Levin has a sad life

[Original Alear]

I figure if you get possessed by Holsety, and you actually see something like the lopt cult, and then you more-or-less see the end of lopt, that's probably going to bring you a feeling of profound relief, EVEN if you're not totally sure it's the end of Lopt.

I don't remember Levin's mom so for now she's going to be named Ranha. Tbh I am tempted to call Levin Forseti through this entire post.

Anyway, if I was going to target when Levin starts searching for a new life, it's when he makes an oath to his mom to "stay by her forever" or something like that, and then she releases him from the oath it a couple of lines later.

I imagine Ranha probably realized what Levin felt, or pretty closely understood it. Probably realized that his love for Manhya and his love for his mom and his loyalty to his queen and his loyalty to his country were mixed up beyond telling. Not only the emotions to those people, but the responsibilities entailed. You know, even if Levin didn't love Manhya, he probably would have felt like he failed her after finding out she died. Maybe Ranha didn't even realize Fury or whoever was also in the picture (I guess if Levin doesn't get paired, they might not have been).

But, she pushed him towards fighting with Sigurd, because she knew that's where he would end up anyway. Even if he wouldn't, that's where he belonged.

And, I think Levin pretty much found his new life when he got the Holsety tome. And like Ranha figures, he really is a child of the wind.

As to what the logic would be if the Levin/Ranha conversation does not happen, but most of the rest we'd expect does, I got no fuggin clue.

[Bookoostrikes]

Honestly, I didn't even feel that bad for Tiltyu to be honest. I mostly had feels for Levin and Sigurd if anything.

[Integrity]

Tiltyu's inbetweenstory isn't shoved in your face like those two. It's really pretty shitty, and you'd be a monster to have no feels for her.

[Rehab]

I was going to go through the Gen I cast and see who actually got off ok, but I seem to have forgotten where to find that info. Der

Aideen just kinda retires in peace, right? I seem to have gotten the implication that all the men died on the spot, with the possible exception of Azel who might've basically been put under house arrest.

[Integrity]

I've got it in my head that Aideen is still alive as of Gen 2.

Briggid is another one who got off ...not terribly, all things considered.

[charlie_]

I don't think the death of anyone except Sigurd/Levin/Chalphy Knights are explicitly said to have died, although they don't say anything about any of the fathers, if I remember correctly, but we get a good idea about what happened to all of the mothers.

Ethlin is kind of dead.

Aideen is in Tilanogue I think.

Ayra and Lachesis are missing.

Sylvia survived Barhara and left Corple/Leen in the orphanage in Darna.

Fury died after Barhara.

Briggid lives and loses her memories.

Tiltyu dies by Hilda's abuse.

I feel the worst for Tiltyu/Tinny and for Levin!Fee. Levin is an absolute jerk to her and Sety.

[Renall]

I've got it in my head that Aideen is still alive as of Gen 2.

Briggid is another one who got off ...not terribly, all things considered.

It could just be the translation patch, but I seem to recall Lester and Lana talking about their mother as if she is alive. Their tone is present-tense rather than past-tense, and Aideen wasn't that old. There's no particular reason she wouldn't be alive... although then again there's no particular reason they'd never even show her again except that they were lazy and didn't want to make an older portrait for her or something.

The timing of Nanna and Delmud's recollections of their mother in Thracia also pretty much demonstrate that Lachesis was alive after Barhara but disappeared later. If I'm remembering this right, she fled to Isaac with Aideen and Oifaye/Shanan, left Delmud with them to go to Leinster, stayed with Fin during that time and gave birth to Nanna (and may have had a thing with him depending upon your view of Nanna's parentage), then left to go back to Isaac and never got there. She hadn't been seen since, with the implication she'd been captured or killed by the Lopt Sect while crossing through Yied. Though I seem to recall the "dream scenario" put her back in Agustria somehow, I don't pretend to know why.

