Rate the Unit, Day 12: Erk

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Elieson, I hope you don't mind if I introduce today's character, seeing as it's been 24 hours since Guy was released.

Erk has...issues, I guess. He's purely outclassed by Nino and Pent stat-wise and offensively crushed by Lucius (and Lucius has the ability to reach physic use by late game, whereas Erk just won't), but his durability is definitably better than Lucius (which actually comes into play when my Lucius was facing being OHKO'd by wyverns in Living Legend, but Erk was not). He can reliably double and his MAG stat isn't super high, but he always does respectable damage and has good availability in both LHM and HHM. He's about as "average" as a mage can get, but sadly has practically no use once Pent gets into the scene, who is better base than Erk is ever going to be by Final...with a A staff rank to boot.

I like his personality, but I'm rating the unit, not the character, so I think a fair rating is 5.5/10. I'd honestly pick Beccy 90% of the time over him.

P.S. I'm not stupid enough to make Wil the Unit of the Day.

Current ranks (in order):

Bartre-2.8

Rebecca-3.13 (...the irony)

Dorcas-4.1

Eliwood-5.34

Guy-5.63

Matthew-6.3

Serra-6.3

Oswin-6.7

Lowen-6.75

Hector-8.3

Marcus-9.29

Edited December 31, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Thor Odinson]

Erk is decent. He doubles a decent amount of enemies and hits res. I've never used him seriously since Lucius and Prissy owns my Guiding Rings, but he's pretty alright. Nothing too special, though. And he doesn't own a horse, but no magic unit besides Prissy does anyway. His uses dwindle later on due to never ever getting any staff rank. Makes for better chip than the archers, certainly.

6/10.

[Bluedoom]

zI really feel sad for Lowen. HE DOESNT DESERVE A MERE 6.75!!!!

</3

As with Erk, he's fine really. Lyn Mode makes him much more usable and'I'd vote for him over the many scrubs we've been talking about so far.

It doesnt hurt to have more magic users although he's the underwhelming of the lot. Still better than Serra though.

6.5/10

[Aethereal]

5/10. He's okay, but crap durability, and a much better replacement make him fairly pointless imo. His chip also isn't really necessary a lot of the time, most of your units wipe the floor with enemies.

[Elieson]

Kngt, thank you for covering for me...like I said in rebecca, my life is really strange right now...

Anyway, onto something relevant, Erk irks me...always has, always will. He, like Guy, just screams "ok" to me...which just isn't enough. He is useful in the reserve that he has keen availability, but Dorcas does toi, and he isn't stellar.

He targets res, which is good, and comes with a free goddess icon, but will never be a huge asset considering he is just outclassed by Pent, and less useful on Final compared to Canas. Nino wont replace him, and Lucius at least has the stats to double everything.

Early&mid game, he competes for the very limited deployment slots, which isn't good enough.

He isnt horrible . He jus isn't as useful a unit in the long run, which we all know. Struggling to earn a spot on the team just isn't his forte

4/10 for me

[Excellen Browning]

The availability of better units a bad unit does not make. Not even mediocre. The only thing most players seem to have against him is the fact that Pent (and I suppose Athos as well) is in this game. Which isn't all that fair in my opinion, because basically after Pent joins he still delivers good enough combat to be considered for use.

Not to mention I find it fucking bizarre Erk seems to get lower scores than Guy, someone who is definitely a worse character than him.

7/10

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Not to mention I find it fucking bizarre Erk seems to get lower scores than Guy, someone who is definitely a worse character than him.

No, you have it mixed up. Guy > Erk. Simple mistake.

@Elieson: Don't worry about it. About 5 months ago I was off to a medical college that looked wonderful, was located on a secluded tropical island, was recommended to me by no less than about 4 doctors who went there, and was offering me 1/3 off tuition as a scholarship for my MCAT scores & GPA; due to a completely fucked up series of events and a terrible first week there, I now find myself working as a host/waiter/bus boy (weird mix of all three) of a small club that hosts events for the military waiting to shadow a doctor and applying to attend medical schools in Fall 2012, trying to be a little wiser with my choice this time (and hoping I'm lucky enough to get in again).

