Elibean Nights

[CT075]

Most Fire Emblem games give you a reason not to though. Chapter 14 of FE7 Hector Hard Mode for example. You risk losing Erk, Priscilla, and an Iron Blade if you just wait things out

i have literally just sent marcus down to the bottom to grab priscilla, rescued erk with lowen and proceeded to choke at the iron blade village for 15 turns

it isn't that difficult

or, if you care about merlinus (i don't, really), you can have lowen grab erk and the iron blade, marcus grab priscilla and choke at the bridges near the start. i have done this as well but i wouldn't give a demonstration because it's boring as shit

Edited September 7, 2013 by CT075

[Ansem]

In my critiques, I also stated that Lyn's tale is boring and requires very little care in how you handle your units. You can set your units up on either a gate or tree, giving them weapons with range, and then hit "End turn" for the next several turns until only a few enemy units are left.

But at the same time, while I find this design boring, having to fix this WHILE adhering to Archibald's wishes, and retaining all the content within is so limiting in what it allows me to do that maybe I should just stop before I make something completely redundant or barely improved.

I dont think of Lyn's "tale" as a tale. Rather, I see it as a pre-tale because it unlocks Rath's and Kent's. Those two tales have most of the actions. I'm not sure if Arch intended it to be this way, but it sure feels like it. The talk conversation also back up this claim since you'll have units like Kent/Sain and Prasad moving around talking instead of attacking.

[MarkyJoe1990]

i have literally just sent marcus down to the bottom to grab priscilla, rescued erk with lowen and proceeded to choke at the iron blade village for 15 turns

it isn't that difficult

or, if you care about merlinus (i don't, really), you can have lowen grab erk and the iron blade, marcus grab priscilla and choke at the bridges near the start. i have done this as well but i wouldn't give a demonstration because it's boring as shit

Welp.

I got nothin'. You have a really valid point: I could probably employ a turtling strategy and still manage to beat FE7, even if I lose most of the rewards.

I think I'm gonna back off from this. I might still try and change Hector's Tale, but I'm kind of unsure of what to do with it.

[CT075]

i think trying to discourage turtling with rewards is actually a really bad strategy because honestly if you have a good enough sense of tactics to get the reward, you probably don't need it

like, the iron blade would be really helpful in GETTING to the damn village before it gets overrun (not really but run with me for a bit), yet if yo umanage to get there without it then it doesn't really do much (fine, it helps you get the next set of objectives, except that fe's sense of scaling generally works in reverse so it's even easier to get the next one etc)

[MarkyJoe1990]

i think trying to discourage turtling with rewards is actually a really bad strategy because honestly if you have a good enough sense of tactics to get the reward, you probably don't need it

like, the iron blade would be really helpful in GETTING to the damn village before it gets overrun (not really but run with me for a bit), yet if you manage to get there without it then it doesn't really do much (fine, it helps you get the next set of objectives, except that fe's sense of scaling generally works in reverse so it's even easier to get the next one etc)

Doesn't getting the Iron Blade have a long term benefit though?

[CT075]

it does, yes, but if we're assuming that it's difficult to obtain, then the players who are most likely to need the added benefit are precisely the ones who have the most trouble getting it

personal example:

i used to have a lot of trouble getting the brave axe in fe7. a lot of this was because whoever i sent over there couldn't kill the enemies fast enough, so the thief got through. guess what would've seriously helped that (and later chapters)? a brave axe. now that i'm skilled enough to have zero trouble getting the brave axe, i'm also at a skill level where it's way less useful to me than it would have been otherwise (as i've already had to clear the game without it, so i've developed strategies where i don't need it)

Edited September 7, 2013 by CT075

[MarkyJoe1990]

it does, yes, but if we're assuming that it's difficult to obtain, then the players who are most likely to need the added benefit are precisely the ones who have the most trouble getting it

personal example:

i used to have a lot of trouble getting the brave axe in fe7. a lot of this was because whoever i sent over there couldn't kill the enemies fast enough, so the thief got through. guess what would've seriously helped that (and later chapters)? a brave axe. now that i'm skilled enough to have zero trouble getting the brave axe, i'm also at a skill level where it's way less useful to me than it would have been otherwise (as i've already had to clear the game without it, so i've developed strategies where i don't need it)

Huh. >_>'

But I wonder what reason you'd have to get rewards then if you're good then.

