Draft Minimafia

[eclipse]

Here's a hint, folks:

VOTE FOR THE PERSON THAT YOU THINK IS SCUMMY.

[Prims]

i don't think that was the problem, the problem was that all the dudes who thought i was scum were dead or not playing

Edited June 30, 2012 by Prims

[Strawman]

Here's a hint, folks:

VOTE FOR THE PERSON THAT YOU THINK IS SCUMMY.

We died too early :(. Then Bizz wasn't being decisive, Manix was too easily swayed, and Proto and Roth hardly existed.

[Paperblade]

Game Design:

This was based off of a "gimmick" that is used on the SomethingAwful and mafiascum forums (even though mafiascum sucks). The roles in this game were designed to be things that wouldn't be *too* overpowered for either side and be somewhat useful for either. For example, there's no Interceptor or Innocent/Tree Stump.

The draft format was something I wanted to test for Nostalgia Mafia (which will be drafted a little bit differently spoilersomg), mostly to make sure that it wasn't too slow. I think it was fine except for two things:

A. Draft order and randomized town/mafia setup meant it was entirely possible for the mafia to get both their picks early (which could arguably make them too strong) or too late (which could arguably make them too weak). This could be solved by not randomizing player slots but then there is the issue of trying to metagame the host which can be questionable although sometimes valid (for example if Life were to host a game I would assume that any town cop claim was legit).

B. The vanilla setup meant that things could happen such that the town was all PRs or almost no PRs, which again could be a shift in balance. I think this could be fixed by adjusting the pool of roles to the size of the game such that it is expected that every role is taken (which in this case would make it smaller).

Both of these will be fixed for Nostalgia Mafia.

Player Stuff:

To start this off, please please please don't join games if it is a struggle for you to keep up with the host's postcount just making votals every ~40 or so posts (I try to post votals once a page at 40ppp). You aren't going to contribute anything and really it just brings down your team. I am singling out the players that did this in their individual analysis too but it's annoying as a player and even moreso as a host because (as I have said a thousand times) designing good well-balanced games is *quite* difficult especially as more and more variables are introduced, and having people go randomly inactive makes it difficult to tell if certain ideas were actually bad or if people were just playing badly.

Overall I am pretty disappointed in the play from the town. The two that were playing best were lynched and killed back to back and no one thought it was odd or to reread, and the inactives were left alive because frankly they didn't give a shit. The town's poor play was only hindered by the fact that their best players (Blitz and StSS) were also the only ones with PRs (other than Levity but she did not take a role until the night she died so she was effectively vanilla) and were quickly killed. This meant that the town was a bunch of vanillas on a site where people are overly reliant on trying to metagame and guess at roles, which is really just a terrible idea because oftentimes oddities in effects can be caused by several traditional roles many of which can be town or mafia and sometimes even unique role ideas.

While the overabundance of vanillas was basically just bad luck (albeit hilarious because half of you tried to take Amnesiac) since the town couldn't talk to each other during drafting, they basically sat down and let the mafia bully them around for 3 days then lost.

Blitz (Hooker)

Blitz, as usual, suspected the mafia day 1. And, as usual, he was lynched because people seem to not realize that Blitz is bad at articulating why he thinks people are scummy (which is something he needs to work on), even though you can usually see the reasoning if you look at it (hint: Blitz is really good at finding inconsistencies between people's play as mafia and town). And by that I mean that he was stealth lynched after he said he was going away and wouldn't be back for deadline because Prims shit his pants (possibly literally) and managed to get Bizz on the bandwagon because voting people you think are scummy is somehow scummy.

StSS (Redirector)

StSS played about as well as Blitz this game, the main difference being that StSS explained his opinions better (then again I suspect Blitz is actually a mafia playing AI that just calculates who is scum based on the text and thus cannot explain things because machine code) but fsr thought Rothene was the most likely nightkill N1 and thus tried to reflect kills from him. I find inactives a waste of a kill unless their role is awesome, which the mafia obviously had no way of knowing N1. His other mistake was retracting his Prims suspicion halfway through D1 for some reason or another, even though posthumously he said he was still suspicious of Prims. He was killed because, like Blitz, Prims was terrified of the thought of him being alive.

