Mechanics that you want

[Othin]

Okay, now we know how the word is spelled. Can we move on?

[Snowy_One]

A large part of proper story-telling is in the world and how it is defined. For example, LoZ. You are stuck in a world with very little beauty. It only takes a moment to look up at the mountains to realize that this is a destroyed world. There are still people within it, but there is almost nothing in the wilds that isn't trying to kill you (fairies aside). Metroid has you alone on a world full of strange lifeforms, some of which are benign for the most part, others are openly hostile towards you. You are put into the world with the simple goal of survival. The monsters are strong and rough, but you can beat them. Mario sticks you in a world that is bright and fairly colorful, almost sort of happy. You can tell it isn't a desolate land. Many of the enemies aren't terribly hostile towards you either. Goomba's and koopas will hurt you, but they don't openly charge towards you and launch attacks to kill you.

It's a simple thing, you probably don't even notice it, but it builds the world up. Hyrule feels like a desolated land, Metroid feels alien and that you have to survive on skill, Mario feels like a fairly prosperous kingdom that's fallen on hard times. Even simply switching the lighting from night to day on the same level can entirely alter the mood and how you feel about the world.

Anyways, I personally feel that the biggest story-telling in FE is not the main story, but rather all the little sidestories that happen with all the other characters. It does feel like a real, solid, team of actual people (well, moreso than in most other games). Maybe give them some more center-staging? Like, say, gaiden chapters where you can deal with their own individual points (at least some of them) would probably help fill them out greatly.

[Momo]

Why do you feel the need to be pedantic? Why does me spelling the word wrong, as long as it is not mistaken for some other word or random gibberish, have ANY impact on my argument? What, does spelling non sequitur wrong display a fundamental lack of knowledge on the word?

Ok, how about you actually read the post. Right before I said that, both Banzai and I agreed that writing and storytelling are not the same thing. You even bolded the part where I specifically said "Storytelling".

Edited January 26, 2012 by Momo

[bottlegnomes]

Indeed, there are games with bad gameplay. But based on your original point, you were saying that bad gameplay might be a result when focusing too much on story. Tell me: Do you know of that ever happening? Do you know of a game that failed because of gameplay being sacrificed for the sake of a good story to the point that it ruined peoples' ability to appreciate that story?

Technically my initial point was focusing on gameplay was more important than focusing on story because people will deal with a bad story, but not bad gameplay.

Crisis Core generally received average, at best, reviews. The reviewers points were generally that the story was quite good, and especially good if you are a FF7 fan, but the gameplay was serviceable and the only reason to play it would be for the story. So how well it did was hurt because of its focus on story instead of gameplay, since really all it was was a cash in on Zack and FF7 lore. Now take Infinite Undiscovery. It received generally good reviews. There the complaint was largely that the story was a mediocre ball of cliche, but it was still worth playing just for the gameplay. I know this is just taking reviews into account, but I can't exactly poll the entire vg population, and I'd like to have a little faith that reviews do know what they're talking about. Anyway, this is mediocre gameplay and good story vs mediocre story and good gameplay instead of great story and terrible gameplay vs great gameplay and terrible story, but it's pretty much the same situation.

There's a bit more to Olimar than that. I'm curious what anyone who feels they have indeed played both Pikmin games enough to judge might have to say about that; I didn't intent the point to be directed at you specifically.

I know, just felt the need to respond to that for some reason.

[The Awesomest]

You know, I think it would be interesting if there were items that worked like Fairies in Zelda or Life Shrooms in Paper Mario, when if your character hits 0 hp, they'll come back to life with a limited amount of health. They would be super-rare, of course.

EDIT Oh, I'm Ike now! Goodbye, Ilyana :(

Edited January 27, 2012 by The Awesomest

[General Banzai]

Okay.

1. We can't talk about Olimar here. Olimar deserves his own 20 page essay to really do justice to what is going on in the Pikmin series. I wouldn't even know where to begin with Olimar.

