Snowy_One Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Tier lists are designed by people with a specific goal in mind and ranks the characters based on how well they achieve that goal. Coming online and using a tier list may not be the best idea if you are just starting out and/or not trying to achieve that goal. Devdan is not Nadved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 EXCEPTION 2: In FE5, due to the fatigue system and minimum chapter requirements, you will end up making use of more units than you otherwise would. 15-20 is normal for this game. I kind of disagree with this. Being aware of fatigue is fine but you don't need anywhere near this amount of "trained" units, and even with prepromo fill-ins this is too much. The better way to fight fatigue is to not fight every enemy you find (which also helps conserving weapon uses), and try to funnel the fatigue so that it ends up being superfluous. For example, if your Fergus just got 20 fatigue through fighting a whole wave of enemies and is close to falling over, either just have him take as many more enemies as possible or let him fight just enough so that he can participate next map. This spares your other units, and lets you get rid of a huge chunk of fatigue by letting Fergus sit out once. Generally I end up saving most of my S drinks for lategame where you need all those low HP staff chicks, but don't be afraid to use one when you need them. In fact, "don't be afraid to use anything if it helps you" is a great tip for all FEs, but FE5 in particular. Those prf weapons have 60 uses for a reason. Use them whenever they help. Especially the Hero Lance, I have never come close to seeing that thing break because of the indoor maps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 fatigue also accumulates at only 1 point per round of combat and high HP combat units (like dagda) can easily go 8+ maps without having to sit out a chapter. mekkah's point is right on the money - it kills 2 birds with 1 stone; you don't suffer from fatigue as much, and you won't eat through your prf weapons even with liberal use. just play faster, goddammit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I kind of disagree with this. Being aware of fatigue is fine but you don't need anywhere near this amount of "trained" units, and even with prepromo fill-ins this is too much. You're shooting yourself in the foot unless you use as many people as you can - I would say 15-20 is the minimum amount of units you should be using. Scrolls and 20 caps mean you're not affected by the reduced exp gain, especially in elite mode, and it's not like there are a lot of unsalvageable units. The game gives you about 50 units, why let most of them rot on the bench? just play faster, goddammit. 14. Slow and steady wins the race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 You're shooting yourself in the foot unless you use as many people as you can - I would say 15-20 is the minimum amount of units you should be using. Scrolls and 20 caps mean you're not affected by the reduced exp gain, especially in elite mode, and it's not like there are a lot of unsalvageable units. The game gives you about 50 units, why let most of them rot on the bench? When any unit will do, why bother training more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 14. Slow and steady wins the race. This is wrong when applied to so many circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethereal Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 14. Slow and steady wins the race. Not when the person you're racing is going fast and steady. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 When any unit will do, why bother training more? The easiest way to beat the fatigue system is to have so many units at your disposal, you never need to use a unit in two consecutive chapters. Obviously, training more people beyond that point is a waste of time. This is wrong when applied to so many circumstances. True, but in the 'how can an inexperienced player manage a difficult game mechanic', it is the right answer. Not when the person you're racing is going fast and steady. It's enough to easily beat the person going slow and unsteady. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 True, but in the 'how can an inexperienced player manage a difficult game mechanic', it is the right answer. pretty sure the right answer is to get better at the game and go faster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 there are some chapters that are made a lot harder by going slow anyway like BBD You /want/ to Paladin rush there no matter if you play casual or for speed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Better for new players to have enough characters that they don't need to worry about managing fatigue carefully. Levels aren't much of an issue anyway. Most important thing is, they shouldn't worry about overthinking things. Details can come later. Getting good at unnecessarily speedy runs can come if and when they're confident enough to care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Faster is obviously better in drafts and objective-based playthroughs, because that's the point of them, but I don't think the average, relatively uneducated player necessarily thinks playing faster means playing better, or even that making the chapter easier is objectively better. Maybe that would make them miss out on some loot, exp or support-building. If there's a right answer, I'd think it's to come to SF, see how everybody else plays and realize how much they suck learn how the decisions one makes as a player affect the outcomes, learn whether that leads to success on their terms, and learn what makes the game most enjoyable for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) Faster is obviously better in drafts and objective-based playthroughs, because that's the point of them No; it's the point of some drafts and some other objective-based playthroughs. They can and do play to objectives that don't involve speed. Edited March 21, 2012 by Othin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Right on, then, my bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Faster is obviously better in drafts and objective-based playthroughs, because that's the point of them, but I don't think the average, relatively uneducated player necessarily thinks playing faster means playing better, or even that making the chapter easier is objectively better. Maybe that would make them miss out on some loot, exp or support-building. If there's a right answer, I'd think it's to come to SF, see how everybody else plays and realize how much they suck learn how the