Zelda Wii U

[Anacybele]

That's true, but I really would like to see a home console Four Sword game again like FSA was.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Anacybele

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Wind Waker: I liked the game but didn't care for the sailing. If they could speed up this tedious task, that would be grand.

New Zelda: Non-linear Zelda intrigues me (assuming of course the "non-linear" talk of it is not the same as the original's where seasoned players could play it in a somewhat non-linear manner). If not for the items often being a core element in a dungeon's completion, this would be rather similar to Seiken Densetsu 3, specially with co-op multiplayer as an element. What will they do about the items I wonder...

Edited January 24, 2013 by Sirius

[CinderSkye]

That's easy. Design dungeons in multiple ways so they're completed differently with and without certain key items. As an example, a bridge might break later on, requiring a hookshot or clawshot to get over after you've completed the dungeon that gives you that treasure - but if you cross that bridge before the clawshot, the bridge might be only partially broken, and you'd be able to leap between the gaps. The instanced nature of Zelda dungeons makes this an easy task.

Dungeons are designed centrally around their own treasure, and previous treasures tend to be used in relatively minor ways that are easy to get around. The biggest exception I can think of is Majora's Mask.

Edited January 24, 2013 by CinderSkye

[ZemZem]

Hahaha. Wind Waker hate is hilarious.

I love the game, as it is my favorite of all time, and I'm ENTHRALLED to see it being remade. I was expecting MM, but TWW being picked over it is even better. The only thing they need to add to the game are the three dungeons that were scrapped, as well as the items, enemies, gimmicks, etc. that were most likely scrapped as well. Then the game is pretty much even more perfect.

[CinderSkye]

I'd like WW 5x more as a game if it used the individual combat controls from TP rather than combining them all into the wonder-button of Parry. I think it's one of Nintendo's most amazing games as an experience, I just felt it was too short and too easy.

[Komeiji Koishi]

Let's see, WW was one of the first games I got for the GCN, and therefore one of the first games I remember playing (story has it that my first game ever was Super Mario 64), and it was pretty freaking fun... until I got to the Forsaken Fortress, and I suddenly had no bloody clue about what to do (turns out I wasn't good at stealth stuff back then, just imagine what would have happened if I played MGS...). After... getting help clearing it, the rest came by naturally.

So yeah, this gets me hyped because it's a remake of one of my childhood games. I'd like to see if anything is added (or put back in) to the game, so it can be a fresh twist on a nostalgiac game.

I have to replay WW now...

[Knight]

I actually liked Wind Waker's combat system more than Twilight Princess's, cause really, in TP all I needed to do was back slice and all my problems were solved. Skyward Sword has my favourite combat system, but I wouldn't mind if they went back to the roots as long as some of the physics are improved.

[Anouleth]

I was disappointed when it was announced. I enjoyed Wind Waker. But it's definitely one of the weakest Zelda titles, and embodies a lot that is wrong about Zelda. In comparison to the potential that a remake of Majora's Mask, LTTP, or hell, even Legend of Zelda 1 and 2 would have, a remake of Wind Waker is just a waste of everyone's time. But then again, Aonuma is never going to approve a remake of LoZ 1 and 2 because he didn't work on them (or even enjoy playing them).

I'm disappointed that we're going to see the return of sailing. It sucked in Wind Waker. It sucked in Phantom Hourglass. It sucked in Spirit Tracks. Fuck vehicles.

I'm disappointed we're going to get the cutesy cel-shaded anime style instead of the cool style we saw in the Wii U trailer. I like Kirby, but not every game has to be "cutesy" and "quirky" and "japanese-y".

I'm disappointed that we're going to see the return of fucking stealth sections.

I'm disappointed that Nintendo are trying to "make it work" again. It didn't work the first time on the Gamecube. It's not going to work now on the Wii U. The Wii U is not going to turn out better than the Gamecube if you give it the same game library, only with HD graphics. It's funny because Aonuma says “It is time to change the Zelda formula because what we have doesn’t work.” One might wonder why he's going to remake Wind Waker then.

