ICO & Shadow of the Colossus Collection

[Tangerine]

I have nothing to say about these games, there is nothing that needs to be said about them! I would be doing them a disservice to attempt to explain them. This is just a friendly message for people under a rock who do not know that they just came out a week or so ago.

Go buy them! They both have all of the content from the EU versions that was missing in the NA releases. I was surprised how much better the graphics were this time around, the other HD collections didn't impress me that much. For $40 it's a steal if you haven't played them before.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Stop presenting me with financial dillemas. 8[

[Rewjeo]

What on earth might you want to be instead of this? This stuff's amazing.

[Tangerine]

Stop presenting me with financial dillemas. 8[

I agree with the above poster! Your gaming fund is not spent better elsewhere. Plus the series needs to be supported! Once The Last Guardian comes out we need to make sure Team ICO keeps making games :o.

[Inactive Account]

I'm at a bit of a dilemma because I loved Shadow of the Colossus, but then Team Ico had to go make asses of themselves in the planning stages of The Last Guardian. So I really want to play these, but they've been a bit ruined to me, or at least my desire to throw my money at Team Ico has been ruined. In any case I'm broke and don't have a PS3, so buying them isn't an option. (Maybe they'll have done something to redeem themselves by the time I can afford them? Would certainly be nice.)

or I'll end up crashing at my cousin's house to play them, that always works.

[spoiler=Explanation of the being asses about The Last Guardian remark naknaknak]The player character had originally been slated to be a girl, rather than a boy. The developers changed their minds, which would have been enough to annoy but not really to ruin, except for the reasons they gave. Their reasons: they didn't want to deal with upskirts (because pants and leggings apparently don't exist), and they didn't think players would be able to suspend their disbelief if they saw a young girl climbing all over everything (as opposed to a boy of the same age who realistically wouldn't be able to do that much climbing either.) They would have done better to not give reasons, it would have been less infuriating.

Made me really sad, I loved their games so much.

[Erk]

This makes me want to buy a PS3....So dooes The Last Guardian and The Journey....poop.

[Tangerine]

I'm at a bit of a dilemma because I loved Shadow of the Colossus, but then Team Ico had to go make asses of themselves in the planning stages of The Last Guardian. So I really want to play these, but they've been a bit ruined to me, or at least my desire to throw my money at Team Ico has been ruined. In any case I'm broke and don't have a PS3, so buying them isn't an option. (Maybe they'll have done something to redeem themselves by the time I can afford them? Would certainly be nice.)

or I'll end up crashing at my cousin's house to play them, that always works.

[spoiler=Explanation of the being asses about The Last Guardian remark naknaknak]The player character had originally been slated to be a girl, rather than a boy. The developers changed their minds, which would have been enough to annoy but not really to ruin, except for the reasons they gave. Their reasons: they didn't want to deal with upskirts (because pants and leggings apparently don't exist), and they didn't think players would be able to suspend their disbelief if they saw a young girl climbing all over everything (as opposed to a boy of the same age who realistically wouldn't be able to do that much climbing either.) They would have done better to not give reasons, it would have been less infuriating.

Made me really sad, I loved their games so much.

Isn't it kind of silly to let something like that ruin the games for you ? I mean, feel free to disagree with the people saying it, but it certainly doesn't effect the quality of the games! TLG is going to be amazing regardless of what Ueda (was it actually him or someone else?) has to say about the believability of a young girl climbing stuff. I don't really care what the main characters' gender is or their reasons for having it be that way, as long as the game is great.

Anyway, I've been playing them on the little amount of free time I've had the last couple days. I noticed ICO has a 2 player option that I don't remember ever being there on the PS2 version, maybe an EU option we didn't get?

Shadow of the Colossus is considerably more difficult than it previously was as well, I am a little surprised. It could just be in my head, but the colossus aren't nearly as happy to stand around getting stabbed as they were before. I just finished Gaius (3) and it took me forever because he wouldn't stop trying to throw me off if I approached some of the sigils in a certain way, and it is really picky about what way that is. No complaints though, it is a welcomed difficulty increase, and having to re-learn the battles is fine with me. Just not looking forward to the time attacks .

