ITT I Rate Pokemon Emerald

[Smiley Jim]

Relicanth

Type: Water/Rock

Ability(s): Swift Swim/Rock Head

The third entry to the underwater portions of the game, Relicanth is essentially the water typed version of Golem and Rhydon. Once again, his contributions are limited due to requiring Dive to access the areas where you can catch him, but the fucker is as elusive as Skarm was with a 5% encounter rate. Adding to the difficulty of acquisition is his 25 catch rate, though unlike Skarm where good quality balls were limited in quantity, the player can buy net and dive balls in Mossdeep to make the snag easier, making the low catch rate negligible.

Coming at around Lv33, Relicanth already comes at a reasonably competent level, and is a beast defensively with 100 HP/130 Def being able to ward off most physical attacks even at this late point in the game, and 65 SpD allows him to take a few special attacks on the side. However, I can't say the same for Relicanth's offense, as while he has a decent 90 base attack, he is stuck with the pitifully weak Rock Tomb until Lv43, where he upgrades to AncientPower (Rock Slide is only gotten by breeding), though thankfully, he does get no recoil Take Down through level and Earthquake through TM, so it isn't completely hopeless. As for his special offense, it is a complete joke with only 45 base in that area, and 55 speed is quite laughable, to say the least.

It should be noted that Relicanth is one of the two Pokemon needed to unlock the Regis, the other being Wailord, though this has absolutely no bearing on his rating. Don't know why I pulled it up, but I did.

Anyway, Relicanth is one of those things that wishes that he joined about 4 gyms earlier, because he would've been amazing to have in Flannery, Norman, and Winona's gyms. But as it is right now, he joins super-de-duper late, so he's not scoring really high.

3.5

Edited October 28, 2014 by James the Salamander

[Ronman5]

To be honest I think that Lantern is fairly fast and hits hard making him slightly better than what you said

and you were on the mark on Relicanth but I feel that you forgot Jigglypuff?

[Smiley Jim]

To be honest I think that Lanturn is fairly fast and hits hard making him slightly better than what you said

and you were on the mark on Relicanth but I feel that you forgot Jigglypuff?

I did not forget about Jigglypuff. She was rated 5 months ago. See it here.

As for Lanturn, I will admit I underrated him slightly, but the point still stands: Generally speaking, stuff that joins late will get a worse rating than something with equivalent parameters, but is available earlier. Had Chinchou joined around, say, on the routes leading up to Lavaridge, he would've rated around a 7.

Relicanth is fine as it is, because once again, that jointime does injustice to one's rating. That and the fact that his offense is pretty sour due to neither having easily accessible strong physical STAB(Rock Tomb's 50 BP hardly cuts it lategame, and AP's 60 BP is not much better)nor having a usable special attack stat(45 SpA is 3/4 of what Gyara's SpA is, and Gyara's SpA isn't impressing anyone.)

[Smiley Jim]

Luvdisc

Type: Water

Ability(s): Swift Swim

Luvdisc is like Spinda if he was faster, but had worse stats everywhere else and joined about 4 gyms later.

Oh god, another bad one coming, and here I thought Spinda was shitty. You can catch these things on Route 128 using the super rod, and she comes at the decent level of 33. However, that is pretty much the only good thing that can be said about Luvdisc, as her stats for this point in the game are complete shit apart from speed, which is at a pretty good 97. On offense, we've got 30 attack and 40 special attack, which is almost sickening to look at at this point in the fucking game(for starters, it manages to make Spinda's offensive stats look excellent in comparison), and an offensive movepool consisting of Surf, Ice Beam, and normal moves (shit every fucking water type gets) does NOT help the damn issue at all. Defensively, we've got 43 HP/55 Def/65 SpD, which is similarly awful and pretty much ensures that she's 2HKO'd at best by a light breeze.

About the only fucking thing that Luvdisc even does remotely well is inflicting status, and even that can be done by things with more bulk. She does get Sweet Kiss and Attract through level, which allows her to pseudo-incapacitate most enemy Pokemon. While this is not exactly efficient at all, a Pokemon that has been infatuated and confused only has a 25% chance of acting, allowing Luvdisc to inflict damage with relative safety. And she's reliant on the enemy not being able to act, because her stats just fucking blow.

In a nutshell, if you are looking for a GOOD lategame water type, then you are sadly looking in the wrong direction. So let's just bury the fucking hatchet and move on to the next Pokemon, because I'm getting queasy just writing this shit down. The only reason she's not getting a 0 is because at least she can do something at base.

