Fire Emblem Reskin

[Agro]

What is his right arm doing? It's kind of just sitting there limpwristed. I imagine after some time holding your arm like you have chicken wings would get very tiring...

[Kramy]

Maybe have the shaman hold a tome in that arm might solve that chicken-wing problem

[Klokinator]

Obviously he only raises his arm like that in battle. It's clearly his "war stance".

[Ren Ookami]

Hello,
I know this topic is old but I tested the tome holding and a mounted version of the Shaman.
The author seems innactive and do not answer (both here and on DeviantArt by private mail)
my question about if it's ok to use his sprites so, does anyone have the answer to this question:

When someone is inactive for more than a year, or retired from spriting, are his sprites complettly
lost for future use, or fall into public use ? And in the case of the sprites of this author, or this topic,
did he allowed or not the use of the current sprites ?

Thanks to anyone willing to answer, I am waiting an answer of the PMs for almost 6 months now...

[Duke of Dozel]

Personally, I'd say go for it, as long as you give credit.

[ghast]

it's not okay to use someone's sprite's without their permission, no matter how long they are inactive for.

[Book of Ereshkigal]

Skimming the topic, he did say it was okay to edit things.

of course feel free to edit,

He answered another person who asked. Though, of course, the reply is still from a while ago.

EDIT: Misread, he wants to use the sprites, so IDK. (He did let klok use them but you should still ask if he shows up and probably shouldn't use them otherwise)

Edited October 1, 2014 by L95

[Klokinator]

He seemed like the kind of guy who was interested in the good of the community. I don't think he would mind his sprites being edited or used. Though, to be sure, give credit or else I'll nab ya >:|

Edited October 2, 2014 by Klokinator

[Lenh]

I'd say no, the author's work stays the author's and doesn't magically go to public use, even if they fell out of communication.

It's a little iffy since metalflygon gave the OK to Klok and didn't say anything about other people using their sprite mods, but I don't think absence of denial is permission in absence.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Lenh

[Ren Ookami]

Of course, full credit is given to the author by both linking the topic and his DA username to link his gallery if I use them, it was implied so, sorry if it confused you. In case of edition and release of the new version, I apply the same, adding just a "edited by: Ren Ookami". Also, since the sheets are unsigned I'll correct that too while I edit, to clearly have on the sheets who is the original author.

No intend of using any sprites without at least giving credit, it would be unrespectfull of the author's work. I also considere that absence of reply is not a "permission given", that's why I waited six months between the ask to author, and ask to comunity. But it's "sad" to see good mods and bases falling into unused content when the comunity can improve and release a legit final version.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Ren Ookami

[Lenh]

[...] it's "sad" to see good mods and bases falling into unused content when the comunity can improve and release a legit final version.

Even with credit and the best of intentions, some people don't want their stuff taken possession of and/or 'improved' via copy/paste/paintover. It's safer just to respect it than go around playing Robin Hood of Spriters, imo.

If you're willing to make extensions to the animations, what's stopping you from just rebuilding the concept entirely? (Without copy-pasting metalflygon's bases?) That way you can still give credit for the idea, but the work you can claim as your own.

[Ren Ookami]

I had the same "problem" some times ago with a common consept what is the unmounted wyvern. If you start of the same base and achieve by yourself, even by chance (but not only since the base sheet will have the same placement of sprites if you downloaded the base from the same source, like FEplanet for exemple) the exact same sheet than someone else, what proof do you have than you made it since he made it before ? In the eye of some persons, none.

So the safer way is to play cards on table, and clearly says "it was started by someone before, I only done some editions. Take this link and compare the two versions to see how I did only a minor part of the work" instead of claiming a "manual copycat" later improved (or not, depending on the sheet/sprite), and crediting only for consepts someone who had the same amout of work than you, plus thinking of the said the said consepts in the case of improvments. Crediting for "a base" include both the graphical and conseptual credits, in my sense.

That is the reason, not playing robin hood or anything like that. I have plenty of personal editions to do and am on some projects, so I prefait to "improve" instead of "redo" not because of any difficulty, but because of the waiste of time it would be, especialy if the goal is to achieve the same sprites bases before going further, simple question of logic about ways of working on a subject. Also, if you look at my DA gallery (same username), I sometimes collab with pepole, and am currently working on a big sheet for two persons, so in a way my point of view about using a base and the use of time may be kinda different than your.

Also, aside of our talk there is a paradox I find interesting about most the spriter comunities:

What are we all doing spriting ? Exept for 100% custom ones, we are using Nintendo/other sprites bases without author consent because of "this or that" excuse, then claiming not the editions but the whole new versions as our own. We (or most of us) respect their work even when credit is not written, here it is almost the same, exept that we give credits to an author, even linking back for pepole to find him and of course use the sprites on non comercial purposes. Yet, pepole considere what sometimes are mostly recolors as brand new sprites (not here, but often the case with sonic style or pokemon trainers sprites), then claim 100% of it, not willing them to be used, yet don't using them even as base.