Life is funny like that. You seriously never know what's going to happen next.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Elieson]

Oos, 2x post

Edited December 31, 2011 by Elieson

[Excellen Browning]

No, you have it mixed up. Guy > Erk.

Simple mistake.

Not really. Guy's superior offense lasts about as long as he still has the killing edge. Assuming Erk doubles, of course. Not to mention you might want to conserve the KE for later use. Both can't really be used as a front liner, because they've both got crappy defensive stats, but at least Erk's got 1-2 range to make life easier for him. Not to mention potential longer term use; even if we do replace Erk with Pent, that gives him a good chunk of LHM and then from re-recruitment (chapter 14?) till chapter 26, when Pent is recruited. Compared to Guy who technically joins one chapter earlier, but practically the same chapter (because he sees maybe one fight in 13 if he's lucky) and will probably stop being deployed probably some time before that.

Erk is superior.

[Galenforcer]

6/10

Doubles fine and has magic. Pretty frail though.

[OrangeCrush980]

8/10. Lyn mode helps negate much of his earlygame suck, so he enters HHM in a good place unless he's RNG screwed. Magic units are usually nice to have around, and he's your best offensive magic user until Pent joins (Lucius is too frail and Canas can't double much of anything). Admittedly, Erk's lategame is a bit rough due to all the good prepromotes competing for slots, but Erk is still good against this game's crappy enemies.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Not really. Guy's superior offense lasts about as long as he still has the killing edge. Assuming Erk doubles, of course. Not to mention you might want to conserve the KE for later use. Both can't really be used as a front liner, because they've both got crappy defensive stats, but at least Erk's got 1-2 range to make life easier for him. Not to mention potential longer term use; even if we do replace Erk with Pent, that gives him a good chunk of LHM and then from re-recruitment (chapter 14?) till chapter 26, when Pent is recruited. Compared to Guy who technically joins one chapter earlier, but practically the same chapter (because he sees maybe one fight in 13 if he's lucky) and will probably stop being deployed probably some time before that.

Erk is superior.

Guy is fine in the front lines with HHM bonuses. He has a high base HP, HHM helps his DEF/STR, and he ends up notably more durable than Erk. Erk also has the issue that Lucius tends to be better than him most of the time (Lucius is pretty insane offensively), doubling more reliably and hitting harder; Erk only shines when he can survive something Lucius cannot or in Living Legend, where every flier and magic user is deployed in S-rank or efficiency runs. The reasons to use Erk dwindle to near nothingness when Pent comes on to the scene, since he's just SO...MUCH...BETTER (unlike Raven v. Guy, where Raven is better, but not really by much honestly, especially once Guy gets the 15% crit) and Lucius will likely take the second caster slot.

Like I said, Guy's performance is really reliant on his STR. Since growths allow for variable values of STR, and Guy scales really well with STR (he doubles and rocks a 50%+ crit chance post-promo with killing edge, so every point of STR is worth like 4 damage per round on average), Guy can be either really good or really mediocre. Erk doesn't get nearly as much from being MAG blessed and has no real +30% crit option; both suffer from being cursed in their main stat. Also, Guy's SPD is so high that he can double some enemies with an iron blade despite the massive AS loss. I don't recall Erk doubling doubling with Elifre except against knights or really, REALLY slow enemies.

[Vorena]

The availability of better units a bad unit does not make. Not even mediocre. The only thing most players seem to have against him is the fact that Pent (and I suppose Athos as well) is in this game. Which isn't all that fair in my opinion, because basically after Pent joins he still delivers good enough combat to be considered for use.

Depends how you define the rating. If you rated mostly on straight up usefulness, it makes sense to rate a unit lower if other units can do the same thing he does, but they offer more.

You can say he has good combat, but all of the magic users in this game give similar combat. His durability is really only better than Lucius by a good amount. The rest he excels in about a point or two of defense and hit points over the others. That is not a whole lot when all the magic users will still get about 2HKO or 3HKO by physical units. Erk gives enough to be usable and not be a burden. I give him a 5.5/10. Its not a bad rating, but neither is it a good one.