0.5

Edited October 28, 2014 by James the Salamander

[Smiley Jim]

Corsola

Type: Water/Rock

Ability(s): Hustle/Natural Cure

By the way, this ratings thread is not dead. Just pointing that out, and it will get finished in time.

Continuing our marathon of shitty Pokemon (as well as things that can be fished up with the super rod), next up on the list is the utterly forgettable Corsola. This thing can be caught at ~Lv33 using the super rod, only one level away from learning Rock Blast. Unfortunately, this is honestly the best thing I can say about her, as her stats for this point in the game are unimpressive, boasting only average bulk, but having lackluster attacking stats and a really shitty speed stat. With stats this awful so late into the game, what can Corsola do that other waters can't?

Corsola is the only Pokemon in the Hoenn dex that gets access to the Hustle ability, which gives a 50% boost to physical moves, but in exchange sodomizes the user's accuracy. This allows Corsola to hit surprisingly hard despite having a shitty 55 base attack, and getting Rock Blast soon after capture helps. However, Rock Blast will have only 64% accuracy after factoring in Hustle, so don't expect it to connect often. As well as RB, she also gets Shadow Ball and Earthquake, but those moves are, of course, very contested. She can also utilize a special set with Calm Mind and Surf/Ice Beam/Psychic if you so desire.

Overall, has a small niche, but not very useful otherwise. Loads of things hit harder than Corsola even after factoring in Hustle.

2

Edited October 28, 2014 by James the Salamander

[Smiley Jim]

Horsea/Seadra/Kingdra

Type: Water, Water/Dragon (Kingdra)

Ability(s): Swift Swim (Horsea/Kingdra), Poison Point (Seadra)

Another water type, this time a rare find on Route 132-134. Horsea is in many ways similar to Trapinch in that he has an awesome final form, but needs a lot of input to get there in the first place. Unlike the Luvdisc and Corsola examples mentioned above, Horsea comes at a fairly low level, being caught at Lv28 on average, or around 15 levels below the party's level. Thankfully, Horsea isn't too far off from evolution at Lv32, so he doesn't have to deal with his crappy unevolved stats for very long.

Unlike Trapinch and Bagon, Seadra can access his final form immediately after evolving due to being a trade evolution, though the issue here is that the player also needs a dragon scale. Unfortunately, there is no easily obtainable dragon scale (and we can't just steal Max and Emmy's dragon scale), so if you want to evolve Seadra, you're going to have to farm them off wild Horsea. The problem with that is that Horsea only has a 5% chance of holding one, and he's a rare encounter at 15%, which results in a cumulative .0075% (or 3/400) chance at success.

So we go through the pain of getting a dragon scale, now what? The evolution gives Kingdra dragon typing, giving him a solitary weakness to dragon (prior to gen VI, anyway, but this isn't about that), as well as neutralizing his weaknesses to electricity and grass. Statwise, Kingdra is very balanced, sporting 95 in all of attack, defense, special attack, and special defense, while having 85 speed and 75 HP. In exchange for such good stats though, Kingdra's movepool is very barren, only getting access to stuff that other water types get, and he doesn't learn any good dragon moves through level (he can't use the Dragon Claw TM).

What if you can't trade or can't be assed to farm dragon scales? In that case, Seadra performs almost identically to Kingdra, the only difference between the two being that Seadra has lower physical attack and special bulk. And having low special bulk actually matters somewhat lategame, since lategame is very special heavy.

Kingdra's awesome, but like with Trapinch, the effort needed to get there simply isn't worth it, at least not this late into the game.

2 (1.5 w/o trade)

Edited October 28, 2014 by James the Salamander

[Smiley Jim]

Bagon/Shelgon/Salamence

Type: Dragon, Dragon/Flying (Salamence)

Ability(s): Rock Head (Bagon/Shelgon), Intimidate (Salamence)

Oh god, another Est type Pokemon... let's see where this goes.

Bagon can be found in the Meteor Falls cave network, but unlike Solrock, this little bastard is tucked away in a small cave that requires Waterfall to access, which essentially means that you can't get him until the end of the game. With availability this late, what sort of contribution can he make?

