riariadne Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 really fucking good but only exists for 1 chapter 3/10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Please. Light is one of the best places to acquire tons of experience is a short amount of time, and I'll point out that experience is without question the toughest rank to 5* in HHM. If you've already finished the experience rank by Light, then that means you've gone through a whole lot of unnecessary trouble to farm experience just to use Athos in the final chapter. I hardly think that's a point in his favor. no it's not also if you haven't finished exp by the final chapter, you must be cutting it extremely close, which means that you've spent a thorough amount of time figuring out how not to use athos excellent endgame unit who can easily handle over half of the final chapter. really wants that chapter 31 body ring 4/10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geriba Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 no it's not also if you haven't finished exp by the final chapter, you must be cutting it extremely close, which means that you've spent a thorough amount of time figuring out how not to use athos excellent endgame unit who can easily handle over half of the final chapter. really wants that chapter 31 body ring 4/10 You know better than that, dondon. If you've already accounted for the experience rank in full, that means you've been pulling unnecessary weight for far too long. Remember that one late chapter where you needed to bodyguard an underleveled unit, feeding it kills with great caution and frustration? How about that early game chapter where you could've shaved off a couple turns if only you could've gotten the experience at a later time? Say, Light? Bottom line, it's unfair to assume for the purposes of ranked ratings that the player has over performed, making Athos artificially useful; I could assume that just the opposite has occurred, and that the player is UNDER prepared, making Athos' use drop from little to nothing. This has nothing to do with personal experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frat_tastic Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 2.5/10. So late, really really useful when he's there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Bottom line, it's unfair to assume for the purposes of ranked ratings that the player has over performed, making Athos artificially useful; I could assume that just the opposite has occurred, and that the player is UNDER prepared, making Athos' use drop from little to nothing. This has nothing to do with personal experience. If the player is underprepared going into the final chapter, then he is most likely screwed. There is not a huge amount of EXP available in the map, but furthermore, deployment slots are extremely limited, and the bosses here are not the pushover berserkers in chapter 32x. You can't just sit back and laugh as an under leveled sword user slaughters everything in sight. Let's say that we have a set consisting of all ranked playthroughs. Assume that half of the entries are playthroughs where EXP rank is achieved with the most abuse of Athos. Assume also that half of the entries are playthroughs where EXP rank is not achieved with the most abuse of Athos. Of the latter set, there is a significant subset of playthroughs where even if the player didn't use Athos at all, he would not be able to achieve the EXP rank. If this is the case, then Athos being bad for the EXP rank doesn't matter. Assume that the final chapter has a total EXP yield of 2000 EXP, which estimates a full level of EXP per enemy on the map (this is hugely generous; I think most players don't even get more than 1200 EXP on this map). The player needs to fall exactly in that 2000 EXP window in order for Athos's participation to be actively detrimental. That's extremely unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geriba Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 The player needs to fall exactly in that 2000 EXP window in order for Athos's participation to be actively detrimental. That's extremely unlikely. This is where I feel our disconnect lies. I'd say that a player proactively trying to maximize experience gain in Light (without taking too long, since that would impact Tactics) can realistically expect 1200-1500 experience. If Athos kills a promoted unit, that's a potential 100 down the train. All I'm arguing is that, for the purposes of ranking, it's odd to assume that the player has over-prepared. Don't you agree that the best system is to follow ranking requirements up to that point? Athos can staff-spam (expendable, but he's the best at it aside from movement) and he can weaken certain enemies in Light for your weaker units (again, not at all unique in this regard); all this while only being available for one chapter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 You know better than that, dondon. If you've already accounted for the experience rank in full, that means you've been pulling unnecessary weight for far too long. Remember that one late chapter where you needed to bodyguard an underleveled unit, feeding it kills with great caution and frustration? How about that early game chapter where you could've shaved off a couple turns if only you could've gotten the experience at a later time? Say, Light? Trying to gain experience in Light is kind of dumb. Let's see, you can either try to kill a bunch of roided-up bosses with S Rank weapons (which harms funds rank if they use any uses of them, Bottom line, it's unfair to assume for the purposes of ranked ratings that the player has over performed, making Athos artificially useful; I could assume that just the opposite has occurred, and that the player is UNDER prepared, making Athos' use drop from little to nothing. This has nothing to do with personal experience. Yet you assume that the player has underperformed in EXP and overperformed in Tactics. The converse could easily be true. And indeed, it usually is true since most players seem to understand that it's a lot easier to gain your EXP from trash generics than Uhai and his 43ATK/28AS/19CRIT, rather than "rarely" true as you claim. I certainly think it's unfair to give Athos 0 points for his ranked performance. And while he might be great for one chapter, many characters in this game are great for zero chapters. This is where I feel our disconnect lies. I'd say that a player proactively trying to maximize experience gain in Light (without taking too long, since that would impact Tactics) can realistically expect 1200-1500 experience. If Athos kills a promoted unit, that's a potential 100 down the train. All I'm arguing is that, for the purposes of ranking, it's odd to assume that the player has over-prepared. Don't you agree that the best system is to follow ranking requirements up to that point? Athos can staff-spam (expendable, but he's the best at it aside from movement) and he can weaken certain enemies in Light for your weaker units (again, not at all unique in this regard); all this while only being available for one chapter. In order for one of your units to gain 100 exp off one of the level 20 enemies in Light, they would need to be approximately 20 levels below them... so basically it's not going to happens short of a Assassin getting off a Silencer and you're hardlygoing to have 20/1 Matthew Silence every enemy in Light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geriba Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 1) S-Rank weapons cost an absolute fortune, so they won't be getting used. 2) My "standard" is to assume that the player is right around the expected requirements going into Light, which means he'll need a modest but important performance in experience to end the game. Is that really a controversial position? 