Edited December 31, 2011 by -Valkyrie-

[Aethereal]

Compared to Guy who technically joins one chapter earlier, but practically the same chapter (because he sees maybe one fight in 13 if he's lucky)

Only quoting this part to address it directly: 13x exists, and Guy is really really good in it. Guy's moments to "shine" are easily duplicated by Raven, and are a bit too few and far between, but his durability is notably better, and there are several times that you can use him to dodge tank multiple axe enemies that Erk will never be able to do. Erk never really has any chapters where he's a particularly good unit, while Guy does, particularly because EP is so important in FE7 and Erk is generally not durable enough to be exposed.

[dondon151]

Like I said, Guy's performance is really reliant on his STR. Since growths allow for variable values of STR, and Guy scales really well with STR (he doubles and rocks a 50%+ crit chance post-promo with killing edge, so every point of STR is worth like 4 damage per round on average), Guy can be either really good or really mediocre. Erk doesn't get nearly as much from being MAG blessed and has no real +30% crit option;

So you're assuming that Guy is going to be str blessed. I don't need to point out what's wrong here.

both suffer from being cursed in their main stat. Also, Guy's SPD is so high that he can double some enemies with an iron blade despite the massive AS loss. I don't recall Erk doubling doubling with Elifre except against knights or really, REALLY slow enemies.

This is coming from the guy that thinks that Wil doesn't have trouble doubling enemies.

Erk doesn't need Elfire. He loses no AS from Thunder after promotion and Thunder only has 2 less MT than Elfire.

[zahlman]

Pwns Lucius in like every possible way. Not necessary, but doesn't exactly hurt to use. He'll still be < Pent even if used, but does at least have the advantage of availability. Of course there are lots of other ways to do (most of) the things that offensive magic does, and sometimes those high-def-but-low-res units have 1-2 range too.

6/10.

[Thor Odinson]

(unlike Raven v. Guy, where Raven is better, but not really by much honestly, especially once Guy gets the 15% crit)

I dunno, mang. Handaxes+better overall stats>>>>>>>>>>15crit considering Guy face WTD most of the time and has no reliable 2 range. Plus his strength is kinda ass and swords have ass mt and he's stuck to using that. Raven, on the other hand, even in his minimum 5 level worth of swordlock, at least has good strength to make up for it. And Handaxes are E rank so he can use it on the promoted getgo with WTA on most enemies.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

So you're assuming that Guy is going to be str blessed. I don't need to point out what's wrong here.

Woosh. I say Guy benefits more from being STR blessed than Erk does from being MAG blessed, and both are hard to justify fielding when notably STR/MAG cursed due to sharp competition from similar characters (Raven for Guy; Lucius for Erk). So when one character benefits more from being blessed and both suffer roughly equally from being cursed, then wouldn't it make sense that it weights it in one character's favor?

And don't give me "average only" bullshit. I've yet to get a character that exactly hits every average in every stat, and there's a significant chance that Guy/Erk will be blessed/cursed. When even small blessings/cursings dramatically change the performance of a character (1 STR = ~4 dmg/round for Guy), why is it wrong to not mention them in a fair comparison? It's obviously not appropriate for many comparisons, but it seems apt for somebody like Guy.

This is coming from the guy that thinks that Wil doesn't have trouble doubling enemies.

Erk doesn't need Elfire. He loses no AS from Thunder after promotion and Thunder only has 2 less MT than Elfire.

No, Wil is fast enough to double a fair portion of the game. It's not that Wil isn't slow, it's that enemy AS in FE7 doesn't scale for shit until maybe the last few chapters, where it mildly rises as promoted enemies start to become semi-common. Wil also gets the Brave Bow in Dragon's Gate to ensure he'll basically have two attacks every round until his SPD is high enough to double, which should be right around the time you get killers. For anybody who's not Dorcas or Oswin or Wallace or possibly Bartre, SPD in FE7 is simply a measure of how long it'll take you to double, not whether you WILL double. But what does this have to do with Erk v. Guy?