Seeing this now, I'm kind of curious to see what other insights you have about level design. I believe I've discussed it before with you, but I'm thinking what you say will greatly benefit me with designing Fire Mumblem.

Also, I think I should change my stance on turtling then. Instead of designing chapters to discourage it, I should design chapters so that the chapter's not tedious when you AREN'T turtling.

Edited September 7, 2013 by MarkyJoe1990

[CT075]

But I wonder what reason you'd have to get rewards then if you're good then.

i do it for completion, honestly, or for ltc purposes (most of what i said holds true for casual play only, if you want to restrict yourself to having the lowest possible turncounts then things like the brave axe seriously are important to have; the difference being that i choose to play in a fashion where it's both necessary and challenging to obtain)

Seeing this now, I'm kind of curious to see what other insights you have about level design. I believe I've discussed it before with you, but I'm thinking what you say will greatly benefit me with designing Fire Mumblem.

i remember having these discussions with you in the past, i wouldn't mind continuing them (my views have changed from then, as well)

you have my skype (well, had) if you want to talk there

[reallylongname]

I'm sort of glad to finally get to play a mostly complete version of the hack. I'll say up front that I've played v4, v5, and some of the jacked up v6 beta. So I have some extensive experience with the earlier tales.

Lyn's Tale:

Too easy. I prefer to think of it as a staging point for training up Rath and Lyn for Rath's Tale. I'm going to praise the Ambush mechanic, for a couple of reasons:

1). The enemies are placed in a way and have stats such that they will provide immediate challenges, but minimal danger.

2). You can control when the Ambush happens. Instead of rushing up to meet Rath immediately, you can move to the right to place Lyn within Florina's range as soon as she shows up, gaining you the Delphi Amulet at an earlier stage. This also places Rath, Prasad, and the allied Kutolah closer to the river, so the crush of red units up north will be broken easier.

3). It's a damn ambush mechanic.

Main criticisms:

1). Wallace is useless. I have trouble getting him killed, but he has trouble killing others as well. He only exists for flavor, really. My recommendation is giving him ranged weapons and placing him closer to the bridge.

2). Guy and Dayan should join on the Player Phase right after the ambush. If they're coming up right behind the ambushing Djute, it seems unfitting that they should suddenly launch themselves into range of being attacked, but without the capability to be controlled by the player first. Their first few fights are practically scripted, because they join up right before the enemy phase, making them a nuisance.

3). Some of the talk events aren't immediately obvious, yet some of them necessary for the better survival of some units. Solvable by, perhaps, a brief conversation between Lyn and her companions concerning seeing Florina in the distance, and how Lyn has a niiiice Delphi Shield to give away.

Rath's Tale:

Now we're onto the serious stuff.

Things that make the chapter easier:

1). Rath is OP with his 1-3 bow and his high stats. Unfortunately, he's just as vulnerable to Sleep and Berserk as the next man.

2). Florina. If you started her with the Delphi Shield from the previous chapter, things are a lot easier. Otherwise, she's a total liability against the Warriors with the Longbows, and gets hampered by the Wyvern Lords. She can scout, kill the godawful staff Druids, and get those annoying chests.

3). Lyn gets released in this Beta, something not present in previous versions. She and Toni add much needed muscle to the team. Between the Mani Katti, the Sol Katti, the Amatsu, and the Swift...Well, she's a killing machine.

Things that make this godawful hard:

1). I can't see. Oh my god, I seriously can't see. Props to you, Arch.

2). The druids, the longbows, and the Pavor bow. God, they're awful. But they're completely fair, because the chapter is a lot easier now due to the addition of the new characters and the reduction of the numbers of those godawful enemies. The one thing that might make the Druids fairer is a Restore staff on Niime and two Salves on some others. Otherwise, the players are totally at the mercy of the enemies.

Kent's Tale:

Downright difficult. You only get a few units, and whatsherface is well guarded and doesn't move unless if its with her honor guard.

