Best pairing for Eirika?

[Arceus]

So does that mean Seth is still taking the lead?

And for those who want the pairings I deleted, I'm not going to add it, but please, continue.

I'm truly sorry ladies and gentlemen.

How to become famous in SF: Step one: Make a poll.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Serge Dusk Herzen

[PresidentEden]

Looks like it.

Aside: Five people seriously hate Eirika.

[Arceus]

Voted Seth since I hate all other guys and there are no option for Eirika best and truest pairing... Tana.

Following the war, Tana and Eirika remained the best of friends. They visited one another when time permitted, and as they grew older, their children shared a bond of friendship as close as Eirika and Tana themselves did.

How can you call THIS actual love and not just friendship?

Oh, wait.... You were talking about the number of votes for Valter X Eirika, right?

As I said in an earlier post, there are some people who like Eirika X Valter.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Serge Dusk Herzen

[ZemZem]

Aside: Five people seriously hate Eirika.

On the contrary: she's my favorite female lord in the series. I only voted Valter/Eirika because I find Valter's obsession and lust for her an interesting dynamic. My favorite is really Saleh/Eirika, but I voted for Valter/Eirika because...well, I could. :P

[PresidentEden]

Because Valter is as close as Nintendo is allowed to go to "psychopathic sadistic rapist" in an E-rated game (much like how the Eph x Eir implications are as close as they can get to incest in one). Sticking Eirika with one is a fate worse than death.

And I don't get the Tana suggestions some people have made. The incest thing is pretty well-supported by multiple signs, the lesbian theory is just fan projection, imo. The only legit romantic relationships I can plausibly support from the plot are with Ephraim, Seth and Innes, and it's really a two-man race in my mind. Of course, the nice thing is that it's ultimately decided by the player, so if someone finds incest a bit much for them, they can run with Seth just fine.

ETA: I mean, I guess if we just decided to whitewash everything about Valter's actions in the game, then we could construct it as some kind of alpha male dynamic and it could be kinda entertaining, but otherwise I think it's unfortunately rather obvious what's being implied

Edited March 3, 2013 by PresidentEden

[Integrity]

So, the developers decided to name the heterosexual opposite-sex twins' unique weapons after a pair of incestuous twins in Nordic mythology (in a game where several of the other special weapons, and some generic weapons, also reference Nordic mythology)

I'll outline an equally valid and probably more plausible thought process for you:

GUY 1: hey let's name weapons after norse shit cause norse shit is cool

GUY 2: cool good idea. hey these guys are twins can you think of any norse twins

GUY 1: fuck yeah lemme google that real quick

I'll grant you, this is the closest thing to implying anything the entire game has, but you have to take its implications on its own because the other two claims are bogus.

had an entire support conversation between those twins consist of the brother stroking his sister's face

Do you even have siblings that you get along well with? I've just read the entire Ephraim/Eirika conversation again, and it reminds me of how I treat my own younger sister.

and the paired ending calls them restoration king and queen of the same realm... but the game doesn't strongly imply they're incestuous.

Their titles don't change because of game coding. Everybody's title remains in effect regardless of what happens. Eirika is still the Restoration Queen if she marries Saleh and Ephraim marries Tana.

Eirika and Ephraim

Busy days awaited Eirika and Ephraim as they

struggled to rebuild Renais. Their work gave

new hope to those ravaged by the war, and

with Eirika's constant help, Ephraim grew to

be a trusted and honorable king.

What part of this ending, then, implies anything?

EDIT: y'know what? why do I even bother? you're probably just going to see exactly whatever you want to in the whole game and everything I say is wrong because ephraim/eirika is practically canon

EDIT2: to be perfectly, totally clear, i'm not saying don't ship it. i think shipping it is creepy as fuck but i can't tell you not to. all i'm taking offense to is your insistence that the ship is strongly supported by the game.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Integrity

[PresidentEden]

You're really not doing yourself any favors in the persuasion game by assuming I'm some biased nut that sees incest in whatever he wants.

I'll outline an equally valid and probably more plausible thought process for you:

GUY 1: hey let's name weapons after norse shit cause norse shit is cool

GUY 2: cool good idea. hey these guys are twins can you think of any norse twins

GUY 1: fuck yeah lemme google that real quick

So not only do you assume anyone who follows the completely logically sound case I laid out is some biased nut that sees incest in whatever s/he wants, you didn't even check your alternative scenario to see if it fits. It doesn't. Googling "Norse twins" just pulls up the twins Freyr and Freyja -- who were not incestuous -- and there is no mention of Sieglinde and Siegmund on the first page. If they'd simply plugged into Google for answers, they wouldn't have gotten the names. They had to go consciously look up twins somewhere instead of just pulling names off a random Google search, and you cannot possibly hope to prove that you could stumble on the relatively obscure pair of twins without finding out about their history.

Do you even have siblings that you get along well with? I've just read the entire Ephraim/Eirika conversation again, and it reminds me of how I treat my own younger sister.

And on top of your previous insults you also assume I must have poor relationships with my family members. My turn: Do you have to act like a complete asshole to make a point?