2. Crisis Core. You can't take any mainstream critic's analysis of a video game plot seriously at all. Especially in regards to JRPGs. In my original post I said that part of the problem with the industry today is the lack of any CREDIBLE reviewing outlet which actually critiques the games they review rather than slapping ready-made number-based scores which typically say more about the prestige and hype surrounding the game than anything else.

3. The atmospheric qualities of Zelda and Metroid are part of their appeal, yes, but by no means all of it. Atmosphere is one of the authorial components which impress upon the player, although typically through a much more subtle form than cutscenes, as the player still has control even while under the atmosphere's exertion. Some people have seemed to take my words as saying that there should be as little authorial imput as possible, but that's not the case. The author has a variety of tools at his disposal to influence the way the player thinks or feels when playing the game.

A book or a movie exist in a finished state, with or without somebody to read or watch them. A video game, by comparison, is simply a long series of things programmed to happen based on player actions. Without a player a game does not exist. But without an author a video game wouldn't exist either; and so a video game in a completed state is a symbiosis between player and creator. Both elements must thus remain in the equation. Sandbox games, I argue, are just as bad as rail shooters and run-down-a-hallway-see-a-cutscene RPGs. Finding a balance between the two components becomes necessary to pull off a truly successful story in a video game.

This is why we can't talk about Olimar here, for there are in truth two Olimars, which combine to form one character who is greater than either half-Olimar.

[bottlegnomes]

2. Crisis Core. You can't take any mainstream critic's analysis of a video game plot seriously at all. Especially in regards to JRPGs. In my original post I said that part of the problem with the industry today is the lack of any CREDIBLE reviewing outlet which actually critiques the games they review rather than slapping ready-made number-based scores which typically say more about the prestige and hype surrounding the game than anything else.

I disagree. The reviewers focus on what makes a game enjoyable and give it a rating because that's what people see first and often times people won't read an entire review; they'll just look at the score. Crisis Core had a fair bit of hype around it, not a ton, so you can't really say it didn't live up to the hype and that's why it got low scores.

3. The atmospheric qualities of Zelda and Metroid are part of their appeal, yes, but by no means all of it. Atmosphere is one of the authorial components which impress upon the player, although typically through a much more subtle form than cutscenes, as the player still has control even while under the atmosphere's exertion. Some people have seemed to take my words as saying that there should be as little authorial imput as possible, but that's not the case. The author has a variety of tools at his disposal to influence the way the player thinks or feels when playing the game.

If this isn't directed at me, disregard. I don't think you said minimal author input. From what you said, I got the sense that you wanted the author to make a story but leave the gameplay open enough that the player very well won't know what to do, which was the issue I had. That's fine in adventure game, since they're all about exploration, but I think in other genre it wouldn't work because that's not the intent of the game.

A book or a movie exist in a finished state, with or without somebody to read or watch them. A video game, by comparison, is simply a long series of things programmed to happen based on player actions. Without a player a game does not exist. But without an author a video game wouldn't exist either; and so a video game in a completed state is a symbiosis between player and creator. Both elements must thus remain in the equation. Sandbox games, I argue, are just as bad as rail shooters and run-down-a-hallway-see-a-cutscene RPGs. Finding a balance between the two components becomes necessary to pull off a truly successful story in a video game.

If a sandbox game has a defined goal, but allows the player to explore at leisure, it's pretty much the same thing you said you liked about LoZ. Now if there is no purpose and it's just a do-whatever-you-want, then I could see your issue with it, since there's really no story. However, that brings up the whole idea of defining your own story. But that's something different altogether and could be attributed to laziness on the writer's part, though it could also be the writers' intent.

[Othin]

Sandbox games, I argue, are just as bad as rail shooters and run-down-a-hallway-see-a-cutscene RPGs. Finding a balance between the two components becomes necessary to pull off a truly successful story in a video game.

Where would you say games like the Elder Scrolls series fit into this? I know I remember you complaining about them before, but they seemed to fit into the praise you were giving to games like LoZ. If they don't, where do you draw the line?