And then there's Fury who Sety bitches out Levin over in FE4 and FE5. There's no way he could be mad at him for leaving her if she died at Barhara because he was there so they would've died together in that instance, and it's implied she was queen for a while so she almost certainly was alive long enough for Sety and Fee to know her. The implication seems to be that her death was relatively recent, and that Fee might have left Silesia with Arthur precisely to tell her brother and father about that. I forget if Sety already knows or not before joining.

So at the very least by what FE4 tells us Aideen, Fury, Tiltyu and Sylvia had to have survived past the Battle of Barhara because it would've been extremely difficult for them to do the things they supposedly did if they were dead and in the case of Aideen she's stated more or less directly to still be alive. Thracia further tells us Lachesis survived and disappeared for other reasons, and flat-out shows us that Briggid survived.

So as of the end of Jugdral as we know it, Aideen and Briggid are definitely alive (or most likely), Sylvia and Lachesis possibly are, and Fury and Tiltyu are definitely dead (as are Ethlin and Deirdre, but everybody is aware of that). So the only mother completely unaccounted for is Ayra. We don't know if she survived Barhara at all and if she did what became of her later. Since her children were twins, she only had to give birth once. That's all I got about her.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

I'm pretty sure Lachesis dies in between Gen 1 and Thracia 776. I recall hearing that she was originally going to be a stone in 24x like Evayle briggid.

[Thor Odinson]

Lachesis went to look for Delmud and left Nanna to Fin but she wasn't heard from again. Could be stoned or could just have died.

My headcanon is that Ayra died a warrior's death in battle at Barhara. But that's just a headcanon.

[Renall]

My headcanon is that Ayra died a warrior's death in battle at Barhara. But that's just a headcanon.

I'd prefer this only because otherwise every single mother was somehow spared or able to escape, which would just kinda stretch plausibility as it makes Alvis seem really sloppy somehow. I mean, surely he managed to kill at least one mother. Hell, if you go by the additional materials' suggestions he didn't even kill that many people. I guess it would make sense that Tiltyu and Azel might end up spared though, but Alvis has pretty much every reason to kill the rest of them off and honestly it'd look kinda suspicious to Brian/Dannan/Blume/Azmur if he didn't.

The best explanation I can think of is that story and gameplay diverge here and a lot of the mothers actually did heed their husbands/lovers in leaving at some point before Alvis ambushed them. Honestly I couldn't come up with any better explanation for Aideen surviving unless she was actually with Shanan and Oifaye at the time, as otherwise who the hell would be fighting for her? Who got her from Grandbell to Isaac without Alvis noticing? It'd make more sense if she and perhaps some nameless soldiers from Sigurd's army split off and caught up with the convoy that Shanan and Oifaye were leading to Isaac, or just went with them in the first place.

Otherwise Alvis was tied up with Sigurd and Manfroy was busy with Levin and everybody else just somehow left or something.

[Thor Odinson]

I think Aideen was indeed a storyline-gameplay separation case, as I'm pretty sure she ended up the same place as Shanan and Oifaye and the kids. I've read somewhere that Briggid was a similar case to Levin where she did die but then Ichival/Ulir/dragonwhatever pulled something funny, but I'm not sure where I read that so don't take my word on it.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Zhuge Liang

[Jotari]

On the subject of sad lives, don't forget about Alvis. Apparently he has a terrible relationship with his father to begin with which ended in suicide. Malfoy black mails him with his lopto blood (which was a pretty serious witch hunting style deal), but worst of all is how everything falls to pieces for him after his apparent victory. He had good intentions in mind when he instigated the Barhara massacre and indeed things were good for a time, but then he finds out that the woman he loved is his sister and he's after given birth to what is pretty much satan spawn. His wife dies and his utopia falls apart under with the lopt sec running amok. By the time Celice fights him it seems quite clear he's pretty much suicidal himself over all the shit that's happened mostly because of his own actions and unfortunate heritage.