The frame rate is also greatly improved, no slow downs whatsoever. I have to commend it on its graphical upgrade as well, plus the draw distance is waaay better. I wanna play more, but work time .

also Shadow HD supports 3D and playing it while wearing 3D glasses is kind of trippy during the colossus fights >_>.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Tangerine

[Inactive Account]

It's kind of a punch in the gut to have the developers spouting bullshit like that. It didn't really ruin the games for me; I'm just not sure I want to fund that kind of attitude. I wouldn't have cared about the character's gender, but then they had to go make it clear that they were going to do something so cool, but then they changed it for arbitrary shitty reasons that reflect arbitrary shitty opinions. If the character had been male from the start, it wouldn't have mattered to me. It's knowing what the game could have had and why they took it away that hurts.

I think what makes it harder for me to accept than another series doing something lousy is that they really are such great, beautiful games, and I want to love The Last Guardian just as much as I loved Shadow of the Colossus. And I'm sure that when I finally get to play it, probably years late because of time constraints and money or borrowing, I will really enjoy it. But there will still be a sour note of "remember that? That's what the developers think of you in some regards." So it doesn't ruin, but it definitely takes away from my experience.

(Attitudes of the industry in general especially bother me because they're going to directly affect me when I finally get a job, and also because there are developers I look up to as what I want to do eventually, and Team Ico used to be one of them. It always hurts to have a role model do something alienating.)

---

Whoa, 3D? Aigh that sounds... yeah I'm not trying that in the nebulous future when I get the game, I get headaches from normal 3D where I'm not climbing shit.

Oh man, I want all the details when you get to Phalanx, all of them.

...I feel like I will end up requiring more time than should be necessary when I finally play the SotC update, just because wandering around looking at stuff. Even in the original I spent a ridiculous amount of time doing that. (Also like half an hour running headlong into waves on one of the beach areas, because I thought it was completely hilarious how Wander got knocked over by them.) ...I'm pretty sure that in any game I play with pretty scenery, the player character mysteriously develops player-inflicted ADHD...

[Defeatist Elitist]

I agree with the above poster! Your gaming fund is not spent better elsewhere. Plus the series needs to be supported! Once The Last Guardian comes out we need to make sure Team ICO keeps making games :o.

Man, I don't even really have a gaming fund.

[Tangerine]

It's kind of a punch in the gut to have the developers spouting bullshit like that. It didn't really ruin the games for me; I'm just not sure I want to fund that kind of attitude. I wouldn't have cared about the character's gender, but then they had to go make it clear that they were going to do something so cool, but then they changed it for arbitrary shitty reasons that reflect arbitrary shitty opinions. If the character had been male from the start, it wouldn't have mattered to me. It's knowing what the game could have had and why they took it away that hurts.

I think what makes it harder for me to accept than another series doing something lousy is that they really are such great, beautiful games, and I want to love The Last Guardian just as much as I loved Shadow of the Colossus. And I'm sure that when I finally get to play it, probably years late because of time constraints and money or borrowing, I will really enjoy it. But there will still be a sour note of "remember that? That's what the developers think of you in some regards." So it doesn't ruin, but it definitely takes away from my experience.

(Attitudes of the industry in general especially bother me because they're going to directly affect me when I finally get a job, and also because there are developers I look up to as what I want to do eventually, and Team Ico used to be one of them. It always hurts to have a role model do something alienating.)

Haha, I definitely know where you're coming from. I don't particularly like the comment they made, but I can't really let it effect my opinion of them. I don't feel that I am supporting their opinions on female physical capabilities by buying their game, I feel like I am supporting a team of artistic masterminds who are doing things nobody else in the business does . I want to see more of it, so I want to help out and enjoy their product at the same time.

I'm still kinda curious to hear about that story though. It really doesn't sound like something Ueda would do or say to me. Crazier things happen in ICO and Shadow than a girl climbing stuff. Team ICO is just a sub-division of Sony itself, it could be possible that they wanted the character to be male for the sake of appealing to the main demographic of the industry and had them change it and make up a silly reason. From what I understand though, Sony gives Ueda total artistic freedom in the few games he directs, so I'm not sure what's up.