I only played it once, and played to win. Oh, and to kill the hell out of the Marquis of Tuscana, who is downright weak. Plus, the houses are just the ones around Castle Caelin. If only that Heavy Lance were more useful. My main difficulty is with how Lyn and Florina have a hard time getting around, because there's always a damn enemy in the way, but that's more aimless bitching than tactical difficulty.

Eliwood's Tale:

I still have trouble with maximizing efficiency on this chapter, and winning within 14 turns. Those berserkers, yes. They're definitely a pain in the ass, considering Harken and Isadora use swords, Eliwood, who pairs with Marcus, uses swords, and Lowen downright sucks, but has to always follow Rebecca around. I hate those Swordslayer Berserkers, because there's simply no effective way of dealing with them, then with the Runesword Myrmidon and the druid afterwards. If there were some method of reducing the walking time (aka, less hallway with redundant chests in), I'd be in for it. Oh, and that staircase mechanic is...not as handy as I'd like.

Merlinus' Tale:

Nothing to say. It is what it is, and not much else. The balancing is pretty good, with Dart being a glass cannon, the snipers being less powerful than before, but still formidable, and the other buffoons being useless fools. My main criticism is with the villages being abandoned at the point they are rebuilt. There's little to be gained by revisiting him, and there are enemies to deal with before villages can be visited. It isn't much of a map, or a chapter. I sort of wish it incorporated some pre-existing elements of Chapter 1 of Eliwood's Tale, but there aren't ruined versions of the villages utilized in that chapter.

Raven's Tale:

A bloody nuisance at first, and needs obvious balancing at the second stage. Gotta kill off the priests healing Alastor, and wish fervently for Raven to suddenly get a better sword (Berveil becomes a lifesaver). There should definitely be some sort of achievement, or a reward for Shen, for revisiting his damn house. Because I went down there, and all I got was a Silver Bow for my pains, which is practically useless to Geitz.

I managed to off both Erk and Arcard. If there were some exceptionally strong units at chokepoints, better than those merely annoying ballisticians. The map and the objectives seem somewhat unsuited to survival, given the positioning, which seems more fitting for a...different sort of map. There are no defined rewards for advancing, other than the sole pleasure derived by killing that which is not meant to be killed. The map is nice, but not the right sort of map.

I've replayed too much of the hack to stomach the challenge of the newer chapters. More to come later. These come merely as suggestions, and ones based only on a few replays.

[Primefusion]

My approach to gameplay, by the way, is "plop units on a map, adjust stats and hope it works." I'm sure there's plenty of room for improvement, I've never taken a very scientific approach to it.

Wow, I'm glad I'm not the only one that does this >_>'

[Arch]

I really don't believe that there's suddenly going to be an influx of graphical changes between this 'beta' and the full release. I'd have taken uniformity over new looking mugs, appropriate or no, it's jarring seeing such a stylized and detailed Lyn when standing next to Rath, then there's Kent who had a haircut and new armour standing with Sain who is still sporting the exact same hair, it's like whoever did the graphics kept changing his mind throughout and wasn't sure of what the overall concept was and what they were doing with the mugs. Seeing Erk also, in his talk with Pent, that alone just is so unnerving due to the graphical quality between the two. If Arch couldn't have gotten updates for all mugs then he should have just left them all as the originals.

Then put up or shut up, man. You are a person capable of changing that, if you really find it so appalling. I rely on the generous contributions of others, they're all from a variety of artists. I'm not a graphics artist, it's just not something I'm good at, so I cannot personally remake every character mug and ensure stylistic consistency. If you want to make a difference, instead of just ranting, then you have the power to do that. If not, your opinions are duly noted.

'Sides, I know it's only a fangame, but when you've got a Paypal donation link on the front page? You've got to step up your game, considerably, when you pull a thing like that into the mix.

Hey, I'm not actively soliciting donations here. It's just a button on the first post. If somebody enjoyed the game enough and felt generous, it's there for that sort of person. For all the time I've spent on this project, I don't think it's ridiculous in the least. You're giving that button faaaaar too much gravity.

