Colonel M Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) Payback isn't Revenge. You just need to take damage and move second to deal double damage. I also haven't had to use more than one Flame Charge in most cases unless they're absurdly fast, which is kind of rare. As for damage Throh Payback vs neutral Abomasnow - 29-34% Scrafty Payback - 40-47% Yeah that's quite significant... Edited April 24, 2012 by Colonel M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 @ dondon: If speed is that important, I say we bring Tepig and Scraggy down. They're slow anyway and Tepig doesnt even learn a stable fighting type move until evolution, and it has to relearn it. Emboar in particular is not that slow. 65 base speed outspeeds mooks really easily, but Throh's 45 base speed means that it's slower than a lot of things.nCase in point: Ursaring in a Pokemon XD speedrun has only 55 base speed but can outspeed a lot of Pokemon that have a higher base speed due to level advantage and EVs. Oh wait fighting types re awesome in Unova. Or why not bring Sandile down? It anyway has Dig as its most powerful ground move for a while, and wastes a turn using it. That's because Dig gives Throh almost no additional coverage when compared to fighting type attacks. It only hits poison types for more damage, but you could have just used a normal type move twice or something. Also why would I not want to go last, especially with Throh? Its usually gonna go last anyway, might as well make use of revenge. Because you, I don't know, get attacked? Waste time seeing opponent animations? Have to use a Hyper Potion some time? Revenge still has a modest base power even when the user doesn't get attacked, and the doubled power is probably overkill in a lot of situations; plus in the cases where Throh doesn't get attacked, he fires off an unboosted Revenge. May as well have gone first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedoom Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) Hmm looks like I was wrong then. :| I do think Tepig is <Throh though. (Scrafty is debatable. As a scraggy its not as durable/powerful as Throh, but as Scrafty it kicks butt so meh) Mainly because it doesn't learn a powerful fighting move(arm thrust is not stable) until you teach it brick break(forgot where you get it) or relearn it as an Emboar(which slows it down btw/negates Flame Charge). You're probably better off with flamethrower even if it goes off of its inferior Sp Attack(100 still hits hard I guess) and Focus Blast, i guess(its inaccurate). EDIT: Didn't see your psot dondon. Will reply later. Edited April 24, 2012 by Marth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 I'd like to point out that especially after the Lucky Egg, level advantage persists and is strong up until like..Ghetsis. A mon like Emboar's speed is nowhere near as bad as Throh's, since Emboar for the most part can make use of a level advantage to make up for a poor speed base. Even with level lead, Throh for the most part couldn't outrun dirt. The only real time I find Emboar getting outsped AND needing Flame Charge to deal with it is like during really big fights if the person has particularly fast mons. Seeing as this is Unova, the land that doesn't really know what speed is for the most part, that happens rarely. And I say this as someone who loves Throh to bits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) Glitch Post, do delete. Edited April 24, 2012 by grandjackal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grace Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 iirc: Revenge has a -4 priority, just so you know. ie: You're going last anyway. just as a note Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) I do think Tepig is <Throh though. (Scrafty is debatable. As a scraggy its not as durable/powerful as Throh, but as Scrafty it kicks butt so meh)Mainly because it doesn't learn a powerful fighting move(arm thrust is not stable) until you teach it brick break(forgot where you get it) or relearn it as an Emboar(which slows it down btw/negates Flame Charge). You're probably better off with flamethrower even if it goes off of its inferior Sp Attack(100 still hits hard I guess) and Focus Blast, i guess(its inaccurate). What the fuck are you talking about? First off, Arm Thrust is fine. It has 20 base power now, and it takes merely 3 hits to reach Revenge if it didn't have its negative priority (pretty damn simple), and it's actually helpful against Sturdy Pokemon since it bypasses the ability when they're at full health. Secondly, Emboar has a greater movepool that hits other types (Scald, Grass Knot) over Throh. Third, as mentioned, it's actually fast enough to do what it has to do, thus it's rarely taking damage, and even if it does its HP and defenses are enough to circumvent a blow anyhow. Also, how does Brick Break negate Flame Charge!?! I mean even if you do remove Flame Charge out of the equation, it's merely a counter to it being "way too slow". Sometimes there are situations such as long fights (N) where Speed build-up might be necessary. Edited April 24, 2012 by Colonel M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiley Jim Posted April 24, 2012 Author Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) Also, how does Brick Break negate Flame Charge!?! I think he was talking about Hammer Arm, which DOES drop speed. Just popping by to let you know what the tier list is based on. I posted something on the first post that says it is based on efficiency, but not speedrunning. P.S: If speed is so valued, should Throh drop a bit further? P.P.S: What do you think of the genies moving up a tier? Edited April 24, 2012 by Mercenary James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 P.S: If speed is so valued, should Throh drop a bit further? That depends on how much you value Lilipup and having Intimidate + Work Up for its routine of building offense for long battles and firing off