Simply put, very little, if not none. Bagon joins very underleveled, being caught at Lv30 on average and Lv35 at maximum, with very poor stats for this point in the game. At the very least, being caught at Lv35 means that he only needs one level to evolve, but that isn't saying much as Shelgon's stats are on par with Linoone and Mightyena. And we all know how awesome their stats are. And Shelgon is kind of stuck with his shitty stats for a while, as he doesn't evolve into Salamence until... Lv50. I am not fucking joking. To give an idea on how late Shelgon evolves, the ONLY Pokemon that have a steeper evolution level than this prior to gen V are Dragonair and Pupitar at Lv55 each (and neither are in the Hoenn dex). Good lord.

So we'll be extremely generous and have Shelgon evolved by the time we reach the Pokemon League, so what are the changes? The first thing you'll notice, besides the flying typing Mence gets, is that his stats are through the fucking roof. Salamence has a massive 600 base stat total, which is among the highest out of any non legendary (only Slaking exceeds this), and has no glaring stat flaws whatsoever. On offense, we have 135 attack, which is among the highest in the game, beating out monsters like Machamp and Breloom, and in fact, the only non-legendary who has a higher attack stat in Generation III is Slaking. 110 special attack, while it pales in comparison to his attack, is still above average, and having 100 speed helps. Defensively, Salamence could be a bit better, but I think that 95/80/80 bulk with Intimidate access is good enough, all things considered.

Mence also has a really nice movepool, though unfortunately, his best level up moves are learned far too late unless Bagon's evolution is held off. While Lv33 Dragon Breath will certainly leave a dent in anything it touches, it is barely possible to get Dragon Claw through level up before the credits... at Lv49 (Mence learns Dragon Claw at... Lv79. Be thankful the TM exists.) Another helpful move that can only be gotten by holding off evolution is Crunch, learned at Lv41 (Mence gets it at Lv61, still too late by ingame standards, and unlike Dragon Claw, there's no Crunch TM.) Mence is also one of the very few Pokemon that gets an HM move through level up, getting Fly upon evolving. He also gets quite a few notable moves through TM, including Brick Break, Earthquake, and Flamethrower.

While this is certainly impressive, remember that it takes a significant amount of grinding to get a Mence in the first place, which I highly doubt any efficient player will stand to do. As it is right now, Bagon is getting a very low score, on the basis that he just joins too fucking late and underleveled for his own good. However, if you can get him there, he's excellent, which puts him above the likes of Spinda, in my opinion.

1.5

Edited November 30, 2014 by James the Salamander

[Smiley Jim]

Mawile

Type: Steel

Ability(s): Hyper Cutter/Intimidate

The last non legendary Pokemon I have to cover, and this took long enough. Mawile can be caught in the lower floors of Victory Road at an average level of 43 if you make your capture on B2F. So while he is more or less at your level (well, he's about 4-7 levels below par, but that's beside the point), I can't say the same for his stats, which are 50-55 across the board except for attack and defense, which are 85 each. Even if Mawile joined at the same time as, say, Torkoal, his stats would still be laughable. But no. Instead, he has Delcatty-esque stats at a point in the game where most good things have around a 480 BST or above.

Mawile's movepool isn't the worst I've encountered, but it certainly could be better. Notably, he doesn't learn any STAB moves, like, at all, and the only notable physical move he gets is Brick Break. He gets a lot of special moves, but his special attack is fucking atrocious. Thankfully, he does get Fake Tears through relearner to compensate, but let's be perfectly fucking honest here: it hurts.

With availability and stats this atrociously bad, how can Mawile possibly contribute in an efficient run? Well, he resists the STABs of every single member of the E4, and the first three have barely anything that can hit Steel at least neutrally. At the very least, he can use Brick Break to hit Sidney and Glacia's parties hard, and can employ a Fake Tears+Crunch strategy against Phoebe. While he resists Drake's primary STAB, he has too many things that hit Steel super effective, and Kingdra hits him pretty hard with Surf. And Wallace obviously sodomizes him.

To be quite honest, even if Mawile had the availability he had in Ruby, he'd still be bad. However, the whole double whammy of shit availability+shit stats dooms him here. He does get fairy typing and a Mega Evolution in X/Y, but unfortunately, it came too little too late to salvage him here.

1

Edited October 28, 2014 by James the Salamander

[Smiley Jim]

Regirock, Regice, and Registeel

Type: Rock (Regirock), Ice (Regice), Steel (Registeel)

Ability(s): Clear Body

Oh god, this one is going to get very long, so as to avoid massive text walls, I'm going to spoiler tag the entries.

