Othin Plays FE13!

[PuffPuff]

Precisely.

I was being polite earlier, but you're really starting to get annoying. This thread is not titled "Ayanami Plays FE13". If you want a thread like that, make one. Don't continue this.

Oh.

I wasn't touching Lunatiku.

[Ike of Paris]

Any opinions on the Strategist class? Does it feel like the Mage Fighter from FE4? How do the Battle Monks handle? Wou;d you say the removal of CON is game breaking?

[arvilino]

Any opinions on the Strategist class? Does it feel like the Mage Fighter from FE4? How do the Battle Monks handle? Wou;d you say the removal of CON is game breaking?

Strategist is a bit like Mage Fighter, however the way weapons levels work unless you use an Arms Scroll on your Strategist you'll end up focusing on purely Sword or Tome rank.

Battle Monk is pretty good if you're specifically talking about Libera, his stats except for resistance which is high are sort of average, but the ability to use Axes and Staves is really good.

The removal of con/wt isn't game breaking in my opinion. I can't say any one class is significantly worse or better because of the removal, Pegasus Knights and Magic users which benefit the most from the removal aren't absurdly strong in general or anything like that.

[Othin]

Strategist is a bit like Mage Fighter, however the way weapons levels work unless you use an Arms Scroll on your Strategist you'll end up focusing on purely Sword or Tome rank.

Battle Monk is pretty good if you're specifically talking about Libera, his stats except for resistance which is high are sort of average, but the ability to use Axes and Staves is really good.

The removal of con/wt isn't game breaking in my opinion. I can't say any one class is significantly worse or better because of the removal, Pegasus Knights and Magic users which benefit the most from the removal aren't absurdly strong in general or anything like that.

This, pretty much. I should note that on Lunatic, I went Battle Cleric over Sage for Liz because she wasn't going to be doing any fighting and so the better chance of not getting OHKOed was worth it. The Double system pretty much replaces Wt, since that's instead the thing you concern yourself with for ensuring you have the Spd you need. And the other stats, as a fun bonus. It's a great addition, as long as the enemies are tough enough for you to need it, which they are.

---

So since it turns out SpotPass can't be used for grinding in Lunatic due to not getting Exp from it, I decided to try using it to recruit characters to round out my team. At this point, I felt ready to challenge even the crazy LV20 teams. The one I wound up going for was Cellica: having Dion as my only competent mage has been causing issues all game, and another healer is always nice to have. She particularly stands out in having base Mag that, with her bonuses, is actually higher than Dion's capped Mag, being able to hit ridiculously hard and reach across the entire map with Rescue if necessary. I bought a Change Seal for her since she's at her max level, but I'm trying to decide whether to switch her into a Valkyrie or keep her as a Sage. I've been doing a lot of keeping characters in their base classes: Libera, Lucina, and Sairi all reached max level and I just tossed them back into their original class because it worked better; they all need to be at the top of their game and they can't do that in other classes, trading something they need for something they can't really use.

I'm thinking over what to do next. I'll probably give Ch24 another try with Cellica; I was looking at RvB2 and RvB3, but I don't think I can kill enemies that powerful fast enough to survive, even at this stage. RvB3 actually seems like it might be the easier of the two at this point, due to having most of the enemies trapped behind doors rather than dumping all of them onto the field at once in utter chaos.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Othin

[Ike of Paris]

This, pretty much. I should note that on Lunatic, I went Battle Cleric over Sage for Liz because she wasn't going to be doing any fighting and so the better chance of not getting OHKOed was worth it. The Double system pretty much replaces Wt, since that's instead the thing you concern yourself with for ensuring you have the Spd you need. And the other stats, as a fun bonus. It's a great addition, as long as the enemies are tough enough for you to need it, which they are.