Do note that I say this having not actually played any of the series besides perhaps a few minutes of Oblivion.

[dondon151]

That simply isn't true anyway, since games like Chrono Trigger have existed for decades.

I would hardly qualify Chrono Trigger's storytelling as having a significant amount of showing compared to telling. There's only so much that can be conveyed through jumping and falling sprites (and mega-surprised faces).

Furthermore, the premise of Chrono Trigger itself provides a good platform for showing instead of telling.

Edited January 27, 2012 by dondon151

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Enough with the off-topic discussion.

At least the previous 4 posts have been derailing and there's been off-topic posts now and then. Next time, this thread will be closed.

[General Banzai]

Oh boy, Big Admin Killjoy here to stomp out our fun.

Then I'll bring our discussion back to its application to the Fire Emblem series, and specifically objective concealment. People expressed dissatisfaction at not having objectives; perhaps we could reach a compromise. Maybe there's one objective which is always obvious: Route all the enemies. I mean, pretty clearly if you kill all the enemies the battle will end. But maybe there are many maps where routing all the enemies is much more difficult than usual; either there are super powerful enemies, or unending torrents of reinforcements, or some other aspect of the map which would make ending the fight by such conventional means nigh impossible. Perhaps, however, there are one, two, maybe even several secondary objectives unknown to the player which the player can infer based on textual clues (clues, I say--not "Hey Look Listen!" obviousness) or perhaps just common sense. Say there's a map where the enemy commander is incredibly cruel (Gheb, for example). Since the commander's soldiers are all in fear of their life and serve the commander only out of fear, the player may realize that killing the commander would end the fight.

I feel this would not only add a new component to the "strategic" part of the game, but also merge better the "story" and "gameplay" elements and give the player the opportunity to add their own experimentation and decisions into the story.

[Anouleth]

I always thought that super-powerful enemies was a really cheap thing. One thing that's cool about Fire Emblem is that you can always "win". The game never does something unfair like put a 20/20 enemy in the first few chapters to try and block off certain areas. Other JRPGs seem to fucking fall over themselves to throw unwinnable boss fights at you (Xenoblade in particular is a really big cocktease and will constantly interrupt boss fights that you're not supposed to win yet). Even when you fight Julius in FE4, you can still win, it's just really hard to.

Although I suppose that by making it so that Julius just "retreats", that's still kind of cheating. If you can beat him in combat early, why shouldn't you get to complete the game early huh?

[dondon151]

Then I'll bring our discussion back to its application to the Fire Emblem series, and specifically objective concealment.

Concealing valuable information like this is one of my huge pet peeves in video games. A serious player would just look up this information, and the end result of the concealment is nullified. A casual player that misses out on an easier objective would just waste his time.

To me, wasting one's time playing video games because the game intentionally hides such valuable information is a terrible feeling. Partially it's because the intrinsic nature of video gaming is a waste of time, and I don't want to be wasting my time in wasting my time. (Before anyone brings up my stance on growth rates, that's not valuable information).

People expressed dissatisfaction at not having objectives; perhaps we could reach a compromise. Maybe there's one objective which is always obvious: Route all the enemies. I mean, pretty clearly if you kill all the enemies the battle will end.

It's fine to have "rout enemy" as a secondary objective that generally always works, but most conflicts in reality don't end with one side completely annihilating the other. I don't think that it's a good idea to have the actual objective be the hidden secondary objective.

Edited January 27, 2012 by dondon151

[Othin]

I always thought that super-powerful enemies was a really cheap thing. One thing that's cool about Fire Emblem is that you can always "win". The game never does something unfair like put a 20/20 enemy in the first few chapters to try and block off certain areas. Other JRPGs seem to fucking fall over themselves to throw unwinnable boss fights at you (Xenoblade in particular is a really big cocktease and will constantly interrupt boss fights that you're not supposed to win yet). Even when you fight Julius in FE4, you can still win, it's just really hard to.

