Ayra is such a scrub

[Refa]

Actually, while the intent was probably to be cheeky, it's quite a point. Ayra's not too good at killing things, she's too unpredictable. Since playing for ranks necessitates raising scrubs who can't level themselves, Ayra can't be used reliably to help them because of highly random Astra procs.

Not a strong point, sure, but it certainly is a point.

This is a game where you can save before the beginning of every turn without savestates (so, it's fair game). I hardly think that random Astra procs should be an issue.

[Integrity]

This is a game where you can save before the beginning of every turn without savestates (so, it's fair game). I hardly think that random Astra procs should be an issue.

By that token durability is something of a non-issue past a certain point as you can just reset to get the 3x 40% dodges you need.

Why am I defending Zak? He's perfectly competent.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Integrity

[Paperblade]

The increments are consistent before certain stats approach their cap.

The averages are actually true averages. If we randomly generate 10,000 Ayras at level 25 promoted, the sample average for spd will be 28.0 (to be more exact, there's an x% chance that it'll be within y points of 28.0, with x being very large and y being very small). The reason why it's not higher like expected is because a certain subset of those Ayras will have capped spd, so all of those Ayras that could have had 31+ spd will still only have 30 spd.

The method that you described is more accurately termed as calculating the expected value, but we've used the term "average" for so long that the members of the community usually equate the two. Most of the time, when a character has not gained enough levels to possibly cap a stat, the average is equivalent to the expected value, and even after that point, for low growths, the expected value closely approximates the average (since the set of, for example, Ayras who've gained 13 def points in 13 level ups is negligibly small).

To go into more detail on this:

"True averages" are calculated using a weighted mean. Basically, let's say we have a unit with a base speed of 10 that joins at level 5 with a 50% growth

After 1 level we have:

50% of 10 speed

50% of 11 speed

So for the weighted average we do 5 + 5.5 = 10.5

And it's really easy to calculate further levels since growths are static, so we can extrapolate easily, meaning that at level 7 we'd have:

25% for 10 speed

50% for 11 speed

25% for 12 speed

which gives us 2.5 + 5.5 + 3 = 11 speed average

The reason a weighted mean tends to differ from the formula that Lumi posted was that caps change the extrapolation a bit. For example, if the cap was 12 for whatever reason, after 3 levels the 12 speed can no longer increase, which would give us:

12.5% for 10 speed

37.5% for 11 speed

50% for 12 speed

1.25 + 4.125 + 6 = 11.375 average

as soon as there is a level up where the stat could have already been potentially be capped, a weighted average will differ from "simple averages," but most of the time the difference is so minute that most people really don't care.

More on topic, Ayra is okay, but FE4 is a stupid game where half of it is actually spent moving between areas so those of us with less patience don't want to wait around for lower move units to reach the fray.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Paperblade

[Refa]

By that token durability is something of a non-issue past a certain point as you can just reset to get the 3x 40% dodges you need.

There's a difference between stopping a player controlled event (activating Astra, getting your unit killed), which is obviously what the save system was for (because the chapters are long, so it's a failsafe if you make a mistake...like procing Astra) and RnG abuse.

I'm not saying that Ayra is amazing because you can RnG abuse, which you could do for practically any character. I'm just saying that she is not a worse unit because procing Astra is unpredictable. How can it be unpredictable when you can reset and do it all over again?

Edited November 17, 2011 by Refa

[Balcerzak]

There's a difference between stopping a player controlled event (activating Astra, getting your unit killed), which is obviously what the save system was for (because the chapters are long, so it's a failsafe if you make a mistake...like procing Astra) and RnG abuse.

I'm not saying that Ayra is amazing because you can RnG abuse, which you could do for practically any character. I'm just saying that she is not a worse unit because procing Astra is unpredictable. How can it be unpredictable when you can reset and do it all over again?

You have a whole army of player controlled units. Some of them have already gone, maybe landing an iffy Hit%, maybe having scored a sweet proc of their own. You're down to Ayra and Ardan and you want to set up the kill. Ayra massacres instead. It doesn't matter because you can start from the beginning of the turn and try again, right?