---

So since it turns out SpotPass can't be used for grinding in Lunatic due to not getting Exp from it, I decided to try using it to recruit characters to round out my team. At this point, I felt ready to challenge even the crazy LV20 teams. The one I wound up going for was Cellica: having Dion as my only competent mage has been causing issues all game, and another healer is always nice to have. She particularly stands out in having base Mag that, with her bonuses, is actually higher than Dion's capped Mag, being able to hit ridiculously hard and reach across the entire map with Rescue if necessary. I bought a Change Seal for her since she's at her max level, but I'm trying to decide whether to switch her into a Valkyrie or keep her as a Sage. I've been doing a lot of keeping characters in their base classes: Libera, Lucina, and Sairi all reached max level and I just tossed them back into their original class because it worked better; they all need to be at the top of their game and they can't do that in other classes, trading something they need for something they can't really use.

I'm thinking over what to do next. I'll probably give Ch24 another try with Cellica; I was looking at RvB2 and RvB3, but I don't think I can kill enemies that powerful fast enough to survive, even at this stage. RvB3 actually seems like it might be the easier of the two at this point, due to having most of the enemies trapped behind doors rather than dumping all of them onto the field at once in utter chaos.

Valkyrie would make her a much mobile healer methinks. It's basically a more mobile mage that can heal. On top of that, you still retain the use of tomes.

So you turned the rescue staff into some sort of deployment device? Nice. So you have MU as a Mage? Can you beat Lunatic with out changing classes? SO MANY QUESTIONS.

Edit: I feel that the Grandmaster should've had staves just to round out the idea that the class is great for support and combat.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Ike of Paris

[Othin]

Well, she'll be more of a fighter than a healer. I already have enough healers, although having more fighters than can function as one is good.

Rescue staffs are indeed incredibly important; I use them constantly for hit-and-run tactics. I rarely go a turn without at least one use; the fact that I was able to clear Cellica's skirmish not only in one attempt but also without a single Rescue use goes to show that those maps should really be in reach at this stage. But I'm not sure they're worth more weapon uses right now for what basically just equates to swapping out one of my characters for another.

And yeah, class swapping isn't a huge deal on Lunatic. Aside from grabbing extra levels for Libera, Sairi, and Lucina, I've only used Change Seals to give wings to Frederick and horses to Krom and Dion. Dion then gave up his horse to become a Demon Fighter. He's been using magic all game, although his choice classes are sturdier than most, which has been helpful. It does seem like it should be possible to complete Lunatic without using Change Seals even to for more levels within the same class. Would be an added challenge due to losing MU's ridiculous level gains, but probably a fair challenge with a more balanced team. I mean, Sairi was able to stay as my second best character for much of the game without resetting her level until the end of Ch23, with just three chapters remaining.

I can't agree with giving staffs to Grandmaster, though. Rainbow Cry is the best skill in the game, better than any staff. It's a ridiculous enough class already even without being a complete hybrid of Trickster and Sage.

[PuffPuff]

So since it turns out SpotPass can't be used for grinding in Lunatic due to not getting Exp from it, I decided to try using it to recruit characters to round out my team.

How is Spot Pass used in general? Erm...what Item do you need to be able to do grinding? Heard it's some lamp or something you need. Imma not sure. -.-

[Westbrick]

How is Spot Pass used in general? Erm...what Item do you need to be able to do grinding? Heard it's some lamp or something you need. Imma not sure. -.-

SpotPass teams can be summoned at any time from the world map without needing to use an item, but the experience they give is pocket change.

[PuffPuff]

SpotPass teams can be summoned at any time from the world map without needing to use an item, but the experience they give is pocket change.

Well...their base stats will be more than enough.

Looking forward to recruiting Marth, Leaf, Lachesis, Micaiah and Ike. =D

Edited July 9, 2012 by アイネ

[arvilino]

SpotPass teams can be summoned at any time from the world map without needing to use an item, but the experience they give is pocket change.

That depends on the mode. On normal and Hard they give regular EXP, on Lunatic and Lunatic+ they give 1 EXP for every round of combat and don't provide WEXP either.

[Westbrick]

That depends on the mode. On normal and Hard they give regular EXP, on Lunatic and Lunatic+ they give 1 EXP for every round of combat and don't provide WEXP either.

This is what I meant, yes. Othin was talking about the lack of experience specifically in regards to Lunatic.