And it's clear what direction Aonuma wants to take this in. Ocarina of Time remake was just a sop to the fans. We are never going to see another Zelda in the style of Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time, or Zelda 1 and 2. It is always going to be cel-shaded and cutesy from now on.

That's easy. Design dungeons in multiple ways so they're completed differently with and without certain key items. As an example, a bridge might break later on, requiring a hookshot or clawshot to get over after you've completed the dungeon that gives you that treasure - but if you cross that bridge before the clawshot, the bridge might be only partially broken, and you'd be able to leap between the gaps. The instanced nature of Zelda dungeons makes this an easy task.

Dungeons are designed centrally around their own treasure, and previous treasures tend to be used in relatively minor ways that are easy to get around. The biggest exception I can think of is Majora's Mask.

These are the children of Aonuma-style Zelda. What you forget is that once upon a time, treasures weren't required to beat dungeons. Link to the Past had a large number of optional treasures, such as the Ice Rod, the Red and Blue Mail, the Magic Boomerang and the Golden Sword. It's only since Aonuma started working on Zelda that items you found in dungeons turned into items that were necessary to solve "puzzles".

As for linearity, both Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time had elements of non-linearity. Link to the Past was non-linear in the Dark World, and Ocarina of Time was also non-linear in some respects after you got the Master Sword. So let's not pretend like this is anything "new" from Zelda, it only seems new because you're used to modern, Aonuma-designed Zeldas, which are all perfectly linear, even when there's no reason for them to be linear (is there any reason why you have to do the Temple of Time, City in the Sky, or Snowpeak Ruins in order? Or for that matter, Earth Temple and Wind Temple in Wind Waker?)

[CinderSkye]

I'm 26. I've been playing Zelda since the NES. You're making this random lamentation about new school gamers, and I'm as old school as anyone who's started on any post-crash console, thanks very much. Zelda had made the move towards the Dungeons' Treasures being increasingly necessary to completing a given dungeon or access a given area prior to Aonuma ever being involved, as is extremely clear in both your vaunted A Link to the Past and Link's Awakening. Or did I ... not need the flippers, roc's feather, power bracelet...?

Also, calling Ocarina of Time non-linear in some respects is weak. You have to actively resist the game's breadcrumbs and boulders such that there are only two points in the game where people even infrequently tackle the dungeons in any order beside the well-known path. By that notion, even Pokemon Red and Blue is less linear; it is quite easy to accidentally skip or shuffle Silph Co., Lt. Surge, Erika, Koga, Sabrina, Blaine and tackle them in a different order than prescribed.

There's a difference between a game simply having a linear design, and a game lacking the option to break that line if you really want. Zelda may have started with a truly non-linear design, but the linear design was firmly entrenched early in the series as they increased the amount of narrative in it, as well as the technology. The downside to making an item like the hookshot, for example, is that part of its essential design is its ability to carry you to previously inaccessible places. There are ways they can make the content considerably more open-world and exploration-based without making gated content that encourages a specific level progression, and without getting rid of items like the Hookshot or Cane of Somaria or the Deku Leaf, and without dynamically changing content as I suggested earlier.

But doing that generally would require rethinking the entire notion of splitting the world up into formulaic levels which near-uniformly incorporate the Compass, Dungeon Map, Boss Key, Big Treasure, Mid-Boss, Boss, MacGuffin elements. Smaller dungeons, outdoor areas, larger dungeons, mix it up and go heavier on the exploration. Some of these have been with the series from the beginning and the rest of these have become so central to the series ever since their first involvement to ALttP that I don't see those going away. There'd be a revolt.

Edited January 24, 2013 by CinderSkye

[Samias]

If I recall correctly there is nothing stopping the player from doing the Wind Temple before the Earth Temple. Your get the Fire and Ice arrows at the same time, can complete Fire and Ice Islands at the same time and get the two dungeon access items at the same time, by this point you have free sailing, and neither dungeon requires the item from the other dungeon. The game mentions both dungeons at the same time, but the Earth Temple is easier.

