The Lunatic Club

[Redwall]

Yeah, I understood the argument, and I tried to address it in my earlier post (which assumed Chapter 2 since I think the Prologue can be done reliably with either +HP or +Def). What I was trying to get at was that the +Def can benefit across multiple turns: for example, if you get hit once during EP 1, use a Vulnerary during PP 2, then get hit twice during EP 3, you effectively save +6 HP, and the bonus Def continues accruing its effective-HP advantage, whereas the +HP only confers +5 HP regardless of how many hits/Vulneraries you take.

+HP asset is definitely better against Luna+ guys though.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Redwall

[Scarlet]

Okay, yeah, not worthless, just less useful in the Earlygame than +5 HP, then.

A HP Asset also has the benefit that your Avatar can be useful without having to have such a massive level lead in the first place, though. (Not that the Avatar being overleveled is a bad thing.)

[Redwall]

I pointed out that against enemies without Luna+, it's more valuable than +5 HP in Ch. 2, and the benefit only increases as that stage progresses.

[charlie_]

I ran +HP -Lck in my first Lunatic run and it was fine. It might not increase the cap but seriously if you're hitting 80HP you're probably fine already.

[Caitsith3394]

So I've been working on Lunatic+ mode and am currently stuck. :\

Apparently I picked the correct god to pray to in Chapter 2 because it wasn't nearly as hellish for me to get through than it was for other people.

However, Chapter 3 is murdering me.

If anyone could offer some helpful advice, I'd appreciate it.

I would like to think that someone can give me a lifesaving tip other than "reset until you get lucky with ability spawns," but thus far, I'm pretty sure that's all I can do.

Anyways, here's what I'm working with:

Avatar (Male)

I'm pretty sure he is +Def/-Skl, but I honestly don't remember.

His stats are:

HP: 29

Str: 14

Mag: 11

Skill: 7

Spd: 11

Lck: 13

Def: 13

Res: 11

As far as I'm aware, those stats are pretty nice. He has a C support with Frederick. He's level 14.

Fred is still level 1, so he has his level 1 stats.

I've only had 1 death so far (I sacrificed Virion in chapter 2 because I needed a distraction), but I'd like to limit my casualties to just him.

The problem I'm having mostly stems from the Archers.

After I reset god knows how many times to make the left side of the map have manageable abilities, I can't consistently deal with the right side. I've been doing the "hole up in the doorway and tank with MaMU and Fred" thing, but the archer that shoots over MaMU's head is frustrating. The only person who can hit him back in that position is Miriel who can take one hit (if the archer doesn't have Luna+), but her damage in retaliation is nothing special. If he has Pavise+ or Counter I'm put in a risky situation, and I haven't had to deal with a Luna+ one yet. I'm pretty sure Sully can take one hit from a Luna+ archer, but then that would force me to kill the archer immediately, which would probably take the combined effort of MaMU and Fred w/ Javelin which would be awful if a bunch of the rest of them spawned with counter because I wouldn't be able to use Fred to unequip MaMU and vice versa.

I have made it to the top half of the map once, but I only have 6 vulneraries to tank with (and that number is realistically less because I would have to clear the bottom without using any) and Healing with Lissa is too risky because an Archer will just shoot her. She can take 1 hit I'm pretty sure. Anyways, I basically ran out of resources to work with the one time I made it to the top and I tried the running in a circle thing, but it seemed like I wasn't really accomplishing anything and I messed up eventually.

SO IF TL;DR

Chapter 3 in Lunatic+ sucks.

Can someone give me some reliable ways to get rid of those stupid Archers?

Or do I seriously have to reset until all of the abilities go my way?

Also, if you need more info than what was given, I can give you a basic play-by-play if that helps.

[Da Bear]

How much Counter is on the right? A good way to kill counter is to rush up the corridor and kill the Knight (don't attract any other enemies) and then have Kellam!Fred tank the enemies unequipped while Miriel!Avatar snipes the enemies from behind him. Have Lissa heal your avatar if he gets hit and remember to bottle up the area in case of pass.