[Saethori]

[O]n Lunatic and Lunatic+ [spotPass Battles] give 1 EXP for every round of combat and don't provide WEXP either.

This is... a rather interesting trick, a rather unique way to prevent one from just beating Lunatic by absurd outleveling.

Does this apply to DLC battles as well?

[Othin]

Does this apply to DLC battles as well?

No, it does not. As far as I can tell, you can still grind through replaying them.

[Dark Sage]

And yeah, class swapping isn't a huge deal on Lunatic. Aside from grabbing extra levels for Libera, Sairi, and Lucina, I've only used Change Seals to give wings to Frederick and horses to Krom and Dion. Dion then gave up his horse to become a Demon Fighter. He's been using magic all game, although his choice classes are sturdier than most, which has been helpful. It does seem like it should be possible to complete Lunatic without using Change Seals even to for more levels within the same class. Would be an added challenge due to losing MU's ridiculous level gains, but probably a fair challenge with a more balanced team. I mean, Sairi was able to stay as my second best character for much of the game without resetting her level until the end of Ch23, with just three chapters remaining.

Well that is to be expected. Few of the characters have classes that are worth reclassing to and even then, having to climb 9 levels and delay the all important promotion boost would probably end up making things harder rather than easier. It seems to me like the only characters who would benefit from reclassing would be MU, Krom, Fredrick, and maybe Vake and Jerome.

I'm interested in the enemy stats personally in Hard and Lunatic Modes and whether or not they used the old FE6-12 method of giving hard mode bonuses by giving invisible levels. Are their defense stats increased as well? In Lunatic of FE12, enemies had high HP, strength, and speed but their defense stat was pretty much the same as it was in Normal Mode, which was a good way of making enemies tougher to kill without being too frustrating.

Also do the enemies make use of forged effective weapons (aka forged beastkillers, wyrmslayers, etc.)? FE12 had enemies use those from Maniac and up.

[arvilino]

Well that is to be expected. Few of the characters have classes that are worth reclassing to and even then, having to climb 9 levels and delay the all important promotion boost would probably end up making things harder rather than easier. It seems to me like the only characters who would benefit from reclassing would be MU, Krom, Fredrick, and maybe Vake and Jerome.

I'm interested in the enemy stats personally in Hard and Lunatic Modes and whether or not they used the old FE6-12 method of giving hard mode bonuses by giving invisible levels. Are their defense stats increased as well? In Lunatic of FE12, enemies had high HP, strength, and speed but their defense stat was pretty much the same as it was in Normal Mode, which was a good way of making enemies tougher to kill without being too frustrating.

Also do the enemies make use of forged effective weapons (aka forged beastkillers, wyrmslayers, etc.)? FE12 had enemies use those from Maniac and up.

I don't think there are invisible levels in Lunatic. It appears that all the enemies(excluding bosses of course) of the same level of the same class have identical stats(though in Hard and even Normal there is variation, also notably in Normal early on some enemies have lower than their base stats).

The defense stats of the same promoted enemies is higher in Lunatic quite a bit, with enemies having quite high RES stats as well unlike FE12's Lunatic. Unpromoted enemies don't have as big of a gap in defense if I remember correctly. Though due to the double function and the skills it doesn't make enemies too frustrating to deal with, additionally the only enemies who have a really high defenses before end game are Generals, Dragonlords and Great Knights who all have low Res and are weak to specific weapons.

Enemies can wield forged effective weapons. On Lunatic every promoted enemy in the game wields a forged weapon and after a certain chapter they start using forged weapons with higher stats than the player can forge. For example after a certain chapter(can't remember) if you see an enemy with a Hammer it will have 18 might, whereas the player can only forge Hammers up to 15 might.

Edit: I realised I have Gaiden 15 uncompleted on my Lunatic and Normal file so here's a comparison of an enemy Paladin between the modes

MODE|LV|HP|STR|MAG|SKL|SPD|LUK|DEF|RES|ATK
LM  | 7|67| 31| 01| 26| 27| 26| 26| 20|53  
NM  | 7|47| 21| 01| 17| 18| 15| 18| 13|34

In addition there a 9 more enemies on Lunatic and they can have skills(with all of them with acc+10).