Elieson (Vanilla picked Hooker)

Elieson was put under suspicion and considered obvscum for some reason or another that I don't really understand. The only point made against him that I'm aware of was that he seemed to be playing both sides of the Manix v. Prims argument because just like real life politics you can't agree with some of the points some people make and some points other people make. So he got lynched, making him the second lynch in a row conducted pretty much entirely by Prims making up BS reasons to get people lynched.

Levity (Amnesiac)

Levity for some reason idled N1 and then took Blitz's role N2 (I'm going to guess because she realized shit was about to get real and nothing better was dying). Anyway, Levity pretty much had wrong reads for the most part, being the only person that was actually active, not mafia, and not suspicious of Prims. She was killed because she was confirmed as Amnesiac to Prims despite not claiming it due to the vanillas claiming and he didn't want another Hooker running around, making her the first death to not suspect Prims.

Manix (Vanilla picked Amnesiac)

Manix's greatest mistake in this game was that he was not actually scumbuddies with Prims, which means he lost instead of BBM. Manix quickly realized that Prims was acting funny (which he was, Prims was acting very defensive and emotional) and that what Prims was trying to throw on him was bullshit. However, he was left alive because Prims was pushing bullshit on him so he actually looked nullish compared to Blitz and StSS.

Also, a word of advice: if you think someone is scum, don't let them bully you around. You let Prims do this to you a lot and I'm not exactly sure why. Lack of confidence seems to be the main issue with a lot of the average players here (StSS is another person who tends to have good reads but second guesses himself).

Proto (Vanilla picked Amnesiac)

You had no way of knowing if the town had any information roles or even if it was likely that it did. Even if they did (for example, if you were one, which you weren't), you had no way of knowing how long they would survive. No Lynch is not viable in NOC unless you have a good reason to believe that a mislynch means you lose and would like another round of night results. If you don't think that talking gets you anywhere, you are simply wrong. Mafia and town have mutually exclusive goals, plus mafia have the burden of information and thus have difficulty acting natural. This can be hard to spot but it is there.

Also when it's looking like you to be lynched, your best course of action is not to ignore it when there is less than 24 hours in the phase. I know this whole thing is kind of your MO, but it's really frustrating because you naturally make the game more difficult than it needs to be, second to people who can't remember what roles do. Also, this isn't just me, since uninformed observers and a lot of players thought you were scum.

Additionally, please do not throw out votes like that at lylo because it lets the mafia do things exactly like what they did. It is the only time where you don't want a flippant vote laying around.

Of any player in this game, I am most disappointed in you (Levity is second for the Blitz vote) because you have been playing NOC for a lot longer than me and yet still do shit like this, which is odd because unlike some people I am pretty sure you actually care and that your inactivity was paritally a result of your sketchy timezone/internet connection.

Rothene (Vanilla picked Amnesiac)

Inactive. I really have nothing else to say other than that please don't sign up for games if you don't care enough/are too busy to play. This actually bothers me more as a host than as a player (which is impressive because I really hate it as a player) because I feel like I failed in design and you're bored or something and feel like you have better things to do. You also had pretty much no memorable opinions from when you did post.

BigBangMeteor (Doctor)

The mafia took this role to deprive the town of it, although ultimately it didn't matter since no one in the town even tried to take it. BBM was much more under the radar than Prims and I think only Elieson really suspected him until Day 3, but despite that he didn't get lynched. That's not to say his play was perfect, but he did a much better job than the majority of the town. BBM was worried about Prims buddying up so much to him but overall it didn't matter that much.

Prims (Follower)

Despite being perhaps the most obvious scum I have seen short of people who claim it because they don't understand the game, Prims was never lynched and somehow escaped being a serious consideration for a lynch target on every day after D1. I am fairly certain that even starving children in Africa suspected that Prims was mafia in this game.

Prims really should have been lynched for his Blitz stealth, but no one even so much as question him on it. What was even more baffling is that it seemed that every member of the town seemed to think Prims was scummy (even Levity thought he was clearly mafia early D2 but backed off for some reason) yet somehow you stopped being a serious suspect for the lynch target after D1. It was almost as though people were afraid to lynch you.

For example, on D2 he hard defended BBM with the intention of claiming he was Follower and saw him being Doctor, and to be honest I am pretty sure this would work because people seem incapable of realizing that traditionally town roles can be useful as mafia too, especially in a game like this where it means you are depriving the town of that role.