So we now cover the legendary trio of this game, and while they can't hold a candle to the legendary birds of olde, they still have a massive 580 BST and a high base level of 40. In a stark contrast to the birds, who you can catch once you have access to the dungeon they are in, the regis require a more convoluted method, which I'll be glad to explain.

In order to unlock the caves which they are imprisoned in, one must travel to Route 134, sticking along the south edge of the preceding routes. Once there, the player should find a solitary dive spot, which if traversed, will lead to a braille tablet. Surfacing while next to this tablet will send the player into a cave with braille tablets. In order to access the next room, the player must go to the northernmost part of the room and use Dig next to the tablet that is there (if you used up your Dig TM and overwritten it, you're shit out of luck unless you train a Trapinch to Lv41 or a Nincada to Lv45. Note that only those two and not their evolutions learn Dig naturally). Once in that room, to actually open up the tombs in which these beasts are held, one then needs to put a Wailord in the first slot and a Relicanth in the last slot (note that Relicanth is a 5% encounter in the underwater sections of Routes 124 and 126 and Wailord can either be evolved from a Wailmer at Lv40 or be found on Route 129 with a 1% encounter rate.)

Once inside the caves, it's only a matter of what you must do to undo the final lock and reach your legendary. To get Regirock, one needs to go two steps left, two steps down for the tablet and use Rock Smash. For Regice, one must walk along the perimeter of the first room, and to get Registeel, one needs to go to the center of the room and use Flash. The only thing left to do now is catch your legendary, which isn't exactly a walk in the park, as they each have a catch rate of 3. Even if you have a sleep move handy and get the Pokemon to <5% HP, you only have a 4.366% chance of catching them with Ultra Balls, which equates to around 25 balls needed on average. Even if you stall for 40 turns and use timer balls, you still have only a 9.265% chance of a successful capture, or around 10 balls.

[spoiler=Regirock]

While their typings, movepools, and stat distributions are different, one thing can be best summarized about them: the regis are all built like tanks, and Regirock is no exception. Sporting a colossal 200 base defense, Regirock has the highest defense stat in the entirety of the Hoenn dex, and in fact, is only dwarfed by Shuckle as of Gen V. This kind of defense means that Regirock will basically never die to unboosted physical attacks, super effective be damned. And he's no slouch on the special side either, with 80 HP/100 SpD being able to withstand all but the strongest water hits (so avoid Juan and Wallace, and you're golden), which is impressive considering that the entirety of the lategame is composed of water. Granted, being rock typed hurts his durability with its five weaknesses, but he still delivers.

With that out of the way, how's he doing offensively? Regirock sports a rather high 100 base attack and has access to Curse, but like Relicanth, he suffers from a lack of especially strong STAB. Because let's be quite honest here: Rock Throw's 50 BP really sucks by the point in the game, and Ancient Power's 60 BP is little better, not to mention the latter has very little PP. Thankfully, he does get pretty nice coverage in the form of Superpower, a 120 BP fighting move that drops atk/def by one stage after use (and is also useful against Sidney), though he is compatible with Earthquake should you not want a move that drops your stats. He can also get Explosion through the relearner, and while Thunderbolt access is cute, 50 SpA is not. He is also very slow, sporting the same speed stat as Aggron (this is a stat all three Regis share).

Overall, a very potent tank, but a shame his typing sucks in Hoenn's lategame.

3.5

[spoiler=Regice]

Regice is, in a way, Regirock's polar opposite in that while Regirock has a physical bias and rock typing, Regice has ice typing and an overwhelming special bias. With a base special defense of 200 (which no other Hoenn Pokemon even comes close to), Regice is virtually indestructible on the special side, and it helps that Ice has no special weaknesses outside of the now scarce fire (and that isn't saying much, as Ice is still one of the worst defensive typings in the game.) While I can't say the same for his physical defense, 80 HP/100 Def is still on par with Walrein, so he can take a fluke rock/fighting hit if need be.

Due to the general better quality of special attacks, Regice has a better offensive game than his brethren, sporting the same special attack stat as Starmie and Milotic, and having access to STAB Ice Beam (as opposed to being stuck with the pathetically weak AncientPower and Metal Claw.) He can also use Thunderbolt to great effect, and Electric/Ice is damn near unresisted (only Lanturn and Magneton resist both in Gen III.) Unfortunately, his physical coverage is kind of wasted on a 50 base attack, but it's still enough to make Explosion hurt a bit.