Although I suppose that by making it so that Julius just "retreats", that's still kind of cheating. If you can beat him in combat early, why shouldn't you get to complete the game early huh?

It doesn't have to be as simple as being unwinnable - the effect of that would be no better than not having the option at all. Having unusually tough enemies that are still beatable, however - if you're willing to play slowly and carefully - would be another story. Meanwhile, alternative options can exist.

Berwick Saga managed this sort of secondary objective a few times, such as in Exile Island: a night map with a number of powerful enemies. The simple objective is seizing the temple within 20 turns, but if you just try to rush forward to do it, it's not going to be easy. Two ballistas have range covering most of the map between them, and have huge power and high accuracy, to the point where they will OHKO mages and healers. You can't do anything about them initially, so instead, you want to take advantage of the fact that FoW applies to enemies as well, killing enemies as soon as you get near them or keeping weaker characters back to keep the ballistas from being able to target any characters unable to take the hits. There's also a lighthouse an enemy controls a bit off to the side, extending his vision, so you want to get rid of him, as well. Could you just rush towards the temple? I'm sure it's doable. I used a strategy something like that on a trial run of the map and managed to seize right before time was up, albeit while losing 6 of the 9 characters I had brought.

This is just one example of the sort of way these secondary objectives can happen while being possible. Because as dondon said, conflicts don't usually end with one side annihilating the other. It tends to work out that way because of how lopsided the battles tend to be, but it doesn't have to be; there are plenty of tools the enemies can use.

Concealing valuable information like this is one of my huge pet peeves in video games. A serious player would just look up this information, and the end result of the concealment is nullified. A casual player that misses out on an easier objective would just waste his time.

Having puzzles is one of my huge pet peeves in video games. A serious player would just look up the information, and the end result of the puzzle is nullified. A casual player that has to actually think about what the game shows you in order to figure out the puzzle would just waste his time.

---

Personally, I was enjoying that broader discussion. I'd support just moving it to a different thread, personally; just because Mr. Moderator failed to show the proper respect for our discussion to suggest it doesn't mean we can't do it, if anyone else is interested.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Othin

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Oh boy, Big Admin Killjoy here to stomp out our fun.

Sure, why not?

Personally, I was enjoying that broader discussion. I'd support just moving it to a different thread, personally;

Which is the right thing to do.

just because Mr. Moderator failed to show the proper respect for our discussion to suggest it doesn't mean we can't do it, if anyone else is interested.

Oh? You mean like how you failed to show some self-control (and respect for the code of conduct) and follow a particular rule that says "Do not derail" threads in order to keep discussion where it belongs? There's nothing in the rules against creating a new thread in the proper section to continue an intriguing discussion. If you believe that a moderator enforcing that rule like he's supposed means something along the lines of "Your discussion is just plain stupid and if it continues I will close this thread and warn each of you for being lame" then perhaps you're a rather sensitive fellow who did not put much thought into that comment and didn't even consider alternative measures to resume this discussion you evidently wish to keep.

Seeing as how the off-topic discussion involved games in general, I believe the perfect forum for such a discussion can be found in the "Other Games" subforum found in the "General Forums" category seen in the forum index.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Big Admin Killjoy

[Snowy_One]

Maybe have some truly difficult objectives like 'steal the pants off all the enemy soldiers you can' Errr... Ummm... 'Steal 10 items in the level', 'don't use any fliers' on a uphill battle, 'defeat boss using only mages', 'unit X has lowest kill total' (apply to a jiegan. For extra fun, make sure there is a healer on the team that hasn't promoted). Possibly even an achievement or something for completing all secondary objectives and/or playing through while using all/no units of a certain class.

[Original Alear]

I always thought that super-powerful enemies was a really cheap thing. One thing that's cool about Fire Emblem is that you can always "win". The game never does something unfair like put a 20/20 enemy in the first few chapters to try and block off certain areas. Other JRPGs seem to fucking fall over themselves to throw unwinnable boss fights at you (Xenoblade in particular is a really big cocktease and will constantly interrupt boss fights that you're not supposed to win yet). Even when you fight Julius in FE4, you can still win, it's just really hard to.