decisions one makes as a player affect the outcomes, learn whether that leads to success on their terms, and learn what makes the game most enjoyable for them. did you read through the topic yet playing faster alleviates common problems for inexperienced players such as: - hoarding rare and strong weapons - running out of weapons and money - getting overwhelmed by reinforcements - inability to complete faster objectives no one is saying that every inexperienced player should immediately aim for LTC. but you'd be surprised at how often playing just a little faster makes a chapter significantly easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 did you read through the topic yet playing faster alleviates common problems for inexperienced players such as: - hoarding rare and strong weapons - running out of weapons and money - getting overwhelmed by reinforcements - inability to complete faster objectives no one is saying that every inexperienced player should immediately aim for LTC. but you'd be surprised at how often playing just a little faster makes a chapter significantly easier. Sometimes, yeah. Sometimes, not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I actually agree with dondon. Moving at LTC speeds is typically difficult, but moving at turtle pace can be bad too. A nub needs to find a balance of playing fast and playing defensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 "needs to?" what exactly makes it an obligation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 "needs to?" what exactly makes it an obligation? I think there's an (obvious) implicit qualifier in there that Banzai is saying you need to do so if you want the easiest first playthrough, or something along those lines. Not "needs to" as in gun to the head needs to or anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 there are some chapters that are made a lot harder by going slow anyway like BBD You /want/ to Paladin rush there no matter if you play casual or for speed Arr. Paladin/Pegknight rush that level = success. But going slow or fast is situational. So like, yeah. The main thing i tell FE newblets is that they need to get a feel for how things really work. Sometimes it even takes more than one or two playthroughs to really get it. Trying LTC type shit on your first run is....not the best idea. But once you get a real hang of it, go for it and see what happens. Like, i play super casual but certain chapters in certain games, i fucking bumrush/LTC that shit. So yeah. What would you guys tell newblets about arena abusing? Some (if not most) FAQs on GameFAQs and junk actually encourage it. I tell some rookie players that its not necessary and probably not a good idea unless you dont mind burning turns and know how to cheat the system by betting super low and junk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Arr. Paladin/Pegknight rush that level = success. But going slow or fast is situational. So like, yeah. The main thing i tell FE newblets is that they need to get a feel for how things really work. Sometimes it even takes more than one or two playthroughs to really get it. Trying LTC type shit on your first run is....not the best idea. But once you get a real hang of it, go for it and see what happens. Like, i play super casual but certain chapters in certain games, i fucking bumrush/LTC that shit. So yeah. What would you guys tell newblets about arena abusing? That it's not fun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 But what if they find it fun? (i kinda do.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) I dunno, I find in the time used in blowing levels in the arena, I could've beaten the game. I personally find it really tedious and unnecessary, and I'd tell newbies that, but they're free to blow it on shiny green numbers that can probably trivialise the game later (and lessen the strategic value of the games IMO). I'd personally suggest to them that unless they're really really keen on shiny green numbers, use it if they really are having trouble, though. Or trying to get Geitz because Eliwood sucks. Edited March 23, 2012 by Luminescent Blade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 You're shooting yourself in the foot unless you use as many people as you can - I would say 15-20 is the minimum amount of units you should be using. Scrolls and 20 caps mean you're not affected by the reduced exp gain, especially in elite mode, and it's not like there are a lot of unsalvageable units. The game gives you about 50 units, why let most of them rot on the bench? Maybe if you go at super turtle pace this somewhat applies, but as it is using that many units WILL make your units relatively weak. Your units do not start close to capping those stats at 20, and they do not automatically have 4 scrolls in their inventory every time they level up. By using so many units, you actually have to face the challenge of raising units, because let's face it, beyond the top 10 units or so you will find mostly units that start out bad or okay. Fergus, Asvel, Othin, Brighton, Dean, those kind of units are ridiculous even at base level. But then you get to units like Halvan that are alright at base or even levels but not that awesome, needing to get lucky for ORKOs. And then there's Karin who needs to get a ridiculous amount of overleveling to get good, and shitty ones like Kein that start out underleveled and aren't even amazing at even levels. Plus, by raising that many units, you are actually accepting that you're going to be benching at least a third of them in a lot of maps. That doesn't sound like a very, well, efficient use of your EXP. I'd rather have 1-2 units of my star team of 8 sitting out than 5-6 out of 15 units. Note how a lot of maps, particularly gaidens, don't even let you deploy this many units. Also when you do get to deploy a lot of units, a lot of them end up doing nothing (or nothing that isn't trivial) cause there's usually at least one badass in there taking out an army on enemy phase, and the rest is just there for show. Which brings me to another tip to manage fatigue: actually don't deploy people who have a lot of fatigue if you do not expect them to contribute in maps. Think of a map like 8x or 10 where there's a lot of narrow corridors and not a whole lot of enemies that you're going to fight head on with your group. Units twiddling their thumbs all map could've been resting off their fatigue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Also the more units you deploy the more your limited supplies dwindle down further... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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