FE13: A Faustian Bargain?

[Thor Odinson]

That's not the point. The point is that some dudes like looking at girls' legs and if everybody wore pants, unless it's tight pants, doesn't really show off legs. Can't blame them. If every dude was shirtless, I'd be almost cool with that except the impracticality part. And characters like Gheb.

Though, skirts are not too bad if they're mobile enough, since the Romans did wear them (Tunics, but whatever it's not pants) and considered people who wore pants barbarians. Pants just offer more protection, thin enough as cloth is, so I feel they're optimal for battlewear and everyone should wear them.

It's just that when it's those skirts that sucks to be moving in, I wonder why do they ever make it on to the battle field.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Luminescent Blade

[Arch]

Nice to see some good discussion on my food-for-thought. Never said that it was a bad move, but it definitely feels different. Still, quite funny to be called a hipster for the analysis .

Refa, the skill system is much different than FE10's. Skills can basically be swapped around like items now, freely. 10 also didn't have all hear minor buff skills like something out of Final Fantasy. In Fire Emblem, skills have always been personally attached to characters, with a few manuals and scrolls to trade around. Under this new system, skills are no longer personal, they're just another thing to trick-out your character.

Regarding the art-style, although the specifics have varied throughout the series, the games have adopted a creative yet simple approach to character design. Now we've got this anime/Final Fantasy/Persona mix going on with these designs that are either convoluted or completely bland. It's definitely a marked departure from Fire Emblem's norm and a leap towards a more typical and mainstream anime style.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Arch

[Thor Odinson]

While I would like the designs to stay in the vein of FE, it wouldn't have bothered me if the designs were different, yet practical. After all, it's a new country,new continent, new outfit styles should be explored. I like the previous FE designs because most of it is fairly practical despite my personal vendetta against skirts.

This is why I like Sumia's design. Her armour feels it's based off of actual suits of armour. Might just be the colouration and all, but at least from what I can see, it looks like something you can comfortably fight in. Chrome's feels a bit Ikeish, but it's alright and it doesn't look impractical either. On the other side, just from what I've seen in the screens, I have the biggest issues with that chain on the fighter guy's neck, and Liz's skirt like I said in a few posts already. The magi's cloaks kinda bother me as well, as they don't look very mobile. I'll withold judgement from the whole thing until I see every one of the designs, though. Hopefully Liz is just a weird outlier.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Luminescent Blade

[General Banzai]

That's not the point. The point is that some dudes like looking at girls' legs and if everybody wore pants, unless it's tight pants, doesn't really show off legs. Can't blame them. If every dude was shirtless, I'd be almost cool with that except the impracticality part. And characters like Gheb.

Though, skirts are not too bad if they're mobile enough, since the Romans did wear them (Tunics, but whatever it's not pants) and considered people who wore pants barbarians. Pants just offer more protection, thin enough as cloth is, so I feel they're optimal for battlewear and everyone should wear them.

It's just that when it's those skirts that sucks to be moving in, I wonder why do they ever make it on to the battle field.

Well Eirika says a skirt makes it easier to move in. The real problem is when horse riders or pegasus riders are wearing skirts. That's just ridiculous.

[Thor Odinson]

Maybe that's for Eirika, and she does wear a fairly flowy skirt that allows mobility. Pants that are decently fitted (aka not too loose that it's hanging off you and not too tight that it's crushing your balls or your nonexistent balls) are just as good in terms of mobility. Who the fuck wears skinny jeans to battle anyway? That's even to say that they had the equivalent of skinny jeans.

I kinda wanna smack whoever did Miledy's and Vaida's design. Love those two, but no pants or at least tights riding Dragons? Gotta be kidding me. Whoever designed Jill is doing it right.

[fatgamecat]

I'm not worried about the combat mechanics. There's nothing wrong with trying something new.

What they shouldn't do is reduce the content variety from FE DS #2, or fail to include a scoring system. If every chapter is "move from point A to B then slap down the boss", and there's no scoring system that penalizes FE2 or FE8 style grinding, then I might as well not even play the game, as it would be just another shallow, boring, and skill-less sandbox mess like Final Fantasy Tactics or Tactics Ogre.

[shadowofchaos]

It has had a different feel for me ever since the first trailer. Like... the art style of Disgaea or Final Fantasy Tactics... somewhere around there. Not the art style itself becoming more like those games, (Disgaea, though never played it, I know has a style that FE will probably never take) but the "feel" of it.

I honestly see as the experiment as a good thing. They're trying to do something at least. It's going to make it, or it's going to fail. It's that simple. Why not give it a chance?

[Lord Raven]

I'm not worried about the combat mechanics. There's nothing wrong with trying something new.