Oh, yeah and don't be afraid to have Fred kill an enemy if he can and he won't die on EP. the less damage you take the better.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Lonely Wallcrab

[Caitsith3394]

The number of them that spawn with counter is variable, of course, but a pretty consistent number is 2 at least.

I never thought to go ahead and open the door and kill the knight to give myself some more breathing room, but the right side advances pretty quick. do you think I would have time to pull that off consistently?

Edited August 13, 2013 by Caitsith3394

[Tables]

I think that for Lunatic, +DEF is a little better than +HP, but +HP is a seriously underrated option. I was one of the people suggesting it a long time ago, although not that vocally as perhaps Paper did. I'd say it's the second best option for Lunatic, and possibly even the best for Luna+ (but I don't know Luna+ well enough to say for certain). The initial boost is basically the same, although it's a litter worse when you factor in healing - 5 HP helps you more if you would be 2RKO'd, and you're not getting beyond 3RKO'd early on Lunatic anyway. But it also helps against those earlygame mages in the prologue.

The growth boost it gives is also awesome. +15% HP puts Tactician Avatar up to 105%, which is awesome, and you also get +5% to both DEF and RES - that's 5% less DEF than a +DEF asset in exchange for +15% HP which is pretty sweet (the luck growth difference might put you one more luck down early, but your luck should reach the point where most enemies have 0% crit anyway, so it's not that significant).

Caps wise it's only a little worse than +DEF. You lose 2 DEF cap in exchange for 1 STR & MAG. But really, caps are by far the least significant part of the modifiers, since you only reach caps near endgame anyway (assuming no grind - if you are grinding, it's pretty straightforward anyway).

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

IIRC HP, SPD, and DEF asset give the exact same durability during the early game?

I remember that without SPD asset MU will get doubled and One rounded by some early swordsman

[Interceptor]

I never thought to go ahead and open the door and kill the knight to give myself some more breathing room, but the right side advances pretty quick. do you think I would have time to pull that off consistently?

It's a little harder since Virion is dead (he's good for helping clear the LHS more quickly), but it's possible if you don't waste time. Unfortunately not only are you missing an attacker, but you also might not have enough DEF to tank a bunch of guys on the first Turn with Avatar.

Poke around in my write-up for Ch3 and see if you find anything you can use. Opening the door early and killing the Knight will give you a tighter choke, which will help you conserve healing items, so it's worth a shot.

[Caitsith3394]

I went in this past round with every intention of opening the door and killing the knight, but I messed up because avatar got the key, and I would need for someone else to get the key and open it for avatar if I want that to work. So that is still on the table.

It's a little harder since Virion is dead (he's good for helping clear the LHS more quickly), but it's possible if you don't waste time. Unfortunately not only are you missing an attacker, but you also might not have enough DEF to tank a bunch of guys on the first Turn with Avatar.

Poke around in my write-up for Ch3 and see if you find anything you can use. Opening the door early and killing the Knight will give you a tighter choke, which will help you conserve healing items, so it's worth a shot.

I have been following your playlog (that's how I got to chapter 3 in the first place), and it has helped a lot.

You're right my avatar struggles tanking on the first turn. He can tank it by himself (with Kellam support) as long as nothing on the left spawned with Luna+. And I'm now noticing that Virion would actually be kind of useful to have due to his weapon ignoring Pavise+.

It's so time consuming just getting a start I'm comfortable with considering I reset if anything on the LHS has Luna+ (Avatar will die), or if the spear guy has counter (Avatar will die), or if there is too much Aegis+ and Pavise+ (not being able to clear that side quickly endangers my scrub units), and the frustration of constantly resetting definitely doesn't help avoid making mistakes.

Ah, well. I'll beat it eventually. I suppose I just have to slow down and triple check my actions.

[1% critted]

Why +HP is good:

-Great Base HP for children

-Decent tanking capabilities

-AI manipulation(AI goes for low defense units, you can still tank because of your high HP)

-Improves frail classes

The cons:

-Can't tank as well as +Def

-It's crap in lategame, because before the end of Valm arc you will already reach 80/80

-Has average stats all around.

