so weak it wasn't worth it. Buff the enemies, and there you go. I think FE5 made for the most interesting difficulty, myself, by putting you in unique situations you never had to deal with other places in FE.

[General Banzai]

I feel like both methods should be employed. HHM used methods that I think make for a more interesting game, but had the problem of enemies being so weak it wasn't worth it. Buff the enemies, and there you go. I think FE5 made for the most interesting difficulty, myself, by putting you in unique situations you never had to deal with other places in FE.

Thracia's game mechanics just ought to be duplicated. Capturing and fatigue should be considered staple series mechanics.

I mean, when it comes to gameplay, Thracia did everything better than any other game in the series.

[Anouleth]

Thracia's game mechanics just ought to be duplicated. Capturing and fatigue should be considered staple series mechanics.

I mean, when it comes to gameplay, Thracia did everything better than any other game in the series.

I disagree.

[Snowy_One]

Wow. I seem to have become a relic in my own suggestion. Ah well... *wonders if he should start acting like a old man*

Being a person who has played (well, still plays) WoW, I barely understand what you're getting at.

First off, WoW and this game are pretty damn different. In WoW, everyone moves roughly at the same speed and they're forced to wait for a tank in dungeons because its the most efficient way with dealing enemies. Granted, tank has to keep pulling (especially when DKs come into play), but the thing is the enemies and you move at the same time.

In Fire Emblem, the issue is you have a Player and Enemy Phase. Both sides cannot move at the same time unless they are attacked. This alone makes your comparison difficult. Either way...

Of course they are different. I used the WoW example to show that it is possible to make a game harder that doesn't simply rely on increasing the stats of the involved parties. In FFX, I have a party with maxed stats, but they can still be felled by a Malboro ambush and that doesn't relate to stats either. Granted, it's a cheap way to win (bad breath confusion) and I wouldn't want that in any game, let alone a FE game where characters die forever, but it is part of making a game truly difficult (as opposed to 'if you mess up once the enemy pummels your face in' difficult).

[Anouleth]

Wow. I seem to have become a relic in my own suggestion. Ah well... *wonders if he should start acting like a old man*

Of course they are different. I used the WoW example to show that it is possible to make a game harder that doesn't simply rely on increasing the stats of the involved parties.

Um, but your example was an example of a game becoming harder because of... increasing the enemy stats (I assume you're talking about the boss where the health of his minions was increased).

[Snowy_One]

But it wasn't the increase in stats, it was the fact that the minions were not as easy to control combined with the fires which had to be controlled in addition to the minions. It wasn't their damage, it wasn't even really their health, it was the increase in difficulty in regards to control that made the fight harder. The boss didn't start suddenly hitting for loads of damage or anything, the fight just became harder to keep control over.

[arvilino]

But it wasn't the increase in stats, it was the fact that the minions were not as easy to control combined with the fires which had to be controlled in addition to the minions. It wasn't their damage, it wasn't even really their health, it was the increase in difficulty in regards to control that made the fight harder. The boss didn't start suddenly hitting for loads of damage or anything, the fight just became harder to keep control over.

Because their stats, specifically HP were higher. It's harder to control the minions because they can't be taken down as easily anymore due to stat buffs which at a certain threshold dictates what tactics no longer work and which ones do.

I mean if their stats didn't change at all. Would you still be able to say they were more difficult to control?

Edited December 12, 2011 by arvilino

[Othin]

Some stat changes have substantial impact on strategy. Some don't.

[Dark Sage]

Now let us shut up with all the "You haven't even played H5 I bet!"

No one said otherwise.

This quote also signifies that we've completely lost sight of the original argument--movement has never been a factor in any of these arguments and for a specific reason: I'm arguing that in a game with absolutely no incentive for you to move fast, there is absolutely no reason for you to move fast. This got into a discussion about the ease of turtling in H5 and HHM, and now piranhas are leaping into the discussion forgetting the original point and bringing in utterly irrelevant details.

But every game is easy if you turtle which is why your argument doesn't work. The only game in which turtling does not make things easy is, you guessed it, FE12 H3.

Thracia's game mechanics just ought to be duplicated. Capturing and fatigue should be considered staple series mechanics.

I mean, when it comes to gameplay, Thracia did everything better than any other game in the series.

That's just your opinion and it's hardly fact.

[Colonel M]

Thracia still had warp, so its still very poor by design. Well, abuses with Warp thanks to their numbers and Hammerne.

Some stat changes have substantial impact on strategy. Some don't.

Right. H5 made impact on strategy on impact. HHM didn't.

[riariadne]

Random thought: I wouldn't like to see an Iote's Shield equivalent in this game- or at least not one that can be obtained by the player. Fliers are great as it is- they certainly don't really need any extra help in the form of nullifying something potentially threatening (read: bows).

[General Banzai]

Random thought: I wouldn't like to see an Iote's Shield equivalent in this game- or at least not one that can be obtained by the player. Fliers are great as it is- they certainly don't really need any extra help in the form of nullifying something potentially threatening (read: bows).

Typically you only get one and you don't get them until near the end of the game. They're not really all that game-breaking.

[Rewjeo]

While I agree that capturing and fatigue are great mechanics, I know lots of other people disagree, so especially fatigue probably shouldn't be in FE. Also, with gaming's move towards a more "casual" audience, I doubt we'd see spikes in difficulty across the whole game. Actually, I think fatigue/no money/etc. being ways to increase difficulty could be very interesting.