Edited July 10, 2012 by arvilino

[Othin]

The impossible +8 weapons take over completely starting in Ch21, but even before that, when most enemies are using +4 Silvers, enemies with weaker weapons will use +8 forges. As early as Ch17 I recall seeing +8 Hammers, Killer Bows, and Longbows, all hitting at least as hard as the +4 Silvers and more accurately.

Ch17 is also the point where promoted enemies take over completely and all enemies start using Accuracy +10, aside from special bosses that don't have space - at least until Ch24 when they swap it out for Accuracy +20. Lunatic enemies do not like missing.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Othin

[Othin]

So I noticed I was having some issues trying to have Lucina use her Falchion to kill the Dragonmasters in Ch24 due to them often having the Sword Slayer skill. I decided to take a look to see how common the skill is.

Lunatic Ch24 has 11 Dragonmasters, and in FE13, skills are distributed randomly to classes able to get them, more often on higher difficulty levels and later in the game. Checking one random layout for the enemies, all 11 Dragonmasters had Sword Slayer. I don't know the odds of this distribution, but wtf is the point of having swords meant to slay dragons if you can't hit dragons with swords?

Edited July 10, 2012 by Othin

[Westbrick]

So I haven't been keeping up with this topic as of late, but you're telling me Lunatic skills are randomized? I stopped paying attention once Nosferatanking took effect, but if that's true, it's pretty damn disappointing. Also another reason why a hypothetical Maniac would be welcome, and why the US release will probably be the superior version of the game.

[Othin]

Generic enemies' skills are randomized on all difficulties, aside from certain set things like the accuracy bonuses. The skills aren't as prominent on lower difficulties, though.

I didn't like the idea of it, but it's actually very workable: it means that instead of having a specific best strategy for a situation, you need to pay attention and have room to adjust to deal with whatever issues might arise from certain skills. I would have preferred it if skills were fixed, especially Lunatic+ skills, but at least on the lower difficulty levels, I can't complain much; it works out just fine regardless.

---

Edit: Aha! Poking around a bit with resets, I noticed a trend. No matter how many times I reloaded the map for different skill configurations, every Dragonmaster always had Sword Slayer. Not only that - every Bow Knight always had Bow Slayer, every Paladin always had Holy Shield, every Great Knight always had Luna, and every Valkyrie always had Secluded Lady. It seems that at this point, the classes are always set to have whatever is designated as their best skill, alongside Accuracy +20, and then 0-3 other skills from their class. So at least right now, it's not entirely random.

Earlier maps weren't quite this way, but it seems that at this point, it's how it's determined.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Othin

[Othin]

Cellica was every bit as effective as I had hoped. She's pretty much tied with Sairi as my second best character at this point. Making her a Valkyrie was as great of a choice as it sounded, although she was way too busy fighting to actually use any staffs. Basilio also was great, although I ended up using Flavia mostly for Double support. It was also fortunate that I happened to run into a merchant selling a set of Brave weapons after the previous map; Lucina and Basilio used the Brave Sword and Brave Axe to great effect. I'm running low on gold now, though, especially after forging a Beastslayer to help deal with certain enemies and after needing to buy pretty much a full set of Rescue staffs after spamming them a ridiculous amount to survive the chapter. The gold the boss dropped helped, though.

And now I reach Ch25. This seems like the finale, in a way: since the game doesn't save after the actual Final, I'll have no real reason to worry about avoiding character deaths there, opening up more options for how to approach it as long as I can succeed in killing the final boss. The final boss that will have 15 more Spd than Krom and the ability to cleanly OHKO him with a Magnificent Flame activation... shit.