[Tamanoir]

On the subject of sad lives, don't forget about Alvis. Apparently he has a terrible relationship with his father to begin with which ended in suicide. Malfoy black mails him with his lopto blood (which was a pretty serious witch hunting style deal), but worst of all is how everything falls to pieces for him after his apparent victory. He had good intentions in mind when he instigated the Barhara massacre and indeed things were good for a time, but then he finds out that the woman he loved is his sister and he's after given birth to what is pretty much satan spawn. His wife dies and his utopia falls apart under with the lopt sec running amok. By the time Celice fights him it seems quite clear he's pretty much suicidal himself over all the shit that's happened mostly because of his own actions and unfortunate heritage.

Yes, what I had in mind !

He is a true tragic figure.

[Renall]

While Alvis is tragic, one must remember that he was largely motivated to bring himself to the top by any means necessary. His regret at having to screw over his best friend is less that he does it and more that it happened to shake out that way. If he actually trusted Manfroy then he was either hopelessly naive (which doesn't seem like him) or fantastically arrogant (which certainly does). In either case, it's more the classical "undone by his own hubris" tragedy.

[DarthMikey]

Even the people that got off well compared to the others still had it pretty bad. Fin spent most of his life traipsing around the continent completely subservient to another person (whether that be Cuan or Leaf), Lachesis ran here there and everywhere as well completely aware that she had left her son behind, Brigid left her friends and family behind for over a decade more or less against her will (regardless of whether she was aware of that fact for most of that time), and Ardan never lost that weight.

So. Yeah. FE4. Clinical depression in a cartridge.

[SgtSmilies]

Fin spent most of his life traipsing around the continent completely subservient to another person (whether that be Cuan or Leaf)

Yeah, but Fin liked tagging along with Cuan, and he got a daughter and the king of New Thracia as his pal out of the whole ordeal at least.

Lachesis' disappearance was probably the worst thing that happened to Fin.

[Original Alear]

Yeah, but Fin liked tagging along with Cuan, and he got a daughter and the king of New Thracia as his pal out of the whole ordeal at least.

Lachesis' disappearance was probably the worst thing that happened to Fin.

Or maybe Cuan and Ethlin's death and the kidnapping of Altenna, or the conquest of his home, Lenster.

While Alvis is tragic, one must remember that he was largely motivated to bring himself to the top by any means necessary. His regret at having to screw over his best friend is less that he does it and more that it happened to shake out that way. If he actually trusted Manfroy then he was either hopelessly naive (which doesn't seem like him) or fantastically arrogant (which certainly does). In either case, it's more the classical "undone by his own hubris" tragedy.

What do you mean about Alvis having to screw over his best friend? Did he have something to do with the assassination of Kurt or something? I certainly don't think that Sigurd was likely his best friend.

Certainly, in the Final Fantasy Tactics story, I think that Delita and Ramza may have some sort of relation to Sigurd and Alvis, though there also could be a LUCT thing going on (did not play that game) and other stuff.

I guess there is Azel...I don't know if he had a special fate at Barhara, or how Alvis felt about him, but Alvis seemed to want to keep him at a distance.

Additionally, Aida might have been his truest friend as well as his lover, so I suppose that it seems like her death relating to protecting Cyas might be seen as Alvis screwing her over.

[Rehab]

I'm not sure if Azel was who SgtSmiles meant, but I may have heard/it's my interpretation that instead of having Alvis killed with the rest of Sigurd's army, Alvis had him confined to a single palace as long as he could afterwards. I assume part of the reason Alvis told Azel not to leave was to avoid having him mixed up with Sigurd when it inevitably came time to take care of him.

[Renall]

Certainly, in the Final Fantasy Tactics story, I think that Delita and Ramza may have some sort of relation to Sigurd and Alvis, though there also could be a LUCT thing going on (did not play

Ramza and Delita are actually an apt comparison in the opposite direction. Delita didn't want to hurt Ramza, and stated he wouldn't as long as Ramza didn't get in his way. Ultimately Ramza didn't, so Delita didn't have to kill him. Steal his credit yes, kill him no.

Sigurd got in Alvis's way. There was really no way for him to resolve the civil war without letting Sigurd kill the other conspirators then killing him as a "traitor." I imagine if he could've gone about it a different way he would have, but he couldn't possibly allow Sigurd to live.

