a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 We're discussing intentions here. Even if the thief, X, is the worst player in the game, I don't think X would want to ignore his Thief ability and remain like a Vanilla forever. No, X would definitely want an ability and he/she would be willing to steal to get it. Even if the victim, Y, would have made better use of the ability, X would still want to take the item anyway. This is in response to Naggy's post, when he doubted whether a Town Thief would do something like that. Whether the act of stealing was beneficial for the Town or not, is an entirely different story. So you are claiming that you are usefull by making game more interesting to you? Bullcrap You completely ignored my explanation of why Jack-of-all-Trades is awesome. Stacking items is not bad. The thief can actually use those abilities, and being able to use different abilities gives it an extra advantage that the original owners didn't have. You completely ignored my explanation why self made Jack-of-all trades is risky to have ...did you seriously try to argue against the most important point by something as stupid as "because I'm always Town"? I don't seriously need to explain why "because I'm always Town" isn't even considered logic, do I? Even if you don't have any hard evidence, you can at least present some logical reason why the Thief would have believed you were Town. That point had no importance in my eyes. Notice the part where I atleast tried to contribute something in open during N0? Thats all the proof I need for now At least if Psych said something like "If I were Mafia, my scumbuddies would murder the mods because they think I'm a bad player. So the mods would obviously made me Town", it would have made some sense, even if this logic should not even be treated like logic. But from you, ShoM, "Because I'm always Town" has absolutely 0 value, unless you're suggesting that you're in a similar position as Psych. Now that you ask it yes I am. IM SO FUCKING PISSED ABOUT BEING LYNCHED FOR MY "BAD ATTITUDE" FOR THE 3RD FUCKING TIME!!! Are you implying that items that give the player active abilities can be used every night? Without ever breaking? Are you serious, ShoM? Even if that IS what your item is like, the death of a Thief likely won't be a bigger loss until it racks up three items or more. Every player has an ability, as well as an item, which makes for two abilities, regardless of whether it's active or passive. Are you implying that the thief can acquire three items that all have infinite uses and still be vulnerable to nightkills? are you implying any set of 3 items somefow includes bulletproof vest? If I were a Jack-of-all-Trades, and I used up my last ability, an investigation, to find scum, I don't think I would claim to be a JoaT. No, it would be better to claim Cop, so that the Mafia continues to think that I, now a Vanilla, will remain as a threat. THIEF IS NOT JACK. Thief steals abilities jack just has them. Dont mix the 2 and start make sense Besides, why would a Thief want to tell the public what other abilities are in his possession? And why would the Thief even want the public to know that they have other abilities in the first place? If I want to reveal that I have a specific ability, why should I tell everybody what my other abilities, if it's not necessary for me to reveal them? There's absolutely no reason to do that. So I might as well just stick to claiming the ability that is actually relevant to the public, and hide the other abilities until it's necessary for me reveal them. OR HE CAN BE SCUM AND USE THEM TO FAKECLAIM Again, why would you want to expose the Thief when he could be incredibly useful as Town? again assuming thief is townie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 That was based on me not reading the rules beyond "NOC" and the last couple of rules because of the sign ups. Whoops! But you still seem kinda, uhh, I don't know how to put this. Hostile, I guess? being hostile so to say is part of my nature. go read i dont know any game i have played in Valid Argument? Do you have any idea what the word "valid" even means? bullshit is valid counter argument for bullshit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naglfar Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 So you are claiming that you are usefull by making game more interesting to you? Bullcrap Read it again. You completely ignored my explanation why self made Jack-of-all trades is risky to have When? That point had no importance in my eyes. Notice the part where I atleast tried to contribute something in open during N0? Thats all the proof I need for now Eh. This part of the argument is petty bullshit. Now that you ask it yes I am. IM SO FUCKING PISSED ABOUT BEING LYNCHED FOR MY "BAD ATTITUDE" FOR THE 3RD FUCKING TIME!!! You have one vote on you, right? are you implying any set of 3 items somefow includes bulletproof vest? I don't get this either, Proto. THIEF IS NOT JACK. Thief steals abilities jack just has them. Dont mix the 2 and start make sense Thief with multiple items is functionally identical to jack. OR HE CAN BE SCUM AND USE THEM TO FAKECLAIM Calm down. And what use is claiming a role that matches an item you stole? again assuming thief is townie Assuming =/= considering the possibility Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haze Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 This is neither the time nor the place for debating how to play (with a) thief, we're supposed to be discussing who to lynch. (Also sorry Kaoz, totally forgot.) ##Unvote ##Vote: Kaoz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 When? when i said thief with many items dieing is very bad for town. Eh. This part of the argument is petty bullshit. Not seeing the other persons point = bullshit? You have one vote on you, right? and 2 other guys accusing me. Thief with multiple items is functionally identical to jack. Hey Oscar with all the stat booster functions like Titania! Is he the same thing? NO! Its called oportunity cost my friend. When jack dies we lose abilities no one else could use anyway. When thief dies we use abilities ANYONE ELSE COULD USE JUST AS WELL. Calm down. And what use is claiming a role that matches an item you stole? You can proof your claim if you can make it happen. Assuming =/= considering the possibility Im yet to see him consider the option of scum thief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uguu Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 ok, I get it now (why it took me so long I have no idea) (put very simply and vaguely) Sho is mad because people keep lynching him for being mean Sho says a couple of dumb things and stacking items is bad Proto says anyone would be better with items than Sho and that stacking items could technically potentially become a good thing Sho starts pushing his only good point and I ignore anything about him directly claiming innocence ##Unvote I know it looks dumb to flop around like a faggot like this, as if my single vote even will even make a significant difference until the end of the phase, but whatever. Also yeah imo thinking about it now (surprise, I know) it would be a bad thing for a town thief to take items randomly and become jack since it's getting rid of diversity among the town. Another bad thing is that they can only use one per night. This is neither the time nor the place for debating how to play (with a) thief, we're supposed to be discussing who to lynch. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naglfar Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 when i said thief with many items dieing is very bad for town. Oh, right. Not seeing the other persons point = bullshit? Both sides having no point = bullshit and 2 other guys accusing me. Not really. Hey Oscar with all the stat booster functions like Titania! Is he the same thing? NO! Its called oportunity cost my friend. When jack dies we lose abilities no one else could use anyway. When thief dies we use abilities ANYONE ELSE COULD USE JUST AS WELL. That really has nothing to do with the case in point, which is "why a thief might fakeclaim as town". The jack thing was a hypothetical analogy and I think you're reading too far into it. You can proof your claim if you can make it happen. Actually, with the existence of items, proving claims is going to be very tricky for anyone in this game. Im yet to see him consider the option of scum thief. Scum thief is so straightforward it's not really worth discussing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Now if only proto starts to make sense we can stop this foolishness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naglfar Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 By the way Sho, since your item's gone now anyway, could you tell us what it did? Or would that be a bad idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaoz Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 I would like to add that even when you take Proto's approach that a Thief can become a JoaT, it's not necessarily good to steal randomly, since some items might be more useful with the role they were originally assigned to. Will post more when I finished having lunch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Scum thief is so straightforward it's not really worth discussing. So its ok to ignore it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriemhild Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 So you are claiming that you are usefull by making game more interesting to you? Bullcrap No, I said it makes perfect sense for a TOWN Thief to not-idle on Night 1. Even if you would have utilized the item better, a Town Thief would have wanted to steal something anyway. I'd imagine the Town Thief actually thought he could use it better than you, and I'm sure there are many players (including me) that would agree. My point is that, you having an item stolen tells us absolutely NOTHING about the Thief's alignment. The Thief might be Town, or Self-Aligned, or Mafia. I am pointing out the flaw in your logic that the Thief must be anti-Town simply because he stole from you. Even if you would have utilized the item better than the Thief (which I doubt, btw), the fact that he/she stole from you does NOT automatically make him/her anti-Town. You completely ignored my explanation why self made Jack-of-all trades is risky to have I did not. Like I said, it's only when you have three or more items of infinite uses that makes it a bigger loss (quantity-wise, because quality has nothing to do with the Thief's existence). I find the idea of a Thief having THREE items with INFINITE USES and still be vulnerable to nightkills to be incredibly unlikely. No, seriously, I have never heard of such a thing ever before in Mafia. That point had no importance in my eyes. Notice the part where I atleast tried to contribute something in open during N0? Thats all the proof I need for now That does not make you Town. Now, going back to my original point: If the Thief attacks a Mafia member, then it would be bad for the Mafia since they just lost an ability. If you want to counter with some rubbish like "Because Im always town and at least trying to steal from scum is better idea", I want you to prove to me exactly why the Thief would be convinced that you're Town. Yes, prove it, with evidence. If you can't do that, at least use proper logic on why the Thief would believe you're Town. Saying "Because I'm always Town" is like saying that you're sure to get heads on a perfectly fair coin because you got heads thrice in a row . And suggesting that the coin is not perfectly fair is equal to suggesting that the mods did not RNG the roles, and wanted to make you Town, which again, you need to provide reasons for, which the Thief would be able to deduce. If you cannot accomplish any of those, then your "Because Im always town and at least trying to steal from scum is better idea" is complete garbage. I actually doubt you could even find a SINGLE person that would be convinced that you're Town, making your claim that the Thief is completely sure that you're Town to be extremely ridiculous. Now that you ask it yes I am. IM SO FUCKING PISSED ABOUT BEING LYNCHED FOR MY "BAD ATTITUDE" FOR THE 3RD FUCKING TIME!!! You misunderstood me. You are not being lynched for your bad attitude. You are being voted for because your logic fails. btw I haven't even voted for you myself, so I'm not the one you should be screaming to about being lynched. are you implying any set of 3 items somefow includes bulletproof vest? I would assume that they would be passive abilities, so yes. However, you seem to be quite sure that the active ability items cannot be broken either. Which I find to be quite far-fetched. Even if you're right though, and assuming that these three items are REALLY AMAZING, I guess the Town Thief would probably expose himself for Doctor protection when he realizes he gets too powerful. If they're not that great, I don't see how the death of the Town Thief would be "such a big loss". THIEF IS NOT JACK. Thief steals abilities jack just has them. Dont mix the 2 and start make sense It's the same idea. The Jack doesn't need to tell the world that he has other abilities. If the