What they shouldn't do is reduce the content variety from FE DS #2, or fail to include a scoring system. If every chapter is "move from point A to B then slap down the boss", and there's no scoring system that penalizes FE2 or FE8 style grinding, then I might as well not even play the game, as it would be just another shallow, boring, and skill-less sandbox mess like Final Fantasy Tactics or Tactics Ogre.

What, are you the type of person that gets into every single skirmish possible in FE8 while abusing the Tower of Valni to 20/20? Because if that's how you play, more power to you.

It's funny how people harp on a game for a (mostly) optional portion of it. Is it so hard not to grind?

[Arch]

This experiment could go either way, and it's definitely nice to see Intelligent Systems finally doing something. However, from what I'm seeing so far it just feels like, instead of innovating and preserving the series' uniqueness, it's lifting elements straight out of other games and leaping towards a more common, more mainstream style and feel. It's different, certainly, and maybe it's a change for the better. Who knows? The mainstream isn't inherently wrong all the time, and we'll have to wait and see how it all unfolds. It just seems like Fire Emblem's selling a bit of its soul to appeal to that mainstream audience. But hey, this could just be the series reboot that Fire Emblem needs to finally start growing again (at least, as I pointed out before, I think that's Nintendo's plan for FE13).

Edited January 4, 2012 by Arch

[Lord Raven]

In my opinion, an innovation is more about how every individual thing mixes as opposed to whether or not those individual things are innovative. The standard Fire Emblem gameplay is obviously intact, we just don't know yet how the other elements will affect it.

[Arch]

I think that individual elements compose what is an overall innovative experience, and so far it looks like we aren't going in that direction. It looks like we're giving a big embrace to the mainstream, copying other tactical RPGs, their ideas, and their approaches. Heck, FE13's even doing DLC (in a series that doesn't need it) because, ya know, everyone else is doing it too (plus, being the first on the 3DS is part of Nintendo's spotlight strategy). Like I said, it may still be too soon to tell and I may be totally wrong, but this is just what I make of what we're seeing thus far.

[Lord Raven]

I don't think we should be expecting anywhere near an FFT type Emblem. The two are about as radically different as one can get when you're comparing two games of the same Genre.

[grandjackal]

How is not throwing all past innovations into a blender and throwing it all into one game not an innovation itself? Fire Emblem is a series that was born in a business suit and was straight as an arrow on day one with fancy little ideas every game. FE13 as I see it is the series's way of loosening it's tie, letting it's hair down, and throwing a huge-ass party.

And I feel that FE13 is gonna make one hell of a mixed drink.

[Othin]

Change is good. Change means we might get a non-remake with gameplay that's also not a stripped-down FE5 rehash for the first time in 10 years.

[Ike-Mike]

It doesn't look like Fire Emblem anymore, it looks like your general anime.

Except anime in general isn't mainstream.

With that already your argument falls apart.

I think that the intention of FE13 is the exact opposite, instead of making it mainstream FE is now trying to establish itself as a niche SRPG for niche gamers.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Ike-Mike

[Anouleth]

But Mike, anime style is more mainstream, unless you're trying to tell me that Pokemon, Final Fantasy aren't mainstream.

To be honest, the clthing style reminds me o the Tales games. And that's not a good thing. I liked how ealier FEs had clothing that looked practical. I suppose that was more because of the limitations of having a small portrait bx an 15olours to work with rather tha any conscious plan on the parts of the developers, but it still lookedbetter.

[fatgamecat]

What, are you the type of person that gets into every single skirmish possible in FE8 while abusing the Tower of Valni to 20/20? Because if that's how you play, more power to you.

What even gave you the idea to ask such a clueless rhetorical question?

It's funny how people harp on a game for a (mostly) optional portion of it. Is it so hard not to grind?

It's funny how you have no clue what you're talking about. The first, most important rule of objectively analyzing any game is that you may not arbitrarily ignore parts of the game or game rules for any reason. That means covering your eyes and shouting "just ignore that part of the games rules!" is a poor statement from the outset. You can whine and apologize for lazy or incompetent developers all you like, it's still their responsibility to implement an accurate and useful scoring system, not the players job to try to make some sense of their grind filled mess.

[Ike-Mike]

But Mike, anime style is more mainstream, unless you're trying to tell me that Pokemon, Final Fantasy aren't mainstream.

It looks like the sort of anime style that's supposed to attract the Sankaku crowd, though.

And the criticisms towards the designs are growing with each new game both with Pokemon and Final Fantasy.

[grandjackal]

And the criticisms towards the designs are growing with each new game both with Pokemon and Final Fantasy.

I thought Black and White got a positive reception with it's designs.

Final Fantasy I can understand though. Anime style or no, the direction it's taken is simply just silly.

[VincentASM]

I was kind of joking to myself that "Awakening" was a reference to IS waking up and trying to gear FE towards the masses. I guess the inclusion of the paid DLC is a possible hint towards this direction.