[Original Alear]

I'm not sure if Azel was who SgtSmiles meant, but I may have heard/it's my interpretation that instead of having Alvis killed with the rest of Sigurd's army, Alvis had him confined to a single palace as long as he could afterwards. I assume part of the reason Alvis told Azel not to leave was to avoid having him mixed up with Sigurd when it inevitably came time to take care of him.

I read a fanfic a while ago (something eventually lead me to believe bus wrote it? it was on len) where Azel pretty much "forces" Alvis to kill him by refusing to back down, and gets roasted by fala flame personally, and the reason for this has something to do with a sort of weird pyromania, inadequacy for not being a fala major, etc.

OK I found it

http://www.dreethal....allingsnow.html

I would say it has no basis but I think that in the Osawa manga, Azel has some kind of preternatural awareness and fear of fala flame (which he experiences when Alvis roasts some verdane bandits in the prologue ch on the way to giving sig the silver sword). So I haven't read further, perhaps someone can confirm if something like this happens, or something like what you said happens, etc.

Ramza and Delita are actually an apt comparison in the opposite direction. Delita didn't want to hurt Ramza, and stated he wouldn't as long as Ramza didn't get in his way. Ultimately Ramza didn't, so Delita didn't have to kill him. Steal his credit yes, kill him no.

Sigurd got in Alvis's way. There was really no way for him to resolve the civil war without letting Sigurd kill the other conspirators then killing him as a "traitor." I imagine if he could've gone about it a different way he would have, but he couldn't possibly allow Sigurd to live.

Ah, I agree for the most part. I will point out that Delita does (IIRC) express (verbally) a hatred or wish to kill Ramza right at fort zeakden, either when teta is shot or he confirms she's dead afterwards, but I do think that was mellowed over time and a feeling of friendship returns. So, I was mostly pointing out the gap between the two kinds, since (in the absence of LUCT) I believe the similarities between FFT and FE4 suggest a rather direct relationship of ideas (FFT in many ways being an inversion - Delita is if anything a bit more like the "sad life" Levin we've been discussing here in ending scene of FFT).

I do agree I imagine Alvis might have avoided killing Sigurd, but I would not discount the possibility - and perhaps even likelihood - that Alvis would have considered knocking him off in a scenario lacking Diadora. In general, he does not seem to have many qualms about killing off his fellow nobles, even though they share the holy blood heritage he claims so proudly for himself - I'm sure at least once or twice he pridefully points out to manfloy that he's a descendant of crusaders fala and maira. Additionally, I was kinda hoping you would say if Sigurd is who you meant by "best" friend??? I don't want to quibble too much over the word best though...it's just that I'd also point out that in general, Alvis might not care for Sigurd very much. Don't think he thinks of him as a friend at all.

Some quotes from the game script on SF mainsite and a bit of commentary.

CH 1:

Alvis:

His Majesty wants me to check on things... The savages sure aren't going down easy.

Sheesh...

Sigurd, you don't impress me much.

(I checked up the Osawa section of this, and while I'm not bothering to transcribe the translation, it more or less comes across to me as a bit more of a concerned rival dismissing Sigurd's competence in the midst of easily toasting a bunch of Verdane bandits to ash.)

In CH 3:

Langobalt:

Relay this to the troops. Sigurd and his band of rebels are to be apprehended.

They along with Vylon killed Prince Kurth in an attempt to take over the monarchy.

Those are direct orders from His Majesty. Show no mercy to these traitors of the kingdom!

Leptor:

Heh heh heh! Langobalt, you are a cunning one.

First he kills the prince... just about kills Vylon too for putting up a fight. He's got some gall!

Alvis sure took advantage of his cosy relationship with the king. He sure spun a good one.

And to think he spearheaded our entire mission and managed to put the entire blame on the Chalphys.

Hmm... Well, as long I take control of the throne.

Anyone who gets in the way we'll simply do away with.

Obviously Alvis is manipulating Lept and Lang as well as the Chalphys, but if he has taken a fairly open role in favoring one against the other, he pretty much "must" wipe them all out in order to look even remotely clean (if that's really a concern at this point).