Whoa, 3D? Aigh that sounds... yeah I'm not trying that in the nebulous future when I get the game, I get headaches from normal 3D where I'm not climbing shit.

I knoooow. When they start moving or attacking it gets even worse, I lost focus on the one colossus I tried it on several times. It is a fun experience, but it makes things super whacky .

Oh man, I want all the details when you get to Phalanx, all of them.

Haha, Phalanx is 13 right? The enormous flying colossus? I'm curious to see if he actually has attacks this time, the couple ones I've fought have had attacks I never saw before, or at the very least never saw them use on the PS2 version. I dunno if it's EU bonus content or exclusive to the collection, but it is nice. He always felt easy to me because he had no way of beating you unless you personally messed up, but he's one of the most fun!

...I feel like I will end up requiring more time than should be necessary when I finally play the SotC update, just because wandering around looking at stuff. Even in the original I spent a ridiculous amount of time doing that. (Also like half an hour running headlong into waves on one of the beach areas, because I thought it was completely hilarious how Wander got knocked over by them.) ...I'm pretty sure that in any game I play with pretty scenery, the player character mysteriously develops player-inflicted ADHD...

I am the exaaact same way. I always wander around looking at stuff in games that let me. Shadow HD is pretty gorgeous for what was originally a PS2 game. The improvement in draw distance and no frame rate drops make it a lot more enjoyable to look around too.

Have you played ICO before? In terms of environment I have to say ICO has Shadow beat pretty soundly, and it got an even bigger graphical improvement than Shadow did since it was a PS2 launch title. It doesn't have as much to explore and it's a lot more compact, but what it does have is incredibly mood setting.

[Inactive Account]

The information came from an interview with Ueda. Whether it was him who made the ultimate call or not was unclear. [source]

(As an aside, the demographic argument is proven bullshit too, even if it gets used a lot. The Metroid series didn't suddenly die after players found out that they'd been playing as a woman for the whole of the game [let's not talk about Other M please that's a different discussion altogether], nor did Portal flop once players saw that Chell was a woman. I'd rather they had just owned up to not wanting a female character, rather than coming up with nonsensical, insulting excuses. paaaaaaaaaaants.)

Phalanx was the flying one, yeah, and beating it was about the saddest thing ever. It didn't even fight back. I wanted to keep it as a pet instead ;_;

I didn't manage to play ICO over the summer-- I forgot to borrow it off my friend who has it before we left school, and that turned out to be moot anyway because I didn't have time to play games. Winter breakkkkkkkkkk--- time to crash at my cousin's house and use his PS3, except he doesn't buy games anymore and principles or not I'm still broke

Edited October 7, 2011 by Kiryn

[Tangerine]

The information came from an interview with Ueda. Whether it was him who made the ultimate call or not was unclear. [source]

Huh, that's pretty odd. For some reason I still can't image Ueda being the one to come up with it. Just doesn't seem like a decision he'd make at all 0_o. He's always doing stuff outside of the norm, I don't see why this would bother him.

(As an aside, the demographic argument is proven bullshit too, even if it gets used a lot. The Metroid series didn't suddenly die after players found out that they'd been playing as a woman for the whole of the game [let's not talk about Other M please that's a different discussion altogether], nor did Portal flop once players saw that Chell was a woman. I'd rather they had just owned up to not wanting a female character, rather than coming up with nonsensical, insulting excuses. paaaaaaaaaaants.)

Well, it's hard to really compare. Metroid and Portal were both established and popular series'. Same goes for Final Fantasy, although it is interesting to note that FF13 sold worse than the PS1 and PS2 flagship titles despite being released on two platforms compared to them being exclusive, and there was quite a bit of drama about having a female main when it was first announced.

I think it's tough to compare and certainly silly to say a female main is guaranteed to have lower sales, but it is a fact that young males are the main demographic of the industry, and some producers may feel it's safer to have a male character with that in mind. If that's what happened I dunno, but Sony does some weird things sometimes with their games. I believe they're the ones who asked for Crash Bandicoot to look more like an anime character for the Japanese releases when their Naughty Dog team was still making the games.