LttP definitely has aspects of use item from dungeon to clear the dungeon. Yes, there were optional fun items, but Ocarina of Time has the optional Giant's Knife, Biggoron Sword, Ice Arrows, Magic Beans, all sorts of masks, and Farore's Wind and Nayru's Love. Wind Waker has optional magic armor and a new game+ to extend the progress of the optional figurine collecting side quest. To say LttP is divorced from the formula is wrong. It actually started the formula, making the game linear at the beginning to orient the player.

Also stealth sections were in OoT, MM, and Minish Cap. In fact, OoT had two. They aren't as involved as Wind Waker, but they are there and they are required. I would rather do Forsaken Fortress than MM's Pirate Fortress.

[CinderSkye]

IIRC, the sage you're supposed to protect for Wind won't show up until after you do Earth. Or vice-versa. Or osmethne. I have never replayed Wind Waker.

[Jedi]

Whoa whoa.. When did the Zelda fanbase become the Sonic one in being unreasonable pricks with their opinions?

Wind Waker is a spectacular game, I enjoyed every moment of it until the Triforce Shard quest and even then the rest of the game was so great the momentum carried me through it. It has one of the best Zelda's in the series who is actually willing to help Link fight an entire fight and she develops over the course of the game, Ganon is a delightful final fight for once instead of being a cake walk.

The Sailing had an atmosphere, you were exploring like the explorers of old! And that music my god the music.. So great.

Only reason I could see people hating Wind Waker is that they are still on the old "It's Cel-Shaded" Bs that everyone has spouted since it originally came out. All I see here is people trying to blame their hate on something else for the most part but I know deep down its just the Cel-Shaded Look just admit it, its too "Kiddy" for you, when it has one of the darker Zelda plots, sure there are more comedic moments [thanks to the brilliant expressions by Toon Link]

Going to the point of remaking other things I'm shocked to see someone would want Zelda 1 remade when you are given absolutely no hints no clues no nothing and you have to search every inch with Bombs for stuff. It's like Millons Secret Castle but since its Nintendo I guess that makes the game good, Zelda 1 is the weakest Zelda game Absolutely No Contest, Least games like Metroid encourage you to search for items and they are in much more obvious locations, Zelda 1 is nearly impossible without foreknowledge or a guide. Sure it started this franchise but it has not aged well at all

Oh yes I know what your going to say to me next, "Wind Waker didn't give hints!" I direct you to the treasure maps

Also I find it funny how you lot bash the sailing yet you praise Skyward Sword, the flying looked like it had nothing to it other then "Boring Flight to get to Location" with no landmarks or islands to visit, or possible treasure to find. I see a bit of hypocrisy

[Samias]

Actually I don't think anyone praised flying in Skyward Sword, which had sluggish controls that were a one-way ticket to wrist pain. Part of the sailing problem was that collecting enough rupees to translate Triforce charts took a lot of time that ate away at the game's momentum, and the optional destinations were merely specks of land with very little to do. The game would probably have been better with fewer, but significantly larger islands.

[Anouleth]

I'm 26. I've been playing Zelda since the NES. You're making this random lamentation about new school gamers, and I'm as old school as anyone who's started on any post-crash console, thanks very much.

Except that lots of people do talk about the Zelda "formula", while forgetting that many elements of the "formula" were not in the original.

Zelda had made the move towards the Dungeons' Treasures being increasingly necessary to completing a given dungeon or access a given area prior to Aonuma ever being involved, as is extremely clear in both your vaunted A Link to the Past and Link's Awakening. Or did I ... not need the flippers, roc's feather, power bracelet...?

It's true for Link's Awakening, but not for Link to the Past.

Also, calling Ocarina of Time non-linear in some respects is weak. You have to actively resist the game's breadcrumbs and boulders such that there are only two points in the game where people even infrequently tackle the dungeons in any order beside the well-known path. By that notion, even Pokemon Red and Blue is less linear; it is quite easy to accidentally skip or shuffle Silph Co., Lt. Surge, Erika, Koga, Sabrina, Blaine and tackle them in a different order than prescribed.