Remember this is in CH 3, and it's pretty unlikely all these mechanations took place after Manfroy brought Diadora to Alvis (who, IIRC, knew nothing of her existence prior).

And in CH5

Azmur:

Lord Alvis, is it true that Sigurd's party is making an advance in Barhara's direction?

Alvis:

Yes, but there is no need for alarm.

Lord Langobalt's army has already reached Lubeck. Subjugation of the insurgents should be forthcoming.

Azmur:

Yes. Well, I'm not so sure I buy all this.

Lord Vylon assassinating Kurth, and Sigurd causing all this ruckus... I don't know.

Alvis:

Your Majesty. Please, I'll explain once more.

Lord Vylon assassinated the prince with the help of Lord Ring of Jungby.

Duke Leptor and Duke Langobalt both witnessed the entire horrible spectacle!

The prince learned of their plot to usurp the throne, and that cost him his life.

Sir Sigurd is also without a doubt involved in the conspiracy.

Why else would he harbour the prince of a hostile country? Isaac no less.

These are clearly acts of treason against the kingdom.

The late Prince Kurth is also now a father-in-law to me... And for my beloved princess, Diadora, I must put an end to Sigurd's path of destruction!

If Lord Langobalt cannot successfully subdue the rebels, Velthomer's fire knights, the Roten Ritter, will stop Sigurd's rebel army in their tracks!

As long as Alvis has a care for either the appearance or substance of loyalty to Azmur, he must kill Sigurd, as long as he has a care for the appearance or substance of loyalty to Diadora, he must kill Sigurd, incidentally he will be in an odd romantic entanglement if Diadora recalls Sigurd at this point, and he doesn't seem to mind the idea of screwing someone who's been brainwashed. If he doesn't mind taking advantage of a nice girl because she happens to be the heir to the throne (except he's married her), I bet he'd be eager to extend a plot for power to knocking off a rival who's been tremendously successful in the field and rules one of the duchies of Grandbell. Moreover, we have little evidence that they have much of a personal relationship, like the one that seemed to exist between Kurt and Vylon (and maybe Ring or even Claude) or Langobalt and Reptor. It's at least possible he could have brokered a piece between the Chalphy and Tordo factions, and had enough influence over the throne to actually influence such an arrangement with whatever power Velthomer and Barhara represent, but he has no desire to.

(I suppose maybe since Reptor and Langobalt have been in the field on a large-scale campaign and killed Kurt, Barhara's power is reduced).

I personally like Alvis and think he's a compelling character, but I think it's a mistake to say he doesn't enjoy power, and exercising it to end the lives of threats, at least in gen I. The question I know nothing about is whether Alvis had any knowledge or involvement with the death of Kurt or the incursion into Isaac in the first place. It is possible I missed something though.

As for whether his life is sad, I question this to some extent. On the personal scale, like I said, he seems to enjoy the struggle for power - but maybe this is just a play put on for Reptor and Langobalt (and incidentally Manfroy). His younger portrait does seem to have a prideful smirk that Julius "inherits," but maybe that is just how he would look in most of the conversations we see him having. The older portrait seems to express the regret over insufficient power or strength and utter failure in recognition of his heir and legacy that we presume would bring sadness. However, was the Grandbell occupation of other countries ever particularly benign? Even before julius got the lopt tome, it seems like Alvis was not very competent at establishing a decent occupation...not sure about how grandbell's interior was doing pre child-hunt.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Mouse

[Jotari]

As for whether his life is sad, I question this to some extent. On the personal scale, like I said, he seems to enjoy the struggle for power - but maybe this is just a play put on for Reptor and Langobalt (and incidentally Manfroy). His younger portrait does seem to have a prideful smirk that Julius "inherits," but maybe that is just how he would look in most of the conversations we see him having. The older portrait seems to express the regret over insufficient power or strength and utter failure in recognition of his heir and legacy that we presume would bring sadness. However, was the Grandbell occupation of other countries ever particularly benign? Even before julius got the lopt tome, it seems like Alvis was not very competent at establishing a decent occupation...not sure about how grandbell's interior was doing pre child-hunt.