Thief got an investigation item and got a guilty result, he can roleclaim that to get the Mafia lynched. In such a situation, it would be pointless for the Thief to claim that he has other items, since they have nothing to do with the guilty result. He should not claim these other items for the same reason that not a single Townie in this game has claimed. So yes, it may be necessary for the Thief to fakeclaim in order to conceal the other items that don't need to be revealed yet. OR HE CAN BE SCUM AND USE THEM TO FAKECLAIM I never denied the possibility of a Mafia Thief. However, I see absolutely nothing that implies that the Thief may be Town, or Mafia, or Self-Aligned. Actually, scratch that, if the Thief was Mafia, he/she would have stolen something from a much better player that would likely use their item better. Thanks, ShoM, you just convinced me that the Thief is Town, which I seriously did not have any faith in until now. again assuming thief is townie You have yet to explain with proper logic why you think the Thief is Mafia. being hostile so to say is part of my nature. go read i dont know any game i have played in bullshit is valid counter argument for bullshit So basically, stealing from a Mafia member is not good for the Town? Is that what you're trying to mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naglfar Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 So its ok to ignore it? What are we ignoring? "herp derp take the town's shit away" The thief could be either, so the discussion was about what they might do if they were town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 By the way Sho, since your item's gone now anyway, could you tell us what it did? Or would that be a bad idea? I already told it. It checks affinity (FIRE, DARK, WATER, EARTH, WIND, LIGHT if you havent played Yugioh. There is also DIVINE but its not in Duel Terminal for numerous reasons) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriemhild Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Proto says anyone would be better with items than Sho and that stacking items could technically potentially become a good thing Although I do think that other people can use their items better than ShoM, that had absolutely nothing to do with any of my points. I do believe that stacking can potentially become a very good thing, IF THE THIEF IS TOWN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Start making sense proto. And stop saying im bad player. You have played with me far too often to not notice the fact that I am not a bad player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naglfar Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 I already told it. It checks affinity (FIRE, DARK, WATER, EARTH, WIND, LIGHT if you havent played Yugioh. There is also DIVINE but its not in Duel Terminal for numerous reasons) That's attribute. Affinity would imply town/mafia/etc. You also didn't say this directly, you left it ambiguous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naglfar Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Start making sense proto. And stop saying im bad player. You have played with me far too often to not notice the fact that I am not a bad player. Stop telling him to start making sense. His logic has been perfectly sound so far. Yours hasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Stop telling him to start making sense. His logic has been perfectly sound so far. Yours hasn't. His logic includes such perfectly reasonnable things such as stacking items is good when its BAD and that Sho is moron. Both completely incorrect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naglfar Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 His logic includes such perfectly reasonnable things such as stacking items is good when its BAD and that Sho is moron. Both completely incorrect He has other points, and stacking items can be both good and bad, but I think it might be good, especially if most items turn out to be single-use. I will not comment on your intelligence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 You can only use one item per night and its risky to stack them. What good part is there? Now if you could point those other good points of him you keep refering and I seems to be unable to locate. And make it quick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriemhild Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 I would like to add that even when you take Proto's approach that a Thief can become a JoaT, it's not necessarily good to steal randomly, since some items might be more useful with the role they were originally assigned to. Irrelevant. Unless you're implying that this is enough of a reason for a Town Thief to actually IDLE until they find a good target. In fact, I know players that wouldn't even idle as a Town Roleblocker, and the Roleblocker has the potential of doing much more damage than a Town Thief which does not negate any abilities, but simply transfers them to a player that the Town Thief is most convinced as being Town. My point is, even if it's a bad idea, stealing from ShoM does not make the Thief anti-Town. I have yet to see a single indication, logical or evidential, that suggests that the Thief is anti-Town, which is why I am angry at ShoM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Im yet to see evidence for thief being town positive. That goes both ways proto. And keep anger out of mafia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naglfar Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 You can only use one item per night and its risky to stack them. What good part is there? Now if you could point those other good points of him you keep refering and I seems to be unable to locate. And make it quick A bunch of abilities and results all in one place is a very good thing as long as the thief manages to not get killed. You wouldn't be likely to stack very many items, honestly. Especially hitting players without items. And keep anger out of mafia This is absolutely priceless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 A bunch of abilities and results all in one place is a very good thing as long as the thief manages to not get killed. You wouldn't be likely to stack very many items, honestly. Especially hitting players without items. For the last time the possibility of thief dieing is far too great AND only one item use per night per player means stacking LIMITS USE OF ITEMS This is absolutely priceless. This is absolutely moronic sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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