I don't really have any criticism of Prims since he played obvscum because he knew he could push people around and get away with it, other than maybe that since subs are more common here don't complain if someone inactive gets subbed out for someone who actually cares or is smarter?

Town MVP: Manix

Mafia MVP: Prims

Edited June 30, 2012 by Paperblade

[Prims]

fun fact: had i rolled town i would've picked redirector, not dayvig. that would've kicked ass, it's like a doctor that can become a vig if you use it right

[Percivalé]

the next time anyone pulls a "it's stupid to suspect me/lynch me"

i'm going to kill them

immediately

just so you know

[Scarlet]

I would probably have picked amnesiac had I gotten in, btw.

[eclipse]

If I had been playing, I totally would've gone dayvig for giggles.

[Prims]

the next time anyone pulls a "it's stupid to suspect me/lynch me"

i'm going to kill them

immediately

just so you know

I don't think scumtells work the way you think they work.

[BBM]

Yeah, I have no clue why Prims didn't get lynched D1. If I was town, I'd have tunnelled in on him so hard. I was actually going to bus him D1 but Prims said that townies are fickle and he actually managed to get the lynch off him, so kudos to him for that. And I actually don't know why Manix DIDN'T go after Prims for the Blitz lynch. D3 I really should've lied and said that Bizz hooked me and therefore stopped my protection on her, but I was scared for some reason and decided not to. Once it looked like I was going to go down though, I put down whatever bullshit reasoning I could think of to try and distance myself from Prims and buddy up to Rothene as much as possible to help Prims D4. But then Proto voted for Rothene and we hammered, so...

If I'd been town I would have probably still picked Doctor. I think the fact that Prims an I were #2/#3 was a huge advantage for us because it basically gave us only one person to worry about who could take our role, and if we hadn't gotten our roles, then we would have had her role confirmed anyways.

[Prims]

I don't think scumtells work the way you think they work.

To elaborate;

Policy lynching somebody for doing something you've seen scum do before is a bad idea because there's pretty much no tell that only scum will ever do.

I wouldn't have talked about how stupid lynching me was if it wasn't something I could see myself doing (and, in this case, have actually done) as town, too.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Prims

[Grace]

I fucking knew it.

Goddammit. See my first post on D3.

sigh.

[Grace]

itt: Manix calls out scum D1 and fails to get them lynched, and finds his scumbuddy pretty much on D2.

fml

Edited June 30, 2012 by Manix

[eclipse]

Read what Paperblade said. I think it'll help you a lot!

[Grace]

random thought: Town wouldn't have won anyway because of Rothene's absence on D3

Because we wouldn't have been able to lynch either Prims or BBM, and then they would have left Rothene alive anyway

[eclipse]

. . .did you read what Paper had to say? ;/

[Grace]

Yes I did. And I really need to change it, because it's happening in most of the games I play in. :/

[Percivalé]

dear prims:

i don't think you know what i'm talking about but it's okay, i'm not arguing with you. next time you use 'stupid' in an argument, i'm killing you. just like everyone else

[Prims]

if you mean "kill them" outside the bounds of the game then seriously get thicker skin because calling a lynch (not even another person) stupid is basically never intended as an actual insult to anybody's intelligence, it's just a way of venting frustration, something that runs high during arguments

Edited July 1, 2012 by Prims

[Percivalé]

it's a scumtell to make people feel guilty by using such language and i'm not going to argue about it

and i mean kill them ingame, i wouldn't actually get that riled up over mafia to seriously threaten people lmao

see: appeal to emotion

and i would rather people avoid that in their playstyles but i'm not one to tell people how to play, i'm just going to choose to be suspicious of someone that does it

Edited July 1, 2012 by adiosToreador

[Prims]

it's a scumtell to make people feel guilty by using such language and i'm not going to argue about it

okay then I did understand what you were saying, you're just wrong (because people with vitriol do that shit regardless of alignment all the time) sry

[Percivalé]

i'm not mad, either. i'm speaking as calmly as possible and i don't feel personally offended at all. guilt-tripping people for being suspicious of you is scummy. that's my opinion.

[Percivalé]

appeal

to

emotion

[Prims]

guilt-tripping people for being suspicious of you is scummy.

yeah but saying "this wagon is fucking retarded" doesn't necessarily have to be an attempt to guilt trip people

Edited July 1, 2012 by Prims

[Percivalé]

also read my post edit back there