Also, the point was that Guy is fast enough (his AS is SO much higher than the enemy's) to double with even heavy, higher MT weapons, whereas Erk cannot. Guy is "sufficient" with a steel sword like Erk is "sufficient" with thunder, but Guy still gets the option of a higher MT weapon against a fair number of enemies (or killing edge), whereas Erk doesn't even have that option because Elfire will almost always be a worse option than Thunder because it's simply too heavy in FE7.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[General Horace]

This could get interesting, I'm gonna watch from the sidelines on this one.

Anyway, Erk is a pretty solid character. Whereas Lucius might face OHKO's before promotion against steel lance wyverns, Erk is usually jussssst durable enough to escape this, which can be a small advantage he has over him. That small nitpick aside, Erk is very good offensively early on, providing some hefty chip damage, and is one of few units early on that can ORKO knights. Upon promotion, he easily hits the magical 13AS mark, and hits resistance, and gets a pretty good defensive boost. The only thing he has against him is (if lacking LHM) low base level, and Guiding Ring competition. And I guess his hovering around 50 growth rates.

He gets a 7 from me.

KoT, if you're assuming a strength blessing on Guy, give Erk a speed blessing, and he wrecks shit.

Edited December 31, 2011 by General Horace

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

KoT, if you're assuming a strength blessing on Guy, give Erk a speed blessing, and he wrecks shit.

Fair enough, but Erk's always been high enough in my playthroughs to double practically everything with roughly average SPD, much like Guy does. Let me double check.

EDIT: Yeah, Erk has enough AS to double almost everything in the game by like level 18/--. It usually takes Erk until 20/2 (since he gets no SPD from promo, make that 15/7 or 10/12 for effiency or whenever you feel like promoting him) to double 8 AS enemies with Elfire, which are around what they are in C22-24, right before Pent comes and outshines Erk.

EDIT2: Right around midgame, Erk needs to be around 3-4 SPD blessed IIRC to start doubling (<=7-8 AS) most enemies with Elfire. This gives about 4 more damage per round, but won't work against faster enemies (mercs, myrms). Guy gets around 4-6 more damage per round from 2-3 STR blessing assuming no crit boost weapons, and it works against practically every enemy (unless this extra STR makes him still tink them -- very unlikely -- or they can't be doubled by Guy -- again, very unlikely)

EDIT3: Lumi, I meant more on an axe vs. 15% crit only issue. I mean, the differences in stats between Guy and Raven exist even before promotion, and Guy goes a vital 2 STR on promo. That being said, 15% crit is brutal, but so is hand axe. Hmm...I still think promo helps out Guy more than Raven, simply because it increases his STR AND his STR scaling, but not by a whole bunch. I didn't mean to discount the awesome-ness of FE7 1-2 range weps.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Bluedoom]

Guy is fine in the front lines with HHM bonuses. He has a high base HP, HHM helps his DEF/STR, and he ends up notably more durable than Erk. Erk also has the issue that Lucius tends to be better than him most of the time (Lucius is pretty insane offensively), doubling more reliably and hitting harder; Erk only shines when he can survive something Lucius cannot or in Living Legend, where every flier and magic user is deployed in S-rank or efficiency runs. The reasons to use Erk dwindle to near nothingness when Pent comes on to the scene, since he's just SO...MUCH...BETTER (unlike Raven v. Guy, where Raven is better, but not really by much honestly, especially once Guy gets the 15% crit) and Lucius will likely take the second caster slot.

Like I said, Guy's performance is really reliant on his STR. Since growths allow for variable values of STR, and Guy scales really well with STR (he doubles and rocks a 50%+ crit chance post-promo with killing edge, so every point of STR is worth like 4 damage per round on average), Guy can be either really good or really mediocre. Erk doesn't get nearly as much from being MAG blessed and has no real +30% crit option; both suffer from being cursed in their main stat. Also, Guy's SPD is so high that he can double some enemies with an iron blade despite the massive AS loss. I don't recall Erk doubling doubling with Elifre except against knights or really, REALLY slow enemies.