How again is this different than rigging 3 or 4 iffy dodges to fail on a player phase, thus handwaving durability? (Throwing a string of units at a boss, refreshing and trying again is obviously one way where you'd be placing frail units in repeated peril.)

[Anouleth]

There's a difference between stopping a player controlled event (activating Astra, getting your unit killed), which is obviously what the save system was for (because the chapters are long, so it's a failsafe if you make a mistake...like procing Astra) and RnG abuse.

Why is it that proccing Astra is a "mistake" but getting hit is not a mistake?

I'm not saying that Ayra is amazing because you can RnG abuse, which you could do for practically any character. I'm just saying that she is not a worse unit because procing Astra is unpredictable. How can it be unpredictable when you can reset and do it all over again?

But that is RNG abuse. It's resetting the RNG for a more desirable outcome. That is the definition of RNG abuse whether you are abusing to get a character to hit or to get a character to not proc skills or whatever.

[Refa]

You have a whole army of player controlled units. Some of them have already gone, maybe landing an iffy Hit%, maybe having scored a sweet proc of their own. You're down to Ayra and Ardan and you want to set up the kill. Ayra massacres instead. It doesn't matter because you can start from the beginning of the turn and try again, right?How again is this different than rigging 3 or 4 iffy dodges to fail on a player phase, thus handwaving durability? (Throwing a string of units at a boss, refreshing and trying again is obviously one way where you'd be placing frail units in repeated peril.)

Hmmm...any differences I could find would be splitting hairs. I'll concede that point, but I still refute the idea that Ayra proccing Astra is a bad thing. It is bad when the only way Ayra can kill something is by relying on her skill%. Relying on her procing Astra is definetely a point against her. However, getting Astra when you didn't expect it is a good thing, because it helps remove more enemies and freeing up your other units who you may have been babying to weaken other units; and what is that if not benificial to efficiency? Anyways, there are tons of enemies in FE4, and the chances of Ayra proccing Astra against every enemy in the wave of enemies is rather unlikely. In fact, proccing Astra helps whittle down the enemies to a manageable level for your weaker units that you are babying. This is not GBA Fire Emblem where you can easily weaken individual enemies for your growth units. You are fighting waves of enemies, and if Ayra didn't have Astra to kill off a few of them, chances are you wouldn't be able to bring your weaker units in anyways, because they'd get killed on the enemy phase. Astra is a blessing, don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise.

PS Yes, I realize I did a complete volte-face in terms of what I'm arguing for, which I would not do if this were a debate (thankfully, it's not, so I can do obnoxious things like that without being penalized).

Edited November 17, 2011 by Refa

[Paperblade]

EXP rank requires 1000 total level ups

there are about 1100-odd possible, including units like Dancers (unlikely to hit 30), Ardan, Dew, and Diedre.

Yes, I would like to feed Ardan that kill

[Refa]

EXP rank requires 1000 total level ups

there are about 1100-odd possible, including units like Dancers (unlikely to hit 30), Ardan, Dew, and Diedre.

Yes, I would like to feed Ardan that kill

I didn't know we were rating Ayra based on a rank playthrough and an efficiency playthrough at the same time. Talk about double standards! In a rank playthrough, yes it is a nuisance, but you have to use Ayra regardless, so there's no point in debating whether or not Ayra is useful based on that.

[Paperblade]

Ayra is bad in ltc because she's never going to get a kill, Sigurd/Cuan/Lex/Fin/Midir/Fury will kill everything

[dondon151]

I didn't know we were rating Ayra based on a rank playthrough and an efficiency playthrough at the same time. Talk about double standards!

Then perhaps you should more carefully Balcerzak's post, to which you quoted and responded.

[Parrhesia]

Ayra's great offense is offset by her movement and her durability. As a combatant, she's very good, but as an overall unit she leaves much to be desired. FE4 is all about the fights you can actually make it to in time. In Ayra's case, there simply aren't that many.