Still isn't as good as +Def,because in a fort you almost can't die.

[1% critted]

IIRC HP, SPD, and DEF asset give the exact same durability during the early game?

I remember that without SPD asset MU will get doubled and One rounded by some early swordsman

That SPD is irrelevant in early game,because a pair-up with anyone will solve it. Early swordsmen have 11 SPD, and mercs have 13 SPD(?). It's better if you can tank and not get doubled, than just not get doubled(but being able to double earlier).

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

MU x Lissa

Because I need to train Chrom as much as possible before benching MU >_>

[shadowofchaos]

MU x Lissa

Because I need to train Chrom as much as possible before benching MU >_>

My gosh I must be sleepy. I had to read that post again.

I saw "Chrom x Lissa".

[Da Bear]

MU x Lissa

Because I need to train Chrom as much as possible before benching MU >_>

My gosh I must be sleepy. I had to read that post again.

I saw "Chrom x Lissa".

Chrom could probably use the training.

[1% critted]

MU will get a point of speed before facing face2feic any myrmidons.

The first myrmidon is killed by Fred and the second by Chrom+Fred.

The rest are killed by ranged!MU.

Also in my "Ranked" run, skirmishes are free,but reeking boxes aren't, or there won't be enough experience for everyone.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I read that as feces to feces >_>

[1% critted]

FACE2FACE

MANFACE.

[XeKr]

I think the general point is that +Def is better as enemy density increases, which is very relevant to Avatar-centric clears of the early chapters (where she faces way more than 2 attacks and healing is limited). Which is really the easiest way to beat Lunatic. No Avatar will fight in Prologue well (alternatively, nearly all Avatars are about equal if using the water thingy), while +Def (iirc even when a bit below average) can fight decently and essentially solo stuff starting from C1. I remember trying that with +Hp Avatar once and dying. >_>

Among more fast paced clears, +Def and +Hp are probably about equal since Avatar is being babied until C5-6 or so. +Hp may even be better as helping against Mages does matter. Then again, a flimsier class Avatar (like Pegasus) needs as much Def as she can manage and Elixers/Concoctions are fairly limited early. I ran into some durability issues even with Wyvern Avatar in C5-C8. Some of that was definitely due to magic though. Versus +Spd or +Mag, they allow slightly faster snowballing at the cost of a harder time meeting certain stat benchmarks for bosses/lategame.

+Spd matters somewhat as slightly below average Spd will get Avatars doubled by Myrms and such in C1 and C2. But it’s not really a big deal if you know what you’re doing, as Frederick can tank just a bit more to deal with that. Plus, +Spd will start doubling significantly faster, adding a ton of offense (very useful when it's the Frederick show on one front and Avatar/Lon'qu/Chrom/etc are desperately trying to clean up a few enemies). I remember my first Lunatic run was +Spd and it was really fun b/c enemies were really scary, instead of just fodder for Avatar to facetank through. <_<

Edited August 13, 2013 by XeKr

[Caitsith3394]

Well, I beat Chapter 3 finally. (And Chapter 4).

I think the major mistake I made the first time I made it to the top half was that I wasn't in the correct position to face tank.

With a bit of luck, I got most of the map to spawn without Luna+ and it was simple!

[amadeuscho]

I just finished Lunatic +. I'm gonna do a Lunatic Run no DLC next.

[Dying Blaze]

I just finished Lunatic +. I'm gonna do a Lunatic Run no DLC next.

Good luck. I could barely get past it without grinding through the whole damn thing.

[Drgnquester]

after playing Lunatic mode so much I can't go back to Hard/Classic anymore. It's just too easy. Going through a Lunatic+ MU/Say'ri file. Chapter 16 has given me soooooooooooooooo many counter enemies D:

[Phoenix Wright]

i went from lunatic to normal so i could get to apo DLC/streetpass grinding as quickly as possible, but damn, the game is boring me at this point. it's like unless i put my healer in the heat of battle, no one will die.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Phoenix Wright