As far as I'm aware, the top honchos at IS really want to push FE, but as consoles get more complicated, the budget to make a blockbuster FE increases beyond what they can handle. They've mentioned in the past that they will create FEs meant to sell (aka FE6-8) if it'll help them fund the FE that they want to make (FE9 and 10).

Unfortunately, I dunno about IS's expectations, but FE9 and 10's sales were pretty average for a FE game, so I wouldn't be surprised if they're trying to win back money with FE11, 12 and now 13 to fund their WiiU FE or something.

[eclipse]

If FE13 will help fund a FE12 localization by IS, I'll support it, even if the mechanics make me cry.

[Wooster]

Err... isn't that backwards? Ignoring for an instant that New Mystery is for an expired system (hence not bothering to localize), New Mystery reuses the same engine as Shadow Dragon (thus the tools already exist to localize). If nothing else New Mystery would be cheaper then Awakening since it has an original engine, scenario and an emphasis on 3D graphics (which are significantly more expensive then sprites).

What ASM means is the creators have to bend backward and do cheap safe games so they can pony up when they want to do the 'creative' works they really want to. Judging by the fact that the previous two games were remakes, I'm going to put my chips in that Awakening is one of those ambitious titles. Besides, aside from a large screen, what would the WiiU have that the 3DS doesn't? Tactical RPGs use the second screen exceptionally well, and the 3DS graphics are nothing to sneeze at. ( I think I read that they're on par with the Wii).

With the WiiU, it's strengths lie in getting the family and/or friends together. Motion is a much more important, defining characteristic of the system (Which unfortunately means waggle when the Devs don't know what to do). As for the tablet controller...it does function as a second screen, yes. So it would work, but, the default inclination would be to use the tablet to move characters around right? So that would mean the big TV screen would hold character stats, and likely combat. Seems a bit like a waste on the part of friends and whoever might decide to watch you play, not being able to see the tactics in this tactical RPG.

On the other hand, I'm not a Dev, and my imagination scope is likewise limited, so it would rely on them to turn what I see as a flaw into an advantage.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Wooster

[Original Alear]

Refa, the skill system is much different than FE10's. Skills can basically be swapped around like items now, freely.

Actually, you could do that in FE10 too...there was a capacity limit but besides certain skills being limited to physical units only or certain laguz/beorc only, you could pretty much give any unit any skill.

It's funny how you have no clue what you're talking about. The first, most important rule of objectively analyzing any game is that you may not arbitrarily ignore parts of the game or game rules for any reason. That means covering your eyes and shouting "just ignore that part of the games rules!" is a poor statement from the outset. You can whine and apologize for lazy or incompetent developers all you like, it's still their responsibility to implement an accurate and useful scoring system, not the players job to try to make some sense of their grind filled mess.

Actually, I think that player freedom to ignore optional aspects of the game is rather important...and there's no rule anywhere that says game designers have a responsibility to implement scoring systems, so I don't know where you got that from. I mean really, you can't just remember whether you used the Tower of Valni or not??

[General Banzai]

IS has indicated that the FEs they want to make are all on consoles.

I don't get this whole mainstream thing. It's an SRPG, that's the opposite of mainstream. You can't make a mainstream SRPG because there are none.

With the WiiU, it's strengths lie in getting the family and/or friends together. Motion is a much more important, defining characteristic of the system (Which unfortunately means waggle when the Devs don't know what to do).

You got that backwards. Motion is less important, and the console is designed specifically to win back the "hardcore" crowd. They have a controller with a complete button set and analog stick. The whole line of reasoning behind the title is that U play the way U want to play; it's meant to appeal to a vaster range of audiences than the Wii.

It's funny how you have no clue what you're talking about. The first, most important rule of objectively analyzing any game is that you may not arbitrarily ignore parts of the game or game rules for any reason. That means covering your eyes and shouting "just ignore that part of the games rules!" is a poor statement from the outset. You can whine and apologize for lazy or incompetent developers all you like, it's still their responsibility to implement an accurate and useful scoring system, not the players job to try to make some sense of their grind filled mess.

1. It's not part of the rules

2. If every game where it is impossible to grind was automatically bad, then... every single RPG in the history of ever is bad. Hell, even earlier FEs have Arena Abuse.

Edited January 4, 2012 by General Banzai

[Blademaster!]

It's funny how you have no clue what you're talking about.

You should listen to your own advice. Part of what makes RPG's so much fun to play is that you can customize how you play the game using your own rules, hence why things like Nuzlocke runs in pokemon exist. I know for a fact that Golden Sun Dark Dawn was made with this mindset in place, and I still remember the SSBM game manual encouraging players to do such things to add on to their own enjoyment of the game.