But one thing at a time - Ch25 is scary enough on its own. Inverse has capped four stats and nearly capped the rest, and her team doesn't look much weaker. The enemy Swordmasters have 44 Spd, just a point below Sairi and Dion and doubling the entire rest of my team, including Lucina. And all the enemies continue their trend of havng their designated best skill alongside Accuracy +20, with other stuff tossed in for good measure. The Swordmasters all have Sword Expert, the Berserkers all have Axe Expert, the Dark Pegasi all have Lightning Speed, and the Tricksters all have Lucky 7. Sorcerers are slinging Slime everywhere, and constant Magic Slayer means I can't use Dion to blast them like I could in Ch21. And I know this map has plenty of reinforcements showing up from behind, when I have no idea how to deal with the enemies in front. Two Swordmasters, two Berserkers, and two Generals all right in my face, with six fliers swooping in from the sides and I have to kill all of these in the first two turns or my entire team is probably dead. And who knows what the other enemies are going to do in the meantime.

Was it here that I said Lunatic enemies don't miss? The Swordmasters sitting in front of me have 204 Hit, counting Accuracy +20. The Berserkers have 155-160. For all intents and purposes, Avoid is basically worthless for player characters on Lunatic because there's no way in hell you're going to dodge things - yet Spd somehow manages to still be the most important stat. Of course, it's still worthless if your other stats don't back it up.

[Xeniferos]

Was it here that I said Lunatic enemies don't miss? The Swordmasters sitting in front of me have 204 Hit, counting Accuracy +20. The Berserkers have 155-160. For all intents and purposes, Avoid is basically worthless for player characters on Lunatic because there's no way in hell you're going to dodge things - yet Spd somehow manages to still be the most important stat. Of course, it's still worthless if your other stats don't back it up.

This makes me very sad.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Xjezhekiir

[Othin]

Sad? Seems to me like it's more interesting than expecting to not get hit and then randomly getting crushed for massive damage.

[Xeniferos]

See, I tend to be a lot more surprised than sad when an enemy with less than 20-30 HIT actually lands an attack, just like an enemy landing a 1-2% Crit. But that's normal.

I think on FE7 the highest I've had for Avoid is 136? I haven't touched an FE title in quite some time, so don't quote me on that.

That would make the aforementioned Swordmaster's hit rate ~70%+. In turn, this makes me sad because I'm more likely to get hit. And die. And that would make anyone sad. Or rage-y. Nobody wants that.

Then again, given that this is Lunatic, and everything you've mentioned... That's probably normal. I suppose I can see where it'd be more interesting simply because it requires you to either:

A) Forfeit all strategy and give in to Nosfertanking.

B) Become the ultimate strategist and devise a strategy that requires meticulous careful execution. (Which would ultimately make one feel amazing if it's pull it off, I bet.)

or

C) Get extremely lucky.

I'm sure there might be some that I've missed. That said, I'm sure I'll give the NA equivalent of Lunatic a shot regardless.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Xjezhekiir

[Saethori]

[...] I suppose I can see where it'd be more interesting simply because it requires you to either:

A) Forfeit all strategy and give in to Nosfertanking.

B) Become the ultimate strategist and devise a strategy that requires meticulous careful execution. (Which would ultimately make one feel amazing if it's pull it off, I bet.) [...]

This is probably why Othin isn't using the former option for this.

It wouldn't be a very interesting summary if every chapter was "deploy MU Sorc Tank, Double with Krom, kill everything", so sometimes restrictions have to be in play.

[Xeniferos]

This is probably why Othin isn't using the former option for this.

It wouldn't be a very interesting summary if every chapter was "deploy MU Sorc Tank, Double with Krom, kill everything", so sometimes restrictions have to be in play.

Oh, no doubt about it. I've read a few of his synopses on chapters here and there(mostly to avoid any spoilers or major plot points if any), and I'd agree. I've visualized his choices, and quite enjoyed his descriptions of enemy/party layouts, skills, etc. Most definitely. It's like he said. It's interesting to note that the game pushes you to think outside the box a little bit(Nosfertanking excluded) to trumph a chapter.

I guess I should have said in my original post that I meant 204 HIT makes me sad because I have to come to the realization and accept that dodging is more or less impossible(If not impossible, then definitely inconsistent) on Lunatic(+). Because I love dodging as much as I love taking a hit for "NO DAMAGE".

Edited July 10, 2012 by Xjezhekiir