Personally, or should I say conserning my sprites, the only ones I have problem with pepole using them are those included in a project (before the game release) and when pepole don't give credits or with no linking back. We are on the internet and no need to lie to ourselves, most of the sprites what are not authorized to be used are on personal purpose, not released, or just heavy customed without credit given because the base is unknown of most pepole. The second problem is pepole who don't even sign their sheets and have plenty of usernames, that is the open door to stealing since most of thime themselves make hard to be contacted.

Spriting, like any graphical art is something serious, of course we can do it for fun, since only a few achieve to become professionals, but it is really paradoxal that wwhen someone do it "for fun" then leave, then someone else want to complete the work in a serious way, it is the serious person who is blamed. I'm not stealing or even claming the base as mine, the only work I claim on the shaman sprite for exemple, is this ridiculously short 10 seconds edition of adding a book.
I recieve often notes like "I liked your sprite, so I used it in my public project, can you send me the sheet now ?" then I see that no lik back or even credits are on it, just a cut image of one of my sprites on a "thumb" link or anything. So, is my behavior the bad one compared to these common pepole around ? I don't think so.

I just try to be the more professional I can even as amateur. I made an entire rework of FE8 class trees including new 3rd classes, in collab with more than 5 deviants for their bases, and including laguz, but there is 6 months I can't release it because I wait this mail, all this because of this shaman I decided to use as dark magic mounted new class branch to add balance with anima and light who both have mounted units on GBA era. Why I don't simply give up on this ? The look is diferent and good for a new branch, and I don't want to do a "manual copycat" even by creating something close to this base, because in my sense it stay a copycat, like when someone redo a famous painting and claim his version as an original just because he made it.

Sorry if the reply is a bit long, enlish not being my native language (and my way of writing in general) makes writing things short a bit hard. Your point of view about redoing a sprite and crediting the consepts is interesting, but if it was a simple matter of it, there is six months the complette tree would be released over DA.

[Mercenary Lord]

I had the same "problem" some times ago with a common consept what is the unmounted wyvern.

Oh right, this.

Looks, it's always a better idea to wait and see. Some people (like myself) can become very irked when they find their work being edited and modified without their permission. Some things that I make I really, really like how they are, and to see someone modify them and get praise for what I consider a bastardization of my hard work and vision is something that really sets me off. It's not that it's illegal or legal, or that you're not giving credit, it's just that I don't like it when certain things I've made are changed from what I wanted them to be, and then spread around the internet in that changed form.

That's my point of view.

[Ren Ookami]

Oh right, this.

Yep, that's your. Honestly, I had done the pegasi before (still need a critical) so I'll do it myself and find your by chance. Unfortunatly, it was not Sereneforest version and since I'm not familiar with anglo-comunities this is the only reason I've not contacted you. In that precise case, exept if I started with another character, we would had almot the same sheet, but honestly, if you seen mine and I claimed it as mine in the case I done it myself, but same as your by chance, I think you would be even more upset of the misunderstanding as I would never deny the work I done.

That's my way of thinking (and luckilly I found your sheet before starting mine so, no misunderstanding) and since I plan some editions what are, at some pixels of diference, the same consept he implemented, I think the safer and more honest way is to use the base. It may seems wierd for most of you, but as assistant I am used to push consepts of pepole over their actual potential, and considere more respectfull to use a base than do a copycat "because I done the base myself" like both of you seems to say.

Of course, if I recieve a "no" from the author, everything conserning the sprite will be removed, and I'll start something else, but there are almost six months I wait this mail and all is ready since then, so I decided to ask the comunitie to avoid the type of problem I had with not being able to find you back then. Just being honest and the more professional I can, even as amateur assistant spriter. I chosen edition over creation as speciality, not a easy way too ^^"

[Klokinator]

We finally get someone who asks permission to use sprites, seeks people out to ask their permission, waits patiently and never gets a response, and the community shoots him down.

Then you guys wonder why people just steal sprites around here. Ren Ookami is like, the picture perfect version of a polite not-gonna-just-steal-your-shit spriter and he never gets credit for this. SF community is terrible.

[Ren Ookami]

I do not complettly agree, Mercenary Lord was at first upset when I released a "unmounted wywern" based on his without contacting him (noobishly I searched on DeviantArt but not Serenforest back then, and his username is not the same there) but after clarification of the misunderstanding all was back to good. And when I asked the comunity, Duke of Dozel started a pool, as he tell me the results by PM to not bother you guys since the topic subject is Metalflygon08 sprites.