Also, characters like Samus and Lara Croft have become sex symbols more than anything else, and I hate to say that that is more than likely a big part of their continued popularity among a certain audience. I think the Resident Evil or Silent Hill series would be the best cases for female mains. Their sexuality isn't overly emphasized and most of them are fairly well-written characters with some depth to them.

Phalanx was the flying one, yeah, and beating it was about the saddest thing ever. It didn't even fight back. I wanted to keep it as a pet instead ;_;

I feel like beating any of them is sad, but yeah, he wasn't even doing anything to try and hurt you :(.

I didn't manage to play ICO over the summer-- I forgot to borrow it off my friend who has it before we left school, and that turned out to be moot anyway because I didn't have time to play games. Winter breakkkkkkkkkk--- time to crash at my cousin's house and use his PS3, except he doesn't buy games anymore and principles or not I'm still broke

Don't forget to play it with the lights out and without any interruptions! Gotta get in the mood . Don't read spoilers either.

Edited October 7, 2011 by Tangerine

[Balcerzak]

Also, characters like Samus and Lara Croft have become sex symbols more than anything else, and I hate to say that that is more than likely a big part of their continued popularity among a certain audience. I think the Resident Evil or Silent Hill series would be the best cases for female mains. Their sexuality isn't overly emphasized and most of them are fairly well-written characters with some depth to them.

Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but IMO Samus didn't become a full-on sex symbol until Zero Mission introduced suitless Samus, aka Zero Suit. Yes, if you did completions in under X hours you could get a fanservice pic, which until the advent of Fusion's full CGs was only just a rough sprite at that. Her "sex appeal" was never the focus of the game, but a neat novelty. And these were all endings that were actually difficult to pull off, meaning if you're just a casual in it for the T&A, odds are you're never gonna see that.

[Inactive Account]

I can't really be too surprised even if it was Ueda's personal decision because being able to think outside the narrative and artistic norm does not necessarily equate to thinking outside the social norm, unfortunately.

--

I picked Samus and Chell as examples precisely because they were not sex symbols for multiple games (Samus has become one mostly since that stupid Zero Suit was introduced, Chell never became one.) Samus was unnecessarily turned into one, but her success hardly depended on it. But that wouldn't even apply here, since the protagonist of The Last Guardian is, like, ten or twelve or something.

How was Portal from an established series (unless you mean in terms of being related to Half-Life?) It was quite literally a student project that Valve picked up. It was from an established developer, Valve, who were known for making great games-- just like Team Ico is.

Was FFXIII a really great game? I haven't played it, but from what I've heard, it was either terrible (from the Square haters), mediocre, or decent, but not great, not up to par with some of the better entries of the series. Game quality affects sales. Square Enix has produced many good games, but it is not as synonymous with greatness as Valve-- or as Team Ico. I'm not sure that FFXIII's performance is any kind of indicator since it seems the game itself had a lot of issues.

--

Ehh, most of the colossi made me sad, but a few of them I wasn't too sorry to kill (Cenobia and Celosia come to mind, fast little murderous jerks.) The harder they tried to kill me (or even more so if they hurt Agro) the less I felt bad about killing them.

[Tangerine]

I think I'll just move this discussion to PM since it is mostly an industry discussion now rather than ICO/Shadow .

Ehh, most of the colossi made me sad, but a few of them I wasn't too sorry to kill (Cenobia and Celosia come to mind, fast little murderous jerks.) The harder they tried to kill me (or even more so if they hurt Agro) the less I felt bad about killing them.

Haha, I personally hated fighting the one where you had to use the steam! I love turtles and he reminded me of one, they are adorable .

Edited October 7, 2011 by Tangerine

[Defeatist Elitist]

You guys should make it a new topic, I'm actually enjoying it.

[Tangerine]

Well the discussion died when I sent my PM reply, now we're talking about other random stuff. Go buy the collection instead >:P.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Tangerine

[Inactive Account]

Hell, I'd be up for a new topic. Wasn't able to respond to PM earlier, then it got turned into other things.

aggghhh the turtle one took me forever to figure out how to kill

Edited October 8, 2011 by Kiryn

[Tangerine]

I dunno, I'm kinda out of the mood for it since we changed subjects. I guess someone could create a general thread about the under-appreciation or representation of women/females in the industry rather than a continuation of our discussion, it could be interesting to see what people think of the way things are now and how they were a decade ago for example.