As for your completely inane question, I have one younger brother and I'm a heteronormative male, so naturally even if stroking face in the awfully intimate manner described in that support conversation is normal, I wouldn't know. What I do know is that I've talked to guys and girls who've played the game, have siblings of the opposite sex, and think that's creepy and out of the norm. Of course, that's not to say whatever you do with your younger sister is creepy, out of the norm or incestuous.

I also feel the need to point out that this isn't definitive proof in and of itself. If this were the only hint in the game then I'd chalk it up to "That's odd" and move along. It's the pattern that you have to conduct absurd mental gymnastics to deny that has me thinking what I do.

Their titles don't change because of game coding. Everybody's title remains in effect regardless of what happens. Eirika is still the Restoration Queen if she marries Saleh and Ephraim marries Tana.

You're right. I concede this point. I mistakenly thought that the game changed their titles for coupled endings.

I'm not in the mood to go quote mining through the entire game script to prove what I think is a relatively obvious and noncontroversial argument, especially because your response was more ad hominem fallacies than anything substantive, indicating an unwillingness to acknowledge that the argument has more backing than you wish it did (if not acknowledge outright that it is true). Consider this conversation resolved, or at least until you learn to conduct a conversation respectfully.

[Integrity]

First up, sorry for losing my temper. I've just grown really weary of this conversation over the years, I don't know how to let well enough alone, and I've literally never argued with a reasonable person about it, which led me to just lump you in with the multitudes I've argued with in the past. Most of them have *not* had healthy relationships with their siblings (if they had any at all) and have had no idea how a healthy sibling dynamic worked, which led to a "omg they touch they must be fucking" mentality.

Instead of quote-snipping, I'm just going to form a single argument based around your single argument.

Ephraim and Eirika are extremely close. Their A-support is, yes, questionable. I suspect Siegmund and Sieglinde were chosen as weapon names because they sound massively cooler than Freyr and Freyja, you think (?) they were chosen to highlight something else. The problem I had with your post was you took "questionable" and promoted it all the way to "the game strongly implies incest." If I misunderstood you, please correct me and we'll put this behind us.

[PresidentEden]

First up, sorry for losing my temper. I've just grown really weary of this conversation over the years, I don't know how to let well enough alone, and I've literally never argued with a reasonable person about it, which led me to just lump you in with the multitudes I've argued with in the past. Most of them have *not* had healthy relationships with their siblings (if they had any at all) and have had no idea how a healthy sibling dynamic worked, which led to a "omg they touch they must be fucking" mentality.

Accepted, and I understand your frustration. I hate the mentality you're describing too, it's incredibly immature and ruins many a good discussion about any number of modern pieces of art, whether movies, video games, TV shows, comics, you name it. I've always felt Fire Emblem's character development was a significant step above the character development of other games, and it drives me up a wall seeing ridiculous pairings based on the inane and warped social intelligence of the fans pairing them.

Instead of quote-snipping, I'm just going to form a single argument based around your single argument.

b-b-b-but quotesnipping is fun

Ephraim and Eirika are extremely close. Their A-support is, yes, questionable. I suspect Siegmund and Sieglinde were chosen as weapon names because they sound massively cooler than Freyr and Freyja, you think (?) they were chosen to highlight something else. The problem I had with your post was you took "questionable" and promoted it all the way to "the game strongly implies incest." If I misunderstood you, please correct me and we'll put this behind us.

Fundamentally you're not misunderstanding me, but some further clarification may nonetheless be elucidating, so here goes.

Yes, I agree, Siegmund and Sieglinde sound much better as weapon names. Freyr and Freyja don't even sound like weapon names at all. And if that were the only thing then it wouldn't be a case at all. The reaction wouldn't be "Hmm, those were incestuous twins, this definitively proves they're fucking each other." Rather, it would be "That's an odd and unfortunate choice of names." It's the other context that takes it from "unfortunate coincidence" to "strong implications."

In short, those other bits of context:

1. The supports. I understand that the stroking face thing wouldn't be demonstrative of anything (except for affection, of course) on its own. I'd also say it's a perfectly normal thing if there's a significant physical or mental age gap. Further the implication in the game is that there is indeed some mental age gap between Ephraim and Eirika; she's not dumber, but she's very clearly more youthful and innocent. Is it significant enough to make this just a normal thing? That's really beyond the scope of any discussion we could have. I'm going off of the intuitive judgments I made and that my own friends made, but I acknowledge that's subjective -- and again, on its own, meaningless.

2. The setting. The Fire Emblem universe is set in late medieval European society, around the advent of the Renaissance and before the discovery of the Americas. (They throw an individualist humanist Enlightenment strain of thought into a lot of the characters, but aside from that it's all Renaissance-era.) Incest was not the taboo then that it is now, and especially not among the upper class. This, again, proves nothing on its own, especially since marriages at the time were primarily politically motivated, where any hypothetical Ephraim/Eirika marriage would be primarily romantically driven.