Didn't the game say there was an era of peace from when Alvis took the throne right up until the point Julius started going all evil demon spawn on everyone?

[Mekkah]

According to this, Lachesis survives, at least in one version of the story.

Nanna (0)

The pregnant Lachesis (19) entrusted Delmud to Oifey and returned to her parent's home in North Thracia to protect Eltshan's wife and son. She received a cold welcome from Eltshan's wife (who despised Sigurd and Lachesis) and so left the Demon Blade Mistolteen in her hands, before leaving. Afterwards, the Empire's eyes were concentrated at Tirnanogue, so Lachesis instead escaped to Fin's location. She gave birth to Nanna in the following year and raised her together with Fin. When Nanna was 8 years old, Lachesis wished to reunite with Delmud at Tirnanogue. Despite Fin's strong warning, Lachesis made her decision and afterwards there was no news of her.

Later, Agustria was conquered and the prison camp at Silvail was liberated. Many children were held here, by order of the Loputo Sect, but they were cared for by a woman who they adored like their own mother (she had also been taken prisoner by the empire). As the commander of Agustria's liberation army, Delmud reunited with his mother here. Lachesis briefly noticed it at a glance, perhaps he reminded her of Beowolf? Afterwards, Lachesis also happily reunited with Nanna and Aless.

[Sartek]

All mothers were supposed to survive in at least one of their pairing.

[Original Alear]

Didn't the game say there was an era of peace from when Alvis took the throne right up until the point Julius started going all evil demon spawn on everyone?

The game narrative in CH 6 opening is pretty abrupt in the transition.

The intense battle over control of the capitol sent most of the powerful lords to their grave.

Only Lord Alvis' plan went without a hitch as he successfully gained full control of the kingdom.

After overthrowing the two opposing kingdoms, Silesia and Lenster, Lord Alvis unified the continent.

And with the overwhelming support of the people, he became the first emperor of the Grandbell Empire.

...Seventeen years since the Battle of Barhara.

The people who once enthusiastically welcomed Emperor Alvis were now experiencing extreme hardship under his oppresive rule.

And in the surrounding nations which fell under the empire's rule, the people were forced to live in slavery like conditions.

And Levin (who as always likes being a bit of a messer) says:

Levin:

15 years have passed since Lord Alvis unified the continent. The early days of the empire weren't actually all that bad.

Initially, Emperor Alvis applied constitutional law to govern the people.

It was a bit constraining, but it was a peaceful time in Judgral's history.

But several years back the emperor did a complete about-face. He became very rigid with his rule and adopted oppressive governing tactics.

Now the ominous Loputo Sect is back, and their influence has spread across the land.

Sacrificial rituals have also reappeared. Children all over are being rounded up for the resurrection of the Loputian lord.

And anyone who attempts to rise up is either enslaved or executed...

It's obvious now that they're attempting to restore the Loputo Empire.

In this vein, it seems simplest and best to assume Julius was the main cause. But I'm hesitant to let Alvis off the hook. I don't really feel like reiterating the earlier points, but being as he (see the beginning of the first narrative) pretty much stood by idly as nearly every one of his peers were killed and then consolidated power solely under himself, it's really no surprise that the lopt cult - which it's been said here had him blackmailed - managed to turn things against him.

Since the advent of the lopt tome seemed to have involved him killing Diadora (and Alvis probably thought he killed Julia as well) that pretty much leaves Alvis no hope for a narga heir unless he and Celice can have babies.

[bobflac]

Except Alvis didn't have Narga blood at all. Only Celice's children would have Narga blood in the event that Julia died, so Celice would have to have a boy and a girl, have them grow to puberty, and then have them mate and have a child and hope that Narga instead of Baldo is dominant, then have that child grow to be old enough to take on Julius, and all this while hiding like crazy to not die.

Good thing Julia's around.

Or, you know, we could kill him with Charisma'd Celice anyway, like we normally do.