It is less linear. In fact, I rather wish pokemon would be less linear in terms of going to new areas. Part of pokemon's success is that it is extremely non-linear in other respects. In fact, at the very start of the game, you are already faced with a choice, between three different pokemon! And there are many different ways to play the game, depending on what pokemon you want to use. Even with the same pokemon, there are many choices wrt what moves to give them. Could you imagine that kind of choice in Zelda? Nowadays, Zelda does not even let you walk where you like.

There's a difference between a game simply having a linear design, and a game lacking the option to break that line if you really want. Zelda may have started with a truly non-linear design, but the linear design was firmly entrenched early in the series as they increased the amount of narrative in it, as well as the technology.

And that's why there should be less narrative in Zelda. The original Zelda had no narrative.

But doing that generally would require rethinking the entire notion of splitting the world up into formulaic levels which near-uniformly incorporate the Compass, Dungeon Map, Boss Key, Big Treasure, Mid-Boss, Boss, MacGuffin elements. Smaller dungeons, outdoor areas, larger dungeons, mix it up and go heavier on the exploration. Some of these have been with the series from the beginning and the rest of these have become so central to the series ever since their first involvement to ALttP that I don't see those going away. There'd be a revolt.

A revolt of people trying to buy it, perhaps. Nintendo has failed to reproduce the success of the early Zelda titles, even with remakes. Maybe it's because things changed? Maybe it's because Zelda now focuses on puzzles rather than fighting monsters? Maybe because every Zelda title is cutesy cel-shaded Wind Waker style? Maybe because there are more bullshit NPCs like Tingle? Maybe it's because Zelda went from being nonlinear to being aggressively linear?

[Lord Raven]

Actually I don't think anyone praised flying in Skyward Sword, which had sluggish controls that were a one-way ticket to wrist pain. Part of the sailing problem was that collecting enough rupees to translate Triforce charts took a lot of time that ate away at the game's momentum, and the optional destinations were merely specks of land with very little to do. The game would probably have been better with fewer, but significantly larger islands.

It actually wasn't that bad at all.

[Anouleth]

Whoa whoa.. When did the Zelda fanbase become the Sonic one in being unreasonable pricks with their opinions?

Wind Waker is a spectacular game, I enjoyed every moment of it until the Triforce Shard quest and even then the rest of the game was so great the momentum carried me through it. It has one of the best Zelda's in the series who is actually willing to help Link fight an entire fight and she develops over the course of the game, Ganon is a delightful final fight for once instead of being a cake walk.

The Sailing had an atmosphere, you were exploring like the explorers of old! And that music my god the music.. So great.

Only reason I could see people hating Wind Waker is that they are still on the old "It's Cel-Shaded" Bs that everyone has spouted since it originally came out. All I see here is people trying to blame their hate on something else for the most part but I know deep down its just the Cel-Shaded Look just admit it, its too "Kiddy" for you, when it has one of the darker Zelda plots, sure there are more comedic moments [thanks to the brilliant expressions by Toon Link]

Legend of Zelda isn't meant to be a comedy, or about "character development". Nor is it very dark. In Link to the Past, you see the Dark World, which is the world destroyed by Ganon. In Ocarina of Time, it is the future which is destroyed by Ganon. Hyrule Town is turned into a destroyed town infested with undead. The villages you saw when you were a child are all abandoned. When you return to Kokiri Forest, there are now monsters and everyone hides indoors. Goron Mountain is abandoned. And Zora's Domain is completely frozen. And then there's the Spirit Temple and the Bottom of the Well.

Why does Link have to have wacky facial expressions? Why not put in a fucking laugh track while we're at it.

Going to the point of remaking other things I'm shocked to see someone would want Zelda 1 remade when you are given absolutely no hints no clues no nothing and you have to search every inch with Bombs for stuff. It's like Millons Secret Castle but since its Nintendo I guess that makes the game good, Zelda 1 is the weakest Zelda game Absolutely No Contest, Least games like Metroid encourage you to search for items and they are in much more obvious locations, Zelda 1 is nearly impossible without foreknowledge or a guide. Sure it started this franchise but it has not aged well at all

Zelda 1 had genuine secrets. What do you want, Navi to follow you around, hold your hand and point out everything? Isn't the whole point of secrets is that they're not supposed to be obvious?