I need to remind you that killing edge has TWENTY USES. And since guy doubles and with the 50% crit rate, its likely that out of those only 10 uses are used up in criticals. He's most likely going to be killing 6-7 enemies with the killing edge crits and then at max ten enemies go to his blade. Maybe higher, but relying on critials is not good(and you're assuming he's using it as a SM, how does he get there in the first place?)After that his offense is PATHETIC- even for that chip damage you must put him at a risk of counterattack while Erk can do so a lot of times without facing a counterattack- btw, if you think iron blade is worth on Guy even if he doubles with it, you've ignored Guy's main selling point- his dodging. With huge AS loss he can't dosge good- his speed is as good as Raven's and he's certainly doing either as much damage as Lowen or maybe higher than that- I'm not too sure on that.

Now I think its safe to say Erk can get at LEAST two levels in LHM. Heck, it is definetly possible to get Erk to lvl 5, I just dunno how much it'd affect an S-ranked playthrough.

Lvl 3 Erk-

19 HP, 6 Mag, 7 SKL, 9 SPD, 4 LUCK, 2 DEF, 7 RES

Lvl 5 Erk-

21 HP, 8 Mag,8 SKL, 9/10 SPD, 4 LUCK, 3 DEF, 7 RES

Base Guy(HHM)-

25 HP, 8 Str, 13 SKL, 13 SPD, 5 Luck, 6 DEF, 1 RES

Guy will most likely have a + 4 HP and a + 3 Def over Erk. It seems like a lot, until you realize that you face lance users who have good hit rates on Guy, who's AS gets weighed down a lot by Steel Swords and Iron Blades. And suddenly that impressive 13 AS is now gone to 8 AS and 6 AS respectively. Oh yeah, the so called killing edge weighs his AS to 11. Compared to Erk's AS with Thunder( 7/8), he doesn't have any REAL offensive or defensive leads. They're both about the same defensively. Erk targets resistance too, and his speed growth will ensure he gets over those few AS problems he has. Guy's stronger weapons and Lower con will NEVER be solved.

Yes Raven is much better than guy. Better Str, better con, Ditto Spd and overall better AS. Hand Axes on promotion, or axes in general make him more awesome. He doesnt need a kiling edge to function and can do more damage using a killing edge( while unpromoted of course.) His bases are superior to Guy's and he comes slightly later but not too late, making Guy moot.

I'd prefer a Magic user over asword user who can't do damage or dodge well. Erk actually does some good chip damage and is not a real bad unit to use even lategame.

EDIT: Read your response to Lumi. Discard the Raven vs Guy arguement.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Marth

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

I need to remind you that killing edge has TWENTY USES. And since guy doubles and with the 50% crit rate, its likely that out of those only 10 uses are used up in criticals. He's most likely going to be killing 6-7 enemies with the killing edge crits and then at max ten enemies go to his blade. Maybe higher, but relying on critials is not good(and you're assuming he's using it as a SM, how does he get there in the first place?)After that his offense is PATHETIC- even for that chip damage you must put him at a risk of counterattack while Erk can do so a lot of times without facing a counterattack- btw, if you think iron blade is worth on Guy even if he doubles with it, you've ignored Guy's main selling point- his dodging. With huge AS loss he can't dosge good- his speed is as good as Raven's and he's certainly doing either as much damage as Lowen or maybe higher than that- I'm not too sure on that.

1. The 50% crit rate is post-promo. It's closer to 35-40% pre-promo. Sorry if I didn't clarify.

2. People seem to suggest that's the ONLY killing edge in the game. There are plenty available once you hit later mid- and late-game.

3. Intelligent use between iron sword and steel sword allows Guy to balance dodge and ATK. If you don't need steel to ORKO or finish off an enemy, just go iron. That doesn't mitigate your point, I just wanted to say Guy isn't ALWAYS going to use steel (just a fair portion of the time).