Serenesforest comunitie is not that bad, as starting a serious conversation is always interesting. It is more a exenge of point of views than really a "shoot down" at this state, mine being diferent because, like I said, I chosen the way of assistant in videogames instead of creator as profession, and try to be as professional as I can with the hope of, one day, acheving that goal, as I'm still an amateur self-learning. For now I train on collabs over DA to improve my edition level on my free time, fire emlem style being my speciality aside of drawing.

So, no need to yell at them, discussing is always better. But thank you for defending me. Actually, their point of view is not complettly wrong too, as nothing is white or black in the world. So, I'll use the rule of the three days conserning the pool, and if the "yes" are abrove the "no" by the comunitie I'll release the tree on SerenesForest with credits and link back, then sheets here after I clear my hesitation about including more units on the tree of classes. If you guys have suggestions of classes you can contact me by notes on DeviantArt, same username, or by PM here.

[Lenh]

We finally get someone who asks permission to use sprites, seeks people out to ask their permission, waits patiently and never gets a response, and the community shoots him down.

Shooting down would be "you bad person for even asking! Get out!".

----

Anyways, I agree that it's a grey issue, Ren, and I probably can't explain my reasoning clearly to you. I'll just give my perspective.

In your credits, I feel that most people will be too lazy to find and compare the two works. I think it's good that you are giving credit, but in the same I find it hard to tell what you've really done yourself even after comparing it with the source image.

I think it's fair for people to build off of resources from the games, since most people can readily recognize the origins. It's more unfair to build off a community artist's work, since most people aren't expected to know every artist and their works, and artists shouldn't be required to protect their work if they left it without a Creative Commons license. It's just a respect issue that personally I'd rather stay in favor of the artist.

[Ren Ookami]

Of course author always prevail, and even in the case of a release, if the author comes even later saying "remove it" I'll remove it imediatly. But a "comunity" is supposed to be united and work together, even if they are not a official "team", not have internal fights, since fighting is just limiting the potential of what we can create as artists and giving a bad overall image. As assistant I see those consepts as what they are, unfinished works with latent potential, ready to shine but lost into the shadows while sometimes worse version take their place in the light.

If I just wanted to use a generic famous sprite I'd just download ones from the allowed of the topics made for it. My goal is to help creating new ressources.

As for the comparative, look at the wyvern I was talking about before, you'll se in a flash that I done only the critical move it's not that hard if pepole actually read the sheet. All it cost is a click to the link colored in te description what actualy state "original version" and is directly spottable since it is colored and sometimes bold in mines.Also, like you said, persons can't know all the spriters, but when one become really known, pepole become curious, and this is what I want to achieve as assistant, being a link between the spriters.

Even if it is "under my name" that pepole discover the works, one look at the gallery and they'll understand that this is not a "one man work" but a huge collab. This is how I work, and see things. Pepole need points of focus before they can search things. (Dam, I really sound like a robin hood of sprites you were right.. xD)
Anyway, my goal is not to get all lights on me, but simply to serves spriter comunities and be known as a spriter who collab (even unofficialy) for everyone equaly, no matter if the person is a newbie or not, known, famous, a talented guy who is a complette anonym, or if it is a tribute to a retired spriter.

Thanks again to have tell me (and the readers) your interesting point of view.

[Siuloir]

I'm a bit late to the party, but -

We finally get someone who asks permission to use sprites, seeks people out to ask their permission, waits patiently and never gets a response, and the community shoots him down.

Then you guys wonder why people just steal sprites around here. Ren Ookami is like, the picture perfect version of a polite not-gonna-just-steal-your-shit spriter and he never gets credit for this. SF community is terrible.

If the person doesn't answer though, you should assume that means No, even if that is disappointing.

Lenh is right - People aren't 'shooting him down' - There's not a trace of hostility.

[NICKT™]

I'm a bit late to the party, but -

If the person doesn't answer though, you should assume that means No, even if that is disappointing.

Lenh is right - People aren't 'shooting him down' - There's not a trace of hostility.

12 days late and you still couldn't resist jamming your cock wherever it fits, eh?

[Siuloir]

12 days late and you still couldn't resist jamming your cock wherever it fits, eh?

Glass houses and stones.

I'll be sure to ask your permission to post next time.

[Nightmare]

Reminder that hostility is not an acceptable form of communication, Nickt. As for you, Siuloir, I'd rather you have not responded to that post either. Unnecessary on your part.

Let's try and be civil. It's a little ridiculous that I have to babysit grown men.

[Siuloir]

Let's try and be civil. It's a little ridiculous that I have to babysit grown men.