There should definitely be some sort of achievement, or a reward for Shen, for revisiting his damn house. Because I went down there, and all I got was a Silver Bow for my pains, which is practically useless to Geitz.

Othin's Pugi is hidden in the chapter, I'm going to put it in there for Shen. Before it was placed on the cave entrance tile, but this is actually, in my mind, a better way. As you pointed out, there's no real reward for getting to his house, other than a conversation about his son (Lott).

Nothing to say. It is what it is, and not much else. The balancing is pretty good, with Dart being a glass cannon, the snipers being less powerful than before, but still formidable, and the other buffoons being useless fools. My main criticism is with the villages being abandoned at the point they are rebuilt. There's little to be gained by revisiting him, and there are enemies to deal with before villages can be visited. It isn't much of a map, or a chapter. I sort of wish it incorporated some pre-existing elements of Chapter 1 of Eliwood's Tale, but there aren't ruined versions of the villages utilized in that chapter.

I'm going to actually think on this one. You raise some valid points worth consideration.

I hate those Swordslayer Berserkers, because there's simply no effective way of dealing with them

The Espontoon. It's from the Marcus -> Eliwood 'talk' event. Brave weapon with triangle advantage against those zerkers.

If there were some method of reducing the walking time (aka, less hallway with redundant chests in), I'd be in for it. Oh, and that staircase mechanic is...not as handy as I'd like.

I'm planning a small little map tweak that'll open up the hallways. Hopefully it'll make the chapter less tedious. I'll rethink the chest rewards, too, considering that we've got those vanishing Rogues to contend with now. Edited September 7, 2013 by The Second Archsage

[Thor Odinson]

Man if you're so anal about consistency you could always fund AK a proper salary to do it since anyone else would risk shitting on the best sprites of the hack

I propose 50 dollars per hour at least for the quality of the output, she deserves at least that much

It's not like artists have lives outside of cranking out mugs or anything nope none at all

[Miacis]

@Arch: *full support for the Pugi idea*

Eliwood's Tale:

I hate those Swordslayer Berserkers, because there's simply no effective way of dealing with them.

Arch pointed out that Marcus gets the Espontoon. I'll go a little further and add that you can just give Isadora his Silver Lance now, and she'll chew up through their health pretty easily for Harken to finish.

[Wayward Winds]

Othin's Pugi is hidden in the chapter, I'm going to put it in there for Shen. Before it was placed on the cave entrance tile, but this is actually, in my mind, a better way. As you pointed out, there's no real reward for getting to his house, other than a conversation about his son (Lott).

Yes, and it would have gone unnoticed in my first playthrough had the following not happened:

>Falcoknight attacks Lucius, gets health slashed in return.

>FalcoKnight flies away. (Me: Where the heck do you think you're going? There's no forts anywhere...)

>FalcoKnight lands on cave, "Pugilist pilfered". (Me: Wait, what?)

> Right, I'll have that! (Heath flies over and takes the axe from the Falcoknight's dead fingers. Only then did I notice the cave was actually a 'fort' tile mechanics wise.

...And a similar event happened in the first part of Legault's tale, as a wounded wyvern rider "pilfered" a hidden bow. I didn't bother going after that one though, given how outnumbered I was at the time.

[Shugey]

Now that I've done EVERYTHING in this current build, I can give some suggestions. First off, I think Guy needs to be more useful. He can't contribute much in Lyn's tale, and now he isn't in Rath's at all. I don't even like Guy, but I feel like he's hardly in the game at all now. Unfortunately, I have no idea on how to do this. Maybe make him playable in Kent's Tale?

The second main suggestion is one that I thought about for a while. In Merlinus's Tale, Wil is the worst unit. Rebecca has better equipment and a great support, and he can't even double most of the enemies. He can't do much in Kent's tale either, as once again he is outclassed, as Dorcas has Axes and an A support. So my crazy idea is to make him a Ranger. I know that reclassing isn't completely out of the question, as there are three other playable Snipers. It just might make him more useful.

Other than that, I can't think of any ideas at the moment. Most of it has already been said. I know most minor issues will be fixed anyway, as this is just a beta. That being said, it's a really fun hack that I appreciate you making. Now I just have to wait for Zephiel's Tale as well as those creative liberties.