4. I generally notice Guy doing better damage than Lowen early-game, at least (and likely late-game too with the 15% crit boost).

Now I think its safe to say Erk can get at LEAST two levels in LHM. Heck, it is definetly possible to get Erk to lvl 5, I just dunno how much it'd affect an S-ranked playthrough.

Lvl 3 Erk-

19 HP, 6 Mag, 7 SKL, 9 SPD, 4 LUCK, 2 DEF, 7 RES

Lvl 5 Erk-

21 HP, 8 Mag,8 SKL, 9/10 SPD, 4 LUCK, 3 DEF, 7 RES

Base Guy(HHM)-

25 HP, 8 Str, 13 SKL, 13 SPD, 5 Luck, 6 DEF, 1 RES

Guy will most likely have a + 4 HP and a + 3 Def over Erk. It seems like a lot, until you realize that you face lance users who have good hit rates on Guy, who's AS gets weighed down a lot by Steel Swords and Iron Blades. And suddenly that impressive 13 AS is now gone to 8 AS and 6 AS respectively. Oh yeah, the so called killing edge weighs his AS to 11. Compared to Erk's AS with Thunder( 7/8), he doesn't have any offensive or defensive leads. Erk targets resistance too, and his speed growth will ensure he gets over those few AS problems he has. Guy's stronger weapons and Lower con will NEVER be solved.

I have no disagreements about level 5 Erk coming out of LHM. That's hardly unreasonable.

We're ignoring both the fact that Erk has a higher starting level than Guy or that Guy has a 20% higher SPD growth than Erk. Guy CAPS SPD by 13/--, Erk still has 16.5 SPD at 20/--. Never mind that Guy should be getting a level, maybe two, in 13x (I would like to mention he's a good candidate to kill the boss in that chapter, allowing Marcus to focus on the rush of enemies from the north; the boss alone gives Guy something around a full level), so it should be 4/-- Guy or 5/-- Guy versus 5/-- Erk in C14. Guy's AS is notably higher than Erk's in almost every other chapter but C14 or maybe C15.

Yes Raven is much better than guy. Better Str, better con, Ditto Spd and overall better AS. Hand Axes on promotion, or axes in general make him more awesome. He doesnt need a kiling edge to function and can do more damage using a killing edge( while unpromoted of course.) His bases are superior to Guy's and he comes slightly later but not too late, making Guy moot.

I'd prefer a Magic user over asword user who can't do damage or dodge well. Erk actually does some good chip damage and is not a real bad unit to use even lategame.

I never said (or, well, meant to say) that Raven wasn't better than Guy, just that Guy really benefits from his promotion and does catch up to Raven a little bit. But you just can't say Guy can't dodge well (even in HHM), and he has enough durability to take whatever hits do manage to land. While there are occasions where I might want 2 good sword users (Raven and Guy), Erk is worse imo than Lucius and Pent and there aren't nearly as many reasons to field 3 magic users.

EDIT: Of the early-game chapters:

C13x: Large number of sword users and axe users in the bottom-right corner. Notable number of nomads.

C14: Alright, lance-fest. Most lance-users are taken care of by Marcus or Hector...you can have Guy take care of the mercs.

C15: About halfway through the chapter, massive waves of axe-users come in for the throne. Guy can solo them with ease (their hit rates of him are balls) and gain a level or two in the process.

C16: Mix of all three. Guy is prefectly fine in this chapter (his high defensive bases for a myrm carry him through without trouble), although he can die if you're reckless with him.

C17: Bow-fest. Archers, more archers, and nomads. There are a few knights, but Hector/Marcus take care of them without breaking a sweat on their way to the boss.

C17x: This chapter SCREAMS sword users, with one lance user to deal with the swordslayer and Damian.

C18: Mostly filled with sword users and pegasi. Pegasi have the odd feature of hitting Guy hard but having a low-ish hit rate against him. It's a bit of a gamble, but it's not like fielding Guy is a bad idea, especially since HHM bases + the levels from 13x, 15, and 17x make him rather strong by this point. Raven suffers similar issues.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[General Horace]

Guy getting +2 strength upon promotion is nothing compared to Raven getting Hand Axes.