3) Even if Athos is fielded, he does next to nothing. How many turns does he save, exactly? 2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) 2) My "standard" is to assume that the player is right around the expected requirements going into Light, which means he'll need a modest but important performance in experience to end the game. Is that really a controversial position? Well, yes. You're assuming that the player is going to fail EXP, because there's no way anyone is going to get 3000 EXP in the final chapter alone. Your assumption is also relatively inflexible compared to the broad scope of possible assumptions for the final chapter. 2 turns is significant. Many characters in the game yield a net savings of 0 turns because what they do is copied exactly by another unit. In an LTC setting, Athos's contribution is likely more than 2 turns because there are literally no other units who can ORKO bosses or reliably cause them to kill each other. Edited January 31, 2012 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Because Forblaze costs a LOT of money (/sarcasm). If you're so worried about your funds that you can't take a hit or three off a S-Rank weapon, you're probably not playing carefully. Edited January 31, 2012 by eclipse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geriba Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Well, yes. You're assuming that the player is going to fail EXP, because there's no way anyone is going to get 3000 EXP in the final chapter alone. Your assumption is also relatively inflexible compared to the broad scope of possible assumptions for the final chapter. 2 turns is significant. Many characters in the game yield a net savings of 0 turns because what they do is copied exactly by another unit. In an LTC setting, Athos's contribution is likely more than 2 turns because there are literally no other units who can ORKO bosses or reliably cause them to kill each other. 1) No, I'm not assuming the player will fail to S-Rank. The experience rank is high for the final chapter, which the player will know ahead of time; instead of needing 3000 experience, then, let's say he needs, as I said, a modest but important experience gain. 2) Berserk utility has been noted. As for the rest of your post, you're opening up the Net-versus-Gross argument all over again, which is not a path worth going down. We'll just agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) 1) S-Rank weapons cost an absolute fortune, so they won't be getting used. Then you'd better kill the enemies quickly, since they don't care about your funds rank 2) My "standard" is to assume that the player is right around the expected requirements going into Light, which means he'll need a modest but important performance in experience to end the game. Is that really a controversial position? Yes, since a player will typically plan ahead and try to ensure a healthy buffer for EXP so he doesn't have to do really really stupid stuff like kill Brendan with a 20/1 unit. After all, is he really going to gain 2000 exp in Light? You'd basically have to clear Light with 20/1 units only in order to get that much experience. And even then you'd cut it real fine. EDIT: Okay, it's more like 3000 experience, so yeah, impossible. You simply can't assume that the player doesn't go into Light without an EXP buffer. 3) Even if Athos is fielded, he does next to nothing. How many turns does he save, exactly? 2? How many turns do dumbshits like Wil and Wallace save? Edited January 31, 2012 by Anouleth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geriba Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Yes, since a player will typically plan ahead and try to ensure a healthy buffer for EXP so he doesn't have to do really really stupid stuff like kill Brendan with a 20/1 unit. Not fielding an underleveled unit in Light means you've fielded an underleveled in some other chapter (multiple chapters, really, since Light's all promoted units). All I'm suggesting is that you don't assume some unrealistic experience buffer. Speaking of which... EDIT: Okay, it's more like 3000 experience, so yeah, impossible. You simply can't assume that the player doesn't go into Light without an EXP buffer. No one's assuming that. I am assuming that the player doesn't have a 30-level buffer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethereal Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 No one's assuming that. The expected requirements, which you said you assume, are 3000 EXP. Also, if you've been "keeping up" with the EXP rank throughout the game, then 32x provides a ridiculous buffer, and a much better opportunity to train than in Light. I don't remember exactly how many levels I got, but I had Guy and Legault basically push me over the EXP rank and then some in the chapter on my recent run. That's a much easier task to accomplish then wasting funds and combat using mediocre units instead of Athos. For my money, give me Athos as a 9/10 if we're still not factoring availability, and a 3/10 if we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Not fielding an underleveled unit in Light means you've fielded an underleveled in some other chapter (multiple chapters, really, since Light's all promoted units). Fielding an underlevelled unit in another map is usually not such a big deal because generic stats aren't high. Fielding an underlevelled unit in Light is a big deal because the enemies are super tough. It's much easier to have level 10 Dorcas fight some level 15 Wyverns or have 20/1 Legault or Matthew fight Genesis Berserkers than it is to try and have a level 20/5 Erk manfully try and deal damage to Darin and pray nobody attacks him or crits him. All I'm suggesting is that you don't assume some unrealistic experience buffer. Speaking of which... 3000 exp isn't unrealistic. Balcerzak, for example, had a 4,000 EXP buffer going into Light, so he literally could have soloed with Athos. Or dondon who had a 11,000 exp buffer going into Victory or Death, so before the exp goldmine in Genesis. So I think that it's pretty realistic. No one's assuming that. I am assuming that the player doesn't have a 30-level buffer. You don't need a 30 level buffer to use Athos, but you shouldn't be trying to gain exp against really strong bosses when there are plenty of relatively very easy generics in the rest of the game. Edited February 1, 2012 by Anouleth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Anyway, Athos is 6.42 For those who gave 2 scores, one based on availability and one isn't, I just averaged them because each person puts different weight on availability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geriba Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 For what it's worth, you guys have convinced me on the usefulness of Athos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.