I hate the horse one the most. That one took me the longest to figure out, and it never does what you want it to .

[Inactive Account]

Would not support a thread that starts out as a general representation discussion; those are almost always train wrecks. Would probably work better to have a topic that starts off focusing on one incident or issue (this one for example) and allow it to comfortably branch out if need be. Starting with a concrete instance allows people to think about the instance and what caused it, rather than seeing yet another nebulously defined representation topic and jumping straight to the "crazy feminazi bitches" stage.

tang are you perhaps trying to make me remember just how bad I was at this game and all the ones I had trouble with

Cenobia and Celosia for top tier of annoying forever though. Mumble.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Kiryn

[Esau of Isaac]

I'm at a bit of a dilemma because I loved Shadow of the Colossus, but then Team Ico had to go make asses of themselves in the planning stages of The Last Guardian. So I really want to play these, but they've been a bit ruined to me, or at least my desire to throw my money at Team Ico has been ruined. In any case I'm broke and don't have a PS3, so buying them isn't an option. (Maybe they'll have done something to redeem themselves by the time I can afford them? Would certainly be nice.)

or I'll end up crashing at my cousin's house to play them, that always works.

[spoiler=Explanation of the being asses about The Last Guardian remark naknaknak]The player character had originally been slated to be a girl, rather than a boy. The developers changed their minds, which would have been enough to annoy but not really to ruin, except for the reasons they gave. Their reasons: they didn't want to deal with upskirts (because pants and leggings apparently don't exist), and they didn't think players would be able to suspend their disbelief if they saw a young girl climbing all over everything (as opposed to a boy of the same age who realistically wouldn't be able to do that much climbing either.) They would have done better to not give reasons, it would have been less infuriating.

Made me really sad, I loved their games so much.

These reasons don't seem incredibly horrible, personally. A bit odd, perhaps, but you seem to suggest that these are offensively bad decisions.

I think you're overreacting.

[Tangerine]

Would not support a thread that starts out as a general representation discussion; those are almost always train wrecks. Would probably work better to have a topic that starts off focusing on one incident or issue (this one for example) and allow it to comfortably branch out if need be. Starting with a concrete instance allows people to think about the instance and what caused it, rather than seeing yet another nebulously defined representation topic and jumping straight to the "crazy feminazi bitches" stage.

So you think we should make a thread about Ueda's decision and reasoning for changing the female character into a male character and see what people think?

tang are you perhaps trying to make me remember just how bad I was at this game and all the ones I had trouble with

Cenobia and Celosia for top tier of annoying forever though. Mumble.

Cenobia and Celosia are the small ones right ? Yeah, they are a lot faster than the others!

[Inactive Account]

New thread, starts with either this incident, a similar incident, or one specific issue within the overall issue of representation (for example, the issue of whether having a non-eyecandy female protagonist makes a good game more or less likely to sell). If discussion branches out into general representation discussion (as that one axe user topic did) allow it to do so, I just have like negative confidence in the outcome of a thread that starts out being about the representation issue in general.

stupid little fast jerks who won't even let you get up when you fall down aaaghhh stop STEPPING on me dern tiger tank thing (cenobia and celosia were the ones I didn't feel guilty about killing whyever would you ask)

[Tangerine]

I'd rather it not have anything to do with this discussion. Otherwise people would be discussing things I said and I would feel obligated to reply to a discussion I have no desire to continue after we took it to PM, let alone with anyone other than you.

Apparently it's worse in the remaster. I read on a message board that their recovery times from being hurt were sped up and they are more aggressive. You will like it huh :tangerine:?

Edited October 8, 2011 by Tangerine

[Inactive Account]

Eh, I'd be willing to discuss the Last Guardian thing with other people. Later. Haven't got any argument points left at all. Whichever thread. And post it to Games, if it ends up in SD I'm not touching it with a ten lightyear pole.

I think this thread is also now about my hatred for Cenobia and Celosia.