[Party Moth]

Whoa whoa.. When did the Zelda fanbase become the Sonic one in being unreasonable pricks with their opinions?

When Wind Waker came out, mostly. People have had their own opinions on where the franchise should be going, and it's truly amazing how many different potential ideas can stem from fans.

A large part of it is the series' massive shifts in gameplay and concepts over the course of 25 years. From Zelda I to Skyward Sword, a LOT has changed, even if core ideas still persists (dungeons for example). It's honestly amazing how quickly the fanbase can degenerate to "the series is ruined" with every new announcement of a game.

especially in comparison to FE where everyone instead asks "will it come out worldwide??"

Also, to Anouleth:

Legend of Zelda isn't meant to be a comedy, or about "character development". Nor is it very dark.

What is the "Legend of Zelda" then? Because I can think of at least three different answers to what it could be or what it should be depending on what you want from the series.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Duels at Dawn

[Momentai~]

So, the latest Nintendo direct told us of two Zelda games coming for the Wii U. A brand new, original title, and a remake of The Wind Waker.

:D

Now, as a hater of TWW

D:

I got into TLoZ series pretty late, considering WW was my official introduction to the Zelda series. I've only played two Zelda games to completion (finished WW and TP, still need to get around to finishing MM, OoT, and Spirit tracksmaybenotthatgameisboring). I eventually plan on getting Skyward Sword too.

I'm glad to hear WW is being remade and I'm even more glad to hear about the new Zelda game. I'll add those things to my list of reasons to get the Wii U. I'm still not gonna buy it until I hear about a release date for the newest smash bros though! xP

[CinderSkye]

Except that lots of people do talk about the Zelda "formula", while forgetting that many elements of the "formula" were not in the original.

It's true for Link's Awakening, but not for Link to the Past.

It is less linear. In fact, I rather wish pokemon would be less linear in terms of going to new areas. Part of pokemon's success is that it is extremely non-linear in other respects. In fact, at the very start of the game, you are already faced with a choice, between three different pokemon! And there are many different ways to play the game, depending on what pokemon you want to use. Even with the same pokemon, there are many choices wrt what moves to give them. Could you imagine that kind of choice in Zelda? Nowadays, Zelda does not even let you walk where you like.

And that's why there should be less narrative in Zelda. The original Zelda had no narrative.

A revolt of people trying to buy it, perhaps. Nintendo has failed to reproduce the success of the early Zelda titles, even with remakes. Maybe it's because things changed? Maybe it's because Zelda now focuses on puzzles rather than fighting monsters? Maybe because every Zelda title is cutesy cel-shaded Wind Waker style? Maybe because there are more bullshit NPCs like Tingle? Maybe it's because Zelda went from being nonlinear to being aggressively linear?

http://www.vgchartz....edb/?name=Zelda

- Sales numbers seriously belie your argument.

- I would generally argue Zelda's gone to an increased focus on combat, not puzzles. The puzzles are essentially much simpler in return for added depth in how combat works. The "puzzles" are more "get item A, pass puzzle B immediately."

- Only five Zelda titles use Wind Waker's graphical style, and only two Zeldas are cel-shaded.

I would welcome more Zeldas in the vein of Majora's Mask, I would welcome more explore-y Zeldas (though the Elder Scrolls and some BioWare games establish you can do narrative and have room for exploration), I would welcome graphical style like used at the latest demo, but your arguments generally strike me as odd.

Edited January 24, 2013 by CinderSkye

[Anacybele]

For once, I agree with Lord Raven. I liked flying on Link's Loftwing in Skyward Sword. It was way more fun than boring sailing in TWW. The controls just took some getting the hang of. Same with the sword fighting. I also liked the train in Spirit Tracks. I don't remember enough of Phantom Hourglass sailing to form an opinion on that.

Also, I don't hate TWW's graphics or SS's graphics. I actually like the cel-shading. I hate TWW for different reasons. Also, why should the graphics matter so much anyway? Isn't it the gameplay that counts more? The story? The characters?