[Refa]

Then perhaps you should more carefully Balcerzak's post, to which you quoted and responded.

I don't see how setting up a kill for a weaker unit = ranked run, because obviously that's not always the case. I'm not going to assume ranked run just because someone said "Arden".

Ayra's great offense is offset by her movement and her durability. As a combatant, she's very good, but as an overall unit she leaves much to be desired. FE4 is all about the fights you can actually make it to in time. In Ayra's case, there simply aren't that many.

Sure.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Refa

[Izzak]

I worded it badly, but he got attacked once on turn 13, and I seized on turn 14. The pirate attacked Tiltyu on turn 12, missed, then went for Claude since I didn't move either of them. Or maybe Tiltyu killed one while I was frameskipping through it. All I know is he and Tiltyu both lived without doing anything (except getting hit/countering)

That's big shock

My tiltyu can dogde 3 hits ( that's the best she can do), die

[Integrity]

I don't see how setting up a kill for a weaker unit = ranked run, because obviously that's not always the case. I'm not going to assume ranked run just because someone said "Arden".

I am not sure that Ayra can classify as amazing, or godly even in ranked play.

I don't like making posts that are just quotes responding to quotes, but.

I LIEK READING

[Refa]

I don't like making posts that are just quotes responding to quotes, but.

I LIEK READING

Psssh. Why read when you can be ignorant? Tis Blissful.

Real answer- Whoops! Totally forgot about that.

[Parrhesia]

Furetchen

Thanks. I like replying to things with...other replies.

Furetchen

It's like hitting a guy in the face with another guy.

I think Integ's adopting my philosophy from ages ago.

[Izzak]

Ayra is bad in ltc because she's never going to get a kill, Sigurd/Cuan/Lex/Fin/Midir/Fury will kill everything

It isn't right :(

Ayra perhaps can kill yurius (without nihils)

And a meteor hit can kill very thing ( except something @_@)

MIdir excatly can kill anything, his str low, loss speed and skill than ayra, also less HP, and worse skill than ayra

Cuan can't kill a thing without a hero lance or continue

[Thor Odinson]

Ayra perhaps can kill yurius (without nihils)

Ayra can never kill Yurius because Yurius isn't even born by Bahara.

I have killed EndgameNihil!Yurius with Lakche, though, but that's with the Balmung Glitch. Most people don't favor Ayrakuche as much as I do.

[Integrity]

It isn't right :(

Ayra perhaps can kill yurius (without nihils)

And a meteor hit can kill very thing ( except something @_@)

MIdir excatly can kill anything, his str low, loss speed and skill than ayra, also less HP, and worse skill than ayra

Cuan can't kill a thing without a hero lance or continue

Did you miss how we were all fapping to MOV earlier? We still are.

@Lumi: Anyway, Ayra would be totally helpless against Julius because she'd do a whopping none damage to him unlike your Glitchke :p

[Darros]

Of course you can do none damage in FE4! Just ask anyone with Great Shield! (except Arden and Hannibal because it never activates for them <_<)

[Thor Odinson]

@Lumi: Anyway, Ayra would be totally helpless against Julius because she'd do a whopping none damage to him unlike your Glitchke :p

Technically, she'd do 1. That's like, the minimum damage in FE4.

4 max. Pursuit + Continue +Pursuit again.

But even then, generation gap anyway.

:P

Edited November 20, 2011 by Luminescent Blade

[Balcerzak]

Of course you can do none damage in FE4! Just ask anyone with Great Shield! (except Arden and Hannibal because it never activates for them <_<)

Great Shield counts as a Miss, as it does not waste weapon uses. It is not a zero damage hit.

[Integrity]

Technically, she'd do 1. That's like, the minimum damage in FE4.

The acronym tag is too subtle, or I'm missing your humor? :(

[Thor Odinson]

I didn't even notice the acronym thing.

Oops.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Luminescent Blade