This level of condescension is equally unnecessary on your part, I'd argue. It's completely incongruous to tell people to be civil and then openly mock them, thereby disregarding civility yourself.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Siuloir

[Lenh]

Congratulations, Ren Ookami, you've had a completely unrelated argument spout up on your thread and can now be seen as a seasoned member of the sprite forums. If you're still here, sorry about that but welcome aboard! ^__^;

[Ren Ookami]

Lenh:
Well, I'm still on the forum (working on private mods for Lord Wolfram's project as I was requested to, and mostly replying by MP only) and somehow surprised by the new answers on this thread, but I get used to how react pepole here. It can seems rude at first, but like we had talk about by PM, spriters just have personal bad experience with thiefs, Mods and hackers don't like unorganized threads, so, my natural akwardness shure is not the best behavior to have a warm welcome

Nightmare:
Siuloir stated a common fact what was still on the current topic, so his only bad point was ro reply to Nickt's provocation instead of ignioring him..

All:
To get back to the topic, I read again the whole thread and it confirmed why I asked for permission in the first place. The sheets are intended to be used in FEXP and he said it's ok to edit, for someone else. That was the reason of asking, to be shure that the permissions were still aviable, since FEXP is free to use. You both are right about the "no answer means no by default" rule, but it was because of these permissions for others that I asked, to verify it's still free to use/edit, and not just allowed to only the pepole who asked back then.

I already done a upgraded brigand in jacket by myself (on deviantart), so I'll start from my own base for the one who looks like MetalFlygon's one, crediting still for consept. The only one I need to be shure is the "shaman", since his unique looking make him good for my new classes consept (as you can see in my 1st post in this thread it's a mounted shaman, to balance the class tree since in GBA era, dark magic are the only ones not having mounted units).

I could use the same way as him by splicing shaman and necromancer, or an un-cloacked necromencer with a common head, but to end in a look alike sprite what pepole will say I copy-pasted from this one , or that I claim a base what is don't mine even if I redo the process by myself, it's rather better to directly start from it and give credits, since pepole will react the same way anyway. Saves time and credit to MetalFlygon will be incuded in my version this way for pepole to don't forget that, yes, I am not the first one doing this kind of "shaman". So it's more to be honest and give legit credit instead of claiming something already started by someone else, than to "steal" the work, that I asked the comunity. Also, if I really wanted to steal, what is the point of asking in the first place ?

For the others, Un-cloaked hector was made already (including myself in personal OC designs, but focusing on sword version) and basicaly, what is not animated yet can be considered as recolors, so should I credit for the color palette used ? I am not going to use all his sprites anyway, but the consepts are actually good. Upgrading a brigand for later chapters, having a more army-like fighter, a more clothed berzerker what can be used as base for female mods, custom moveset more "realistic", all these ideas are worth working on them to provide new ressources to the comunity.

So, to sumarize, here's my final decision, to close the conversation because it was already but I want no ambiguity about all this:
I have class trees of a project pending for months (and not just 1 or 2) because of these specific permission ask, so I'd like to get back to work on it before next year or any undefined date of answer (especialy if the member is retired from spriting comunities and will maybe never answer ever). I was working on other projects while waiting, and polishing some consepts too, but enough wait..

-Conserning the Brigand/Fighter/Berserker, I'll start my own bases, crediting for consepts. It was already intended and started for samples, but not finished.
-Conserning the recolors, well, I'll link this thread to state the base palette credit. It is not too much work, since the class stays the same.
-Conserning the shaman, I'll try to think about another original version, but probably will still use it because of the stated "ok for edits" for another member (page 2) and this whole thread seems to have become about completting the sheets for FEXP anyway. Full credit and link back will of course be given, and I make remove of the sheet if the author contact me to do so. If I do another version instead of working on his shaman, credit will still be given as consept since MetalFlygon's version will still be in the process as inspiration base.

Like it or not I don't mind, but if I was a thief I would not even bother asking permission, or asking for a comunity decision when an author is not replying for over six months to a simple "yes/no" question. I am no hacker, as I make PC/Online projects with RPGmaker, GameMaker and Construct (still have to train on Stencil) but whatever the platform used, graphic ressources are still needed. Also, my project is an original T-RPG game including new mechanisms, and keep FE graphic style as fan-reference until I am experienced enough to make my own graphic style, but I give most of my FE mods for free to the comunity, so I am not the greedy kind either.

Well, I let you react to this post, and in the side note I am civil and just try to explain the situation to avoid misunderstandings, but the best is later to close the thread, since all this talk is now about questions conserning MetalFlygon who seems to be definitively retired from the comunity and this thread was supposed to be about his sprites. Also, if an admin/mod would had replyed to my comunity ask from the start there would not been any big argue I suppose..

I will probably not answer to this thread anymore, as there is already too much fuss and flood here because of my simple comunity ask, so if anyone want to discuss, please contact me by MP instead of replying here unless it is revalent to post a public reply of course. Sorry again for my akwardness and all the fuss every time I ask something in the forum. Also, I am working on writing smaller walls of texts, but I am not skilled at writing short things. ^^"