[eclipse]

Meh. Erk's personality is nothing special, but being the only thing to hit RES for a few chapters is useful. . .and not being a total pain in the neck to recruit's helpful, too, I guess. With LHM, he should gain a few levels, which means he'll do decent. His staff rank's bleh, but that's what Serra's for, right?

6.5/10

[Bluedoom]

1. The 50% crit rate is post-promo. It's closer to 35-40% pre-promo. Sorry if I didn't clarify.

2. People seem to suggest that's the ONLY killing edge in the game. There are plenty available once you hit later mid- and late-game.

3. Intelligent use between iron sword and steel sword allows Guy to balance dodge and ATK. If you don't need steel to ORKO or finish off an enemy, just go iron. That doesn't mitigate your point, I just wanted to say Guy isn't ALWAYS going to use steel (just a fair portion of the time).

4. I generally notice Guy doing better damage than Lowen early-game, at least (and likely late-game too with the 15% crit boost).

I have no disagreements about level 5 Erk coming out of LHM. That's hardly unreasonable.

We're ignoring both the fact that Erk has a higher starting level than Guy or that Guy has a 20% higher SPD growth than Erk. Guy CAPS SPD by 13/--, Erk still has 16.5 SPD at 20/--. Never mind that Guy should be getting a level, maybe two, in 13x (I would like to mention he's a good candidate to kill the boss in that chapter, allowing Marcus to focus on the rush of enemies from the north; the boss alone gives Guy something around a full level), so it should be 4/-- Guy or 5/-- Guy versus 5/-- Erk in C14. Guy's AS is notably higher than Erk's in almost every other chapter but C14 or maybe C15.

I never said (or, well, meant to say) that Raven wasn't better than Guy, just that Guy really benefits from his promotion and does catch up to Raven a little bit. But you just can't say Guy can't dodge well (even in HHM), and he has enough durability to take whatever hits do manage to land. While there are occasions where I might want 2 good sword users (Raven and Guy), Erk is worse imo than Lucius and Pent and there aren't nearly as many reasons to field 3 magic users.

1. Ah, that's where I was getting too. I meant that he has the 30% chance as an unpromoted unit. He needs that killing edge to get him through stuff in the first place. So he's most likely using up that killing edge in earlygame itself if he wants reliable kills.

2. People are not trying to say that's the only killing edge you get, they're trying to say that Guy's superior offense lasts as long as he has the killing edge with him. Then its back to mediocrity in earlygame, against lance users. His flaws start to show real quickly.

3. I cant really argue what you said.

4. Likely, since he doubles.

Except we're talking about fe7, a game where you require a certain amount of speed to double. Erk certainly gets his speed well and although 50% looks average, he's most likely getting his speed slightly quciker than most units and that already puts him in an advantage. Rounding 16.5, 17 spd/ 15 AS at 20 is not that bad. Maybe bring it down to lvl 15- an AS of 12/13 is not really bad in a game where enemies have really bad AS. If anything, Guy's extra speed is helping him counter his con/AS loss problem( and with Iron blade/Steel Sword he leads Erk's lvl 15 AS with Thunder by 2, xD) or matches Erk's AS.

'Well Erk has a durability lead over Lucius and will certainly have it over Pent too, in terms of HP. The reason why people generally choose Pent over Erk is because Pent has insta A Staves. Erk's magic by the time you get Pent will be probably the same or higher, and will eventually topple Pent's. His Spd will definetly be higher, as will his HP. Maybe Resistance, I might be pushing it. Also there arent many chapters you'd want two good sword users- 13 x Guy's the only one, and Fargus' chapter is trivial if you get someone like Marcus/Sain/Kent over to Fargus in very few turns. No other chapter has a high number of axe users, and bad thing is Guy is swordlocked. I'd like more magic users over sword users since they are versatile, have same movement and target resistance in general. Oh yes, Erk also has an offensive advantage over Canas for quite sometime.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Marth