While both are shitty defensive typings, Ice is better than Rock lategame due to not having a water weakness. That and high special defense is more valuable than high defense lategame.

4

[spoiler=Registeel]

Registeel can be best described as the middleman between the other two regis. While Regirock is supreme on the physical side and Regice is the same on the special side, Registeel falls between both extremes and while 150s in either defensive stat pale in comparison to Regirock and Regice's stronger defensive stat, the stats themselves are still very high, and it helps that Steel is a far better defensive typing than Rock or Ice could ever hope to be, with its 11 resistances and complete immunity to poison.

Sadly, his offense is horrible in comparison to his brethren, with only 75 in either attacking stat. Not helping his case is the fact that Steel, while a great defensive typing, is horrible offensive typing (it's essentially a crappier Fighting, while Rock and Ice are both good offensive types), and just to pour salt on an already gangrenous wound, the only STAB he gets is Metal Claw, which is a pretty bad attack at this point in the game. At the very least, he gets Earthquake, Thunderbolt, Superpower, and Explosion access, but he still begs to have a better attacking stat and/or get Meteor Mash.

Great mixed tank capable of surviving just about anything the final bosses throw at him, well minus things like Flygon's Earthquake. All he really needs is a higher attack stat and a stronger STAB move.

3

P.S: Good god, that took forever to write.

Edited October 28, 2014 by James the Salamander

[Smiley Jim]

Rayquaza

Type: Dragon/Flying

Ability(s): Air Lock

Here it is, the long awaited rating for the game's cover legendary, and what a way to end a ratings guide too. In any case, Rayquaza is the game's signature cover legendary, and like with all legendaries, while he isn't required to beat the game, he certainly makes the final bits a hell of a lot easier.

Rayquaza can be found on the top floor of the Sky Tower upon clearing Groudon and Kyogre from Sootopolis City, with a base level of 70. Yes, you heard me correctly. LEVEL. FUCKING. SEVENTY. To put things into perspective, Wallace's highest leveled Pokemon is only Lv58. Now imagine the total curbstomp that you will inflict by using this thing against regular trainers, or even Juan and Wally, who's strongest Pokemon are Lv46 and Lv45, respectively. Of course, being a legendary, he is VERY difficult to catch. Being at Lv70 (which is 20 levels above what your endgame level should be) with a catch rate of 3 (on top of having Rest), I highly doubt you even stand a snowball's chance in hell of catching him unless you use the Master Ball.

Not only is Rayquaza brutally overleveled, his stats are off the charts with a base stat total of 680, the highest in the game (in fact, as of Gen V, only Arceus's 720 and Black/White Kyurem's 700 exceed this). To make things even more awesome, Ray has some of the best offenses in the entire game with 150s in either attacking stat. This would be completely ridiculous on a non legendary, and even most other legendaries have only one attacking stat that's 150 or above. It helps that Ray is also quite fast and while his durability pales in comparison to some of the tankier 680's such as Lugia, 105/90/90 bulk still beats out pretty much any non legendary sweeper.

Movepool? Out of this world. Rayquaza already comes with some pretty nice moves, including Fly, ExtremeSpeed (a stronger version of Quick Attack) and Outrage (a Dragon type Thrash clone), as well as Crunch and Dragon Claw through relearner, but he gets a wide range of TMs/HMs including, but not limited to: Earthquake, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Flamethrower, and Surf.

Overall, very game breaking when you have him, but is gotten very, very late. Call him the Pokemon version of Athos, if you will. While I'd give a perfect score to Ray, availability this bad means that you can only do so much.

5

Edited October 28, 2014 by James the Salamander

[Smiley Jim]

The Final Tally:

Treecko - 6.5
Torchic - 9
Mudkip - 10
Poochyena - 3.5
Zigzagoon - 6
Beautifly - 3.5
Dustox - 2.5
Wingull - 6.5
Lotad - 3.5
Seedot - 5.5
Ralts - 7.5
Taillow - 8.5
Marill - 6.5
Shroomish - 9
Slakoth - 6.5
Skitty - 2
Abra - 7.5
Ninjask - 3.5
Shedinja - 4
Whismur - 6.5
Magikarp - 7
Tentacool - 7
Goldeen - 3.5
Zubat - 5
Geodude - 6.5
Makuhita - 8
Aron - 6.5
Sableye - 6
Nosepass - 0.5
Electrike - 7
Plusle - 4
Minun - 3.5
Oddish - 4.5
Gulpin - 5.5
Volbeat - 4
Illumise - 2.5
Numel - 4
Slugma - 1.5
Torkoal - 6
Machop - 7.5
Koffing - 5
Grimer - 4.5
Spinda - 1
Skarmory - 6.5
Swablu - 3
Seviper - 4
Solrock - 5
Spoink - 5.5
Wynaut - 4
Sandshrew - 3.5
Trapinch - 3.5
Baltoy - 2.5
Cacnea - 6.5
Lileep - 3
Anorith - 5.5
Jigglypuff - 4
Magnemite - 7
Voltorb - 5
Carvanha - 7.5
Corphish - 6.5
Wailmer - 6
Barboach - 7
Feebas - 0
Tropius - 6
Castform - 5
Kecleon - 4.5
Absol - 6
Shuppet - 4.5
Duskull - 2.5
Vulpix - 5
Chimecho - 1.5
Doduo - 5.5
Natu - 2.5
Girafarig - 5
Pikachu - 6
Psyduck - 5.5
Rhyhorn - 1.5
Phanpy - 2
Heracross - 6
Pinsir - 5
Staryu - 4
Spheal - 4.5
Snorunt - 2.5
Clamperl - 3
Huntail - 4
Gorebyss - 4.5
Chinchou - 5.5
Relicanth - 3.5
Luvdisc - 1
Corsola - 2
Horsea - 2
Bagon - 1.5
Mawile - 1
Regirock - 3.5
Regice - 4
Registeel - 3
Rayquaza - 5

Overall: 452.5/97= 4.66

With these results, I have also formulated a tier list to better organize the results:

[spoiler=Tier List]

SS Tier:

Mudkip:

S Tier:

Torchic

Shroomish

Taillow

Makuhita

A Tier:

Ralts

Abra

Machop

Carvanha

Treecko

Electrike

Barboach

Magnemite

Tentacool

Magikarp

B Tier:

Skarmory

Cacnea

Corphish

Marill

Geodude

Aron

Slakoth

Wailmer

Zigzagoon

Sableye

Pikachu

Heracross

Tropius

Absol

Torkoal

C Tier:

Anorith

Doduo

Spoink

Seedot

Psyduck

Chinchou

Rayquaza

Pinsir

Voltorb

Castform

Zubat

Koffing

Vulpix

Oddish

Grimer

Kecleon

Shuppet

Spheal

Gorebyss

D Tier:

Numel

Plusle

Staryu

Huntail

Jigglypuff

Volbeat

Regice

Seviper

Wyanut

Shedinja

Minun

Regirock

Sandshrew

Trapinch

Beautifly

Ninjask

Lotad

Poochyena

Goldeen

Relicanth

E Tier:

Registeel

Swablu

Lileep

Clamperl

Baltoy

Snorunt

Illumise

Duskull

Natu

Phanpy

Horsea

Corsola

F Tier:

Skitty

Slugma

Chimecho

Rhyhorn

Bagon

Spinda

Mawile

Wendy Tier:

Luvdisc

Nosepass

Feebas

And that's a wrap.

Edited July 4, 2013 by General James

[BBM]

Gotta say I think Tropius got overrated. HM utility is only good if you come early. By the time you pick up Tropius, you've already had to use Cut, Flash, Strength, and Rock Smash, meaning the only HM that another slave isn't already providing is Fly. But Fly is actually pretty good in-game, so you might as well just teach it to Swellow.

Compare that to Rayquaza, who can pretty much solo the game after he comes, even if it's late... I'd go with Rayquaza. I've never used my Master Ball on Rayquaza either- you just have to come packed with some status and plenty of pots and Ultra Balls.

[HeoandReo]

I think that Dustox might be able to move up a notch mostly because of easy access to Protect, which makes him a really good pinch hitter for some harder enemy mons. Although I admit he's a lot more useful in RS instead of Emerald because it instantly wins against Norman's 2 Slakings. You can stick Toxic on him from the FIery Path (or if you're patient, have him learn it himself) and toxistall them easily. After Norman he's not going to be doing anything though because Winona and Tate & Liza eat him alive.

I also think that maybe Treecko should go down, mostly because Grass isn't the best type to have in Hoenn aside from Roxanne, (whose Nosepass can still easily kill Treecko thanks to STAB Rock Tomb) Tate & Liza, and Juan/Wallace. He can't do anything to Wattson's steels, loses to Flannery and Winona, and probably isn't doing well against Norman thanks to everything there hitting on his lower defense. With Shroomish, you at least get Fighting access to deal with stuff like Magnemites in Mauville and Norman's gym. Treecko literally does not get access to any (reliable) attack greater than 50 BP until Level 29 with Leaf Blade, which is really rough because his best STAB until then (Absorb) does 30, STAB included.