STAB Returns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) Mainly because it doesn't learn a powerful fighting move(arm thrust is not stable) until you teach it brick break(forgot where you get it) icirrus city, before any of the events there You're probably better off with flamethrower even if it goes off of its inferior Sp Attack(100 still hits hard I guess) and Focus Blast, i guess(its inaccurate). focus blast also has PP issues; you'd definitely prefer brick break. also don't forget heat stamp, which has at least 60 BP against most opponents, if not more. scald + grass knot / wild charge gives emboar nearly perfect coverage Edited April 24, 2012 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Holy hell how did I forget Wild Charge? @_@; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 dondon, Dig also helps with electric. . .or would be better, if Emolga didn't exist all over Elesa's gym. Throh can also get Rock Tomb to help with its Speed issues, but that move doesn't deal enough damage to make its accuracy worth it (it's either miss or deal stupidly low damage). So does Body Slam, but good luck getting paralysis to stick. No objections to Throh's placement either way. I think it has a cool name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Draper Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) . Edited July 5, 2020 by Don Draper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icon of Sin Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) Throh really wishes he had Drain Punch in his repertoire to take back all the damage he takes. Why is Drilbur still in SS? Taking Jogurt's argument on Throh into account, and some stuff involving Sandile and Drilbur, Throh has been dropped to the top of A tier, and Sandile has been risen above Tepig in S tier. Drilbur's placement is now pending. Have a nice day. What do you guys say about...top of A maybe? Edited April 24, 2012 by Dio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Draper Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) . Edited July 5, 2020 by Don Draper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 That might be a little low... But then again SS is too high. Especially when he hasn't slept with a prostitute Ye- Oh wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 What do you guys say about...top of A maybe? Sounds good to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 dondon, Dig also helps with electric >implying that throh needs help OHKOing electric pokemon with STAB fighting moves off base 100 atk if he can't do that, he must really suck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiley Jim Posted April 24, 2012 Author Share Posted April 24, 2012 Following some new arguments in favor of a drop, Drilbur has been dropped below Sandile and Tepig. Also, Throh has been dropped below Sigilyph. Have a nice day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 >implying that throh needs help OHKOing electric pokemon with STAB fighting moves off base 100 atk if he can't do that, he must really suck Thank goodness these guys aren't more common Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) dig hits galvantula for neutral damage i.e. less damage than nonSTAB body slam on a single hit in conclusion: dig doesn't help throh against electric pokemon, thank you for agreeing with me. Edited April 25, 2012 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) dig hits galvantula for neutral damage i.e. less damage than nonSTAB body slam on a single hit in conclusion: dig doesn't help throh against electric pokemon, thank you for agreeing with me. And how much is a Fighting move doing? I don't give a fuck about the other move types for the sake of this point. Edited April 25, 2012 by eclipse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 And how much is a Fighting move doing? I don't give a fuck about the other move types for the sake of this point. bug resists fighting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 So what about Timburr? Nobody else have a problem with it being so high? It'll be eating even more attacks than Throh and Scraggy, and its second tier form is underwhelming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) In short, this is one of those weird situations where a Ground move does more damage than a Fighting one. Not that it's a good one, since something as horrid as Rock Tomb can outdamage both. The other two Pokemon where Dig will outpace Fighting are Stunfisk (lol) and Zekrom (who exists for all of one battle). The reason why ground's not good on a fighting Pokemon against electrics this time is because they either laugh at it (Emolga), are killed by a stiff breeze (Blitzle), exist once and require something stronger (Zekrom), don't take as much damage as normal or can be hit with something more effective (Joltik) or are Stunfisk, who is sitting pretty at the bottom of E Tier. tl;dr - Correct point, wrong arguments. EDIT: So what about Timburr? Nobody else have a problem with it being so high? It'll be eating even more attacks than Throh and Scraggy, and its second tier form is underwhelming. Same base Speed as Throh, more Attack and Special Attack, slightly less Defense, and somewhat less HP and Special Defense. I'd say a better movepool on top of far more Attack, even if Hammer Arm's Speed drop sucks. As for Sheer Force, the most prominent moves it'll affect are Rock Slide and Poison Jab (probably should include Low Sweep, Dynamicpunch and maybe Bulldoze in here, too). Rock Smash is inconsequential, Rock Tomb is turned into a less-accurate Rock Slide, and Focus Blast. . .uh, yeah (while 120 base before STAB and Sheer Force is nice, dunno if I want it running off of 55 base Special. . .if anyone wants to point out why this assumption is silly, feel free to do so). Edited April 25, 2012 by eclipse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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