Although I suppose that by making it so that Julius just "retreats", that's still kind of cheating. If you can beat him in combat early, why shouldn't you get to complete the game early huh?

Well there's the BK in FE9...

Possibly even an achievement or something for completing all secondary objectives and/or playing through while using all/no units of a certain class.

Even better than an achievement, gaiden chapters.

[Griffen78]

Maybe have some truly difficult objectives like 'steal the pants off all the enemy soldiers you can' Errr... Ummm... 'Steal 10 items in the level', 'don't use any fliers' on a uphill battle, 'defeat boss using only mages', 'unit X has lowest kill total' (apply to a jiegan. For extra fun, make sure there is a healer on the team that hasn't promoted). Possibly even an achievement or something for completing all secondary objectives and/or playing through while using all/no units of a certain class.

those sound like bonus exp objectives or side quest objectives. Side quests would be cool, but if this game is like FE8 we don't really need Bexp...

[Snowy_One]

Well there's the BK in FE9...

Even better than an achievement, gaiden chapters.

The thing I like about achievements is that they are, technically, optional in every sense of the word. At no point are you required to delay yourself stealing, or make a huge risk trying to beat a chapter fast, or anything. Yet there is an incentive to do so at least once. Maybe you don't have to find every treasure on every playthrough, but you will want to do so at least once. A gaiden chapter just isn't the same.

those sound like bonus exp objectives or side quest objectives. Side quests would be cool, but if this game is like FE8 we don't really need Bexp...

I just generally want to encourage people to try playing in new manners/ways that they might have otherwise ignored.

[bottlegnomes]

The thing I like about achievements is that they are, technically, optional in every sense of the word. At no point are you required to delay yourself stealing, or make a huge risk trying to beat a chapter fast, or anything. Yet there is an incentive to do so at least once. Maybe you don't have to find every treasure on every playthrough, but you will want to do so at least once. A gaiden chapter just isn't the same.

But it really is. Both are in no way necessary to the completion of the game. The only difference is you actually get something out of the gaiden/bexp besides what's essentially a gold star sticker like a 1st grader.

I definitely want gaidens back. Maybe some criteria a little less complete chapter x in y turns. I liked how FE12 did it. You could complete it in the turns or have another way.

[Snowy_One]

Gaidens are far more limited in what they can do though. You can't have a gaiden for 'leveled every character to 20/20 across multiple playthroughs' or 'beat the game without using X unit type', especially if the gaiden is meant to have story purpose.

I'm not saying that they are mutually exclusive (I don't think they are at all), just that achievements and side-goals can accomplish things that a gaiden cannot.

[Othin]

If an objective is meaningless in terms of the events of the game, it doesn't make sense for it to result in any ingame reward.

But things don't have to be nearly that arbitrary. Say enemies are carrying a bunch of minor items you want to steal for some event, or there's some reason you don't want to (or can't) deploy the Jagen in a given mission. There can be ways for these things to make sense.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Othin

[Griffen78]

Like have those items you have to steal are like some orbs or something that are needed to unlock some shrine or something. And within you fight monsters and crap. Within it would have treasure chests and what not to make the gaiden serve a purpose, like maybe have a promotion item or something.

Doesn't really effect the story, but makes sense story wise.

[Anouleth]

That's one way to work it in to a world map. Perhaps there could be more than just skirmishes, and gaidens would be accessed from the world map?

[Griffen78]

That's one way to work it in to a world map. Perhaps there could be more than just skirmishes, and gaidens would be accessed from the world map?

Yeah I like that. Or maybe reaching certain requirements opens up new portions of the world map, like a town with an arena and such, or extra areas for skirmishes. Or like landing on certain areas before certain chapters opens up a gaiden chapter or something.