Lastly, I also might point out that Heracross does have a niche in being a bulky and strong Resttalker, so he's quite a bit more salvageable than other lategame mons. You get Rest in literally the next city and can pick up Sleep Talk in Fortree, and sleep does activate Guts, iirc so he can hit hard and last forever. Tate & Liza along with the Magma base is problematic, though, but at least he beats Mightyenas cleanly. (not counting Team Aqua's Carvanhas/Sharpedos since they have all the durability of fine china) Machop can probably do this too, though, so I don't know if it's enough to bring Hera's rank up.

Edited June 30, 2013 by HeoandReo

[Smiley Jim]

Gotta say I think Tropius got overrated. HM utility is only good if you come early. By the time you pick up Tropius, you've already had to use Cut, Flash, Strength, and Rock Smash, meaning the only HM that another slave isn't already providing is Fly. But Fly is actually pretty good in-game, so you might as well just teach it to Swellow.

Compare that to Rayquaza, who can pretty much solo the game after he comes, even if it's late... I'd go with Rayquaza. I've never used my Master Ball on Rayquaza either- you just have to come packed with some status and plenty of pots and Ultra Balls.

Hm, on second thought, yes. I may have overrated lategame HM utility, especially in regards to what Tropius gets. Considering that Fly and Strength are actually viable combat moves, the only HMs to look at are Cut, Flash, and Rock Smash. And I gotta say, Cut technically isn't required to progress through the game, but you can't reach certain trainers and items without it. And by the time the player can get Tropius, the only items that require Cut are a nugget and two rare candies. As for Rock Smash, while that is required to get through two mandatory dungeons after getting Tropius, but considering that both dungeons are in the water laden parts of the game, you're better off getting a Wailmer or something that can get all of Rock Smash, Dive, and Waterfall. I'm not even going to mention Flash. Only useful in one lategame dungeon, and Victory Road is somewhat easy to navigate without it.

Yeah, his rating is going down.

I think that Dustox might be able to move up a notch mostly because of easy access to Protect, which makes him a really good pinch hitter for some harder enemy mons. Although I admit he's a lot more useful in RS instead of Emerald because it instantly wins against Norman's 2 Slakings. You can stick Toxic on him from the FIery Path (or if you're patient, have him learn it himself) and toxistall them easily. After Norman he's not going to be doing anything though because Winona and Tate & Liza eat him alive.

I'm going to be perfectly blunt here: Using a Toxistall strategy isn't particularly efficient ingame due to the fact that it takes a long time for Toxic to take effect(around 5 turns I believe). And there's more efficient means to kill Norman's Slaking. And let's be quite honest; what's Dustox doing between Brawly and Norman? Flannery rips him apart and he's honestly doing very little to Watson due to having lol50 offenses. Not to mention he's undesirable against Team Magma. Yeah, he's staying as is.

I also think that maybe Treecko should go down, mostly because Grass isn't the best type to have in Hoenn aside from Roxanne, (whose Nosepass can still easily kill Treecko thanks to STAB Rock Tomb) Tate & Liza, and Juan/Wallace. He can't do anything to Wattson's steels, loses to Flannery and Winona, and probably isn't doing well against Norman thanks to everything there hitting on his lower defense. With Shroomish, you at least get Fighting access to deal with stuff like Magnemites in Mauville and Norman's gym. Treecko literally does not get access to any (reliable) attack greater than 50 BP until Level 29 with Leaf Blade, which is really rough because his best STAB until then (Absorb) does 30, STAB included.

You know, you actually do have a valid point. Treecko's offense sucks until Lv29 due to Absorb being a horrendous piece of shit and Bullet Seed having only 10 more BP on average, and this is piled on top of grass being resisted by seven types. But pretty much every other grass type has this problem, and for most of them, it's much worse, largely due to the fact that they get stronger STAB far later than Lv29, that is, if they even get a stronger STAB at all(if they don't, they are reliant on the Giga Drain TM, which is gotten after the sixth gym.)

That being said, Treecko will likely be dropped half a point.