[Robert Stewart]

Another dumb question: How do I get the Swift Bow????

[AstraLunaSol]

Wow, I'm glad I'm not the only one that does this >_>'

That's pretty much how I do it, as well.

[Chocolate Kitty]

It's a good thing I go through careful planning for each and every enemy unit, you guys are all noobs!

[SuperXela69]

Another dumb question: How do I get the Swift Bow????

In Kent's Tale, have Lyn visit the house she starts on

Edited September 7, 2013 by SuperXela69

[Robert Stewart]

Also: how many Chest keys are there in Rath's Tale?

[Miacis]

A few more things to report, all in Rath's Tale:

- The Bronze Bow is causing the game to reset again.

- In the northern cluster of chests, The center and top chests contain nothing, but the right one has a Chest Key + Failixir.

- Toni has no death quote.

Also: how many Chest keys are there in Rath's Tale?

Three. One is held my a Druidess in the Southwest. One is in the eastmost chest. One is in the right chest of the northen clutter.

(And there are 13 chests, IIRC, so you need all three keys for the Trororo achievement.)

Edited September 7, 2013 by Miacis

[Majima]

Design-wise, Hectors tale could stand for a bit of improvement, I would say that having the enemies equiped with more armor breaking weapons, and some units that would actually force you to have hot feet [i.E. make you have to get out of dodge before you get swarmed and killed]. Fact of the matter is, Hectors tale has little to no reason to make you wait, and the fact Erik comes to you pretty much fits and makes you wait, assuming you want him on your side with minimal hassle.Marquess Tuscana is too easy to kill with that bolting equipped, as I have had more than one instance as to where he was killed effortlessly by NPCs. Give him a magic spell that wrecks armors and maybe around 21 spd or something to put anyone like Orun, Hector or Oswin in an unfavorable position. I notice in Kents tale Hervor has 50s for HP and some nice well rounded stats, so theres no real reason why the enemy bosses here can't stand to be more threathening. Tuscana could use more mage units to prevent your units like Oswin from staying too still and taking it slow. I mean if you toss them a bit closer to the starting point with a bolting sage in the back that can strike one of the NPCs the player is gunna have to react quickly if he doesn't wish to be overrun. Furthermore the fact is there little to no chance that you'll be reduced to an inert mass of flesh as it currently stands. A map this big should have more units on your side because having what, 4 or 5 units in a map this bloated and big AND its a defeat boss map is really... underwhelming for what it is. Storywise I can't imagine why Kent and Eliwood wouldn't get involved in this some way. You got few units, few liabilies and very little to consider and to lose by just playing this slowly. And thats not in the least, fun. This chapter had some good ideas but you're not put under enough pressure to need to do anything that reall challenges you, hell that Master swordsman down there is tougher than the boss himself, whats with that!? I'm going to leave this criticism here for hope some improvements to be made on a chapter that could have been so much more than what it was. Possibly more to come.

[Haku]

In Marcus' conversation with Eliwood in tale 1, there is a spelling mistake, I'm pretty sure you wrote "cuation" instead of 'caution'.

Edited September 7, 2013 by KoopaTroopa

[Luminar]

after finishing ravens tale... from yesterday, i unlocked louise, karel, and zealots. but after i started visual boy advance today karel and zealot vanished and kents tale caelin in turmoil that i just finished awhile ago reappeared... so i reset visual boy advance again and resume the save and the tale select characters vanish, the screen blackens and makes this loud crazy sound. so i used a save state to complete ravens tale again and zealot and karel reappear...

[Robert Stewart]

after finishing ravens tale... from yesterday, i unlocked louise, karel, and zealots. but after i started visual boy advance today karel and zealot vanished and kents tale caelin in turmoil that i just finished awhile ago reappeared... so i reset visual boy advance again and resume the save and the tale select characters vanish, the screen blackens and makes this loud crazy sound. so i used a save state to complete ravens tale again and zealot and karel reappear...

Yeah, don't do that. Resuming the Tale select causes all kinds of problems. Next time just try using the restart option.