Another thing, Skyward Sword is my favorite Zelda. And I can see why the game is so linear. If you could go wherever you wanted from the beginning, I would've been totally stumped unless I used a guide. And I hate games that just throw you into a world and say "okay, here you go, bai!" Skyward Sword's overworld is really big. Possibly as big as TWW's. And TWW was kind of linear too. Yeah, you could go to any island you wanted after gaining use of King of Red Lions, but you could hardly do anything at any of them without going through the pearl dungeons first and such.

I'm not saying I want a game to be TOTALLY linear. Just have some linearity to it. Give me a clue or two to what I should do next, but let me figure out the rest.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Anacybele

[Ike-Mike]

A new Zelda game with the promise of going 'back to the roots', make the game non-linear and include multiplayer.

Sounds promising until you realize it's supervised by someone who died on the very first Octorok in the very first Zelda.

[Anacybele]

But Aonuma's favorite Zelda is ALttP. Which is not really linear. After the first Dark World dungeon, you could pretty much do the rest of the dungeons in almost any order you want.

[redturtle806]

Well fuck. I was hoping for a 3ds MM or LTTP remake. I don't plan on getting a wii u, because of how bad the wii was.

[Anouleth]

http://www.vgchartz....edb/?name=Zelda

- Sales numbers seriously belie your argument.

Really? That's only true if you compare apples to oranges. If we look at Japanese sales purely, the only Zelda games that broke 1 million copies were OoT, LttP, AoL, and the original. Japan also has almost no change in population over the past 30 years, unlike America. Now, it's true that AoL did not sell as well in America (so American gamers often dismiss it), but AoL came out in 1988, at the same time as the NES cartridge shortage. So it's not exactly fair to compare Adventure of Link to other titles that were not constrained by the supply of cartridges at the time. In addition, 15 years of population growth separate the NES Zeldas from the modern GC and Wii Zeldas. So the slightly higher sales of Wind Waker are only because the population of the USA increased by about 17%. Americans were also in general, wealthier in 2002 than in 1988, so they would have had more money to spend on consumer electronics. Indeed, growth has been observed in practically every area of video games over the 15 years from 1988 to 2002. That doesn't reflect that the games made in 2002 are better, but because people in the West are wealthier and more numerous.

If sales for Zelda were healthy, they would have increased in the 1990s and 2000s along with population growth, rather than stagnating. In Japan, where there was no population growth, sales declined. When there was economic trouble in the US, sales declined.

Europe is a bit of a different case. The NES did not sell nearly as well in Western Europe as in America, for whatever reason. It faced fiercer competition from the Master System. If you ignore European sales, the sales in America and Japan do not look very healthy. I don't understand completely what happened with European sales, but I doubt that it was because Wind Waker was anything special.

- I would generally argue Zelda's gone to an increased focus on combat, not puzzles. The puzzles are essentially much simpler in return for added depth in how combat works. The "puzzles" are more "get item A, pass puzzle B immediately."

- Only five Zelda titles use Wind Waker's graphical style, and only two Zeldas are cel-shaded.

Yeah: the most recent five, pretty much. Wind Waker, Minish Cap, Phantom Hourglass, a break for Twilight Princess, then back to Spirit Tracks and Skyward Sword. While it's true that technically only Wind Waker and Skyward Sword are cel-shaded, they all use a cartoony style, rather than the grittier style shown in earlier games.

I would welcome more Zeldas in the vein of Majora's Mask, I would welcome more explore-y Zeldas (though the Elder Scrolls and some BioWare games establish you can do narrative and have room for exploration), I would welcome graphical style like used at the latest demo, but your arguments generally strike me as odd.

I don't think Nintendo are capable of doing narrative. When they do, it's the corniest fucking shit. I saw the cutscenes in Other M. And from what I heard, Skyward Sword wasn't much better. Really, Link getting bullied in high school for being different? What the fuck is this shit? No, Nintendo shouldn't try it again.

[ZemZem]

I hate TWW for different reasons.

I may have missed it, but what exactly do you hate about TWW.