Lastly, I also might point out that Heracross does have a niche in being a bulky and strong Resttalker, so he's quite a bit more salvageable than other lategame mons. You get Rest in literally the next city and can pick up Sleep Talk in Fortree, and sleep does activate Guts, iirc so he can hit hard and last forever. Tate & Liza along with the Magma base is problematic, though, but at least he beats Mightyenas cleanly. (not counting Team Aqua's Carvanhas/Sharpedos since they have all the durability of fine china) Machop can probably do this too, though, so I don't know if it's enough to bring Hera's rank up.

While you do bring up a few points, I see a few cons in regards to RestTalk strategies, mostly reliability based ones. While it is true that Guts will activate if asleep, the problem is that you only have a 33.3% chance of having the correct attack selected, and another 33.3% chance of Rest being selected and your turn being wasted as a result(the odds on this happening at least once in the two turns you spend sleeping is 55.6%.)

I might give it a mention, but it's not likely to affect anyone's ratings.

Edited July 4, 2013 by General James

[HeoandReo]

I'm going to be perfectly blunt here: Using a Toxistall strategy isn't particularly efficient ingame due to the fact that it takes a long time for Toxic to take effect(around 5 turns I believe). And there's more efficient means to kill Norman's Slaking. And let's be quite honest; what's Dustox doing between Brawly and Norman? Flannery rips him apart and he's honestly doing very little to Watson due to having lol50 offenses. Not to mention he's undesirable against Team Magma. Yeah, he's staying as is.

You know, you actually do have a valid point. Treecko's offense sucks until Lv29 due to Absorb being a horrendous piece of shit and Bullet Seed having only 10 more BP on average, and this is piled on top of grass beng resisted by seven types. But pretty much every other grass type has this problem, and for most of them, it's much worse, largely due to the fact that they get stronger STAB far later than Lv29, that is, if they even get a stronger STAB at all(if they don't, they are reliant on the Giga Drain TM, which is gotten after the sixth gym.)

That being said, Treecko will likely be dropped half a point.

In my own experience, I've managed to drag Dustox kicking and screaming to a little past Norman, but I had to drop him afterwards. I like the Toxistall thing as a niche or in case you find yourself underleveled for Norman, and Psychic offense is alright for midgame, but keeping him where he is seems fair enough since he kind of sucks everywhere else.

Regarding your point on Treecko, I'm also not sure if Grass STAB is even really worth much ingame, since most of the things it beats can easily be beaten by other mons. Stuff like Geodudes are hit just as hard by Mudkip and Wingull's Water Gun, and lots of water types have other types that offset the grass weakness. (Lotad is Water/Grass, Wingull is Water/Flying, etc.) About the only time it might come in useful early on might be against stuff like Marills, and even then Absorb's low power means that it's more effective to use stronger secondary STAB most of the time. Absorb has 60 BP with STAB and against a weakness, but something like Marshtomp's Mud Shot does 75, Wingull's Wing Attack does 90(!) while Breloom's Mach Punch matches with 60 including STAB, but it's coming off of 130 attack, so it'll still hit pretty hard. He might have a case against stuff like Barboaches, but the last time I played, those were pretty rare.

[Smiley Jim]

Disregard this post. I accidentally posted in the wrong thread. Carry on then.

Edited July 7, 2013 by General James

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

Well in all fairness you dont have to use dustox like at all after like hitting mauville to have protect+toxic on norman. as long as you have those 2 moves its irrelevant what level you are against slaking. You really dont have to use dustox after its good earlygame to have that norman win.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Sho.M.the.Fallen

[HeoandReo]

Well in all fairness you dont have to use dustox like at all after like hitting mauville to have protect+toxic on norman. as long as you have those 2 moves its irrelevant what level you are against slaking. You really dont have to use dustox after its good earlygame to have that norman win.

Yeah, for the most part when I used him, Dustox was literally just around as insurance in case things went south for that battle. He gets Protect at level 17, if my memory's right, and thanks to stuff like Brawly and Oddishes/Roselias it won't take too long for him to get there. After that, we can probably just stick him in the box until then to be replaced with something else. Again, that niche is a bit more useful in RS, since Norman has 2 Slakings there instead of one.

I'm trying to remember if there's other Slakings worth mentioning, but the only ones that comes to mind is the double battle near Mt. Pyre with a Spinda, and another in Victory Road, and those are too far ahead for Dustox to even keep up. (Not to mention that they're Double Battles, so he'll probably get creamed anyway by the non-Truant partner)

Edited July 9, 2013 by HeoandReo