3. The Nintendo Effect. I'm coining this term to describe the consistent phenomenon across a lot of Nintendo games to tone down without serious justification any effort to have a mature game for mature audiences. Fire Emblem, for all of its maturity relative to other games, is still rather kiddy at times in its dialogue and plot structure. This shows up in the game with Valter, like I mentioned a few posts back. This guy would be openly acknowledged as a sadistic, psychopathic rapist if the game weren't written to get an E-rating. Any attempt to introduce a taboo behavior in the protagonists is going to be heavily muted, and rely on the gamers to intuit their intentions and fill in the blanks they can't. The weapons + 1 + 2 + 3 create a muted implication of incest in an E-rated game, which I would, indeed, promote to a much stronger implication absent Nintendo's self-enforced kiddiness.

So that's the essentials of what I'm arguing. I'm not definitively saying that Ephraim and Eirika are an incestuous pair of siblings -- I also lend a lot of credence to Seth x Eirika (and the outside leg to Innes x Eirika). But I don't think it's at all unreasonable to say that incest is strongly implied. And I'll observe again (or the first time, don't remember if I previously said it) that the individual player gets the final say on that, so if incest isn't your thing, then you don't have to let it happen, just pick a different pair.

EDIT: pardon the terrible word choice on that last paragraph's first sentence, edited

Edited March 3, 2013 by PresidentEden

[Integrity]

RE:1 ok.

RE:2 The setting (just like almost every fantasy work ever) is kind of nebulous. Yeah, it's *based* around late medieval European society, but it doesn't conform to it precisely in a number of ways.

RE:3 I always assume that in these situations the best answer to assume is the most benign answer, in this case that the two weren't intended to come across as incestuous at all.

THAT SAID, it seems we're basically two rational folks at an impasse so let's just let it lie, eh?

[Narga_Rocks]

Mod-fist-bump

Sometimes I hate our rules. I want to just post that^. I voted for Eirika x Integrity.

Also, I want to say that Innes apparently has a foot fetish "and the outside leg to Innes x Eirika", or I hope he does because otherwise he'll be really disappointed with his portion.

And it's funny that after my threat and the topic I made, I'm not even the one to mess with the vote.

[PresidentEden]

Sounds good to me.

There was something else I'm interested in (general question, anyone is welcome to answer). Why Innes?

EDIT: Innes has a foot fetish? I missed that. My word choice has just been incredible today.

EDIT2: Never mind, I thought I said the "outside leg" thing. Innes is on the outside leg, imo. He's so lame. inb4mad

Edited March 3, 2013 by PresidentEden

[Integrity]

There was something else I'm interested in (general question, anyone is welcome to answer). Why Innes?

What do you mean why Innes?

[Narga_Rocks]

Sounds good to me.

There was something else I'm interested in (general question, anyone is welcome to answer). Why Innes?

EDIT: Innes has a foot fetish? I missed that. My word choice has just been incredible today.

EDIT2: Never mind, I thought I said the "outside leg" thing. Innes is on the outside leg, imo. He's so lame. inb4mad

But your wording makes it look like you are giving him Eirika's outside leg while the rest of Eirika goes with someone else. Strange relationship that Eirika, her brotherSeth, and Innes have.

[RJWalker]

Eirika x Intergrity? Lolwut

[PresidentEden]

But your wording makes it look like you are giving him Eirika's outside leg while the rest of Eirika goes with someone else. Strange relationship that Eirika, her brotherSeth, and Innes have.

It's some Kama Sutra shit, you wouldn't understand.

What do you mean why Innes?

Why is he considered a serious choice to be the guy? Outside of "He's the only non-taboo royalty she can marry," I don't see any reason why she'd want him.

[Integrity]

Why is he considered a serious choice to be the guy? Outside of "He's the only non-taboo royalty she can marry," I don't see any reason why she'd want him.

Some people like the way he's been devoted to her/jealous of Ephraim since they were kids. Plus he's kind of awkward and cute.

[Narga_Rocks]

Some people like the way he's been devoted to her/jealous of Ephraim since they were kids. Plus he's kind of awkward and cute.

Also his A support suggests he at least wants to marry her. That's enough reason to put him on the vote.

[Thor Odinson]

SethxEirika is the only pairing I do in the game because they're the only people I use when I'm not doing some sort of challenge/themed run.

I consider using a full team in FE8 a challenge run because then I'd have to slow down from kicking the game's ass to train some scrubs and that's a challenge to my patience

Aw yiss minimum effort.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Thor Odinson

[PresidentEden]

Some people like the way he's been devoted to her/jealous of Ephraim since they were kids.

Eh, I guess I can see it. I'm not personally sold, but that's individual taste and I can't really knock it.

Plus he's kind of awkward

The appeal of which I could see, except that he's arrogant at the same time. Bad mix.

and cute.

u wot m8

Also his A support suggests he at least wants to marry her. That's enough reason to put him on the vote.

Makes sense. In that case, can a brother get a vote for me x Eirika? I'd be so down for that if she were real

Edited March 3, 2013 by PresidentEden

[Momentai~]

Also his A support suggests he at least wants to marry her. That's enough reason to put him on the vote.

Hmm. This makes me wonder why Forde is a choice. I figured he was in the friend zone once she joked with him about her dress flying up. He doesn't do or say anything that implies he wants to marry her or that he even sees her in that light either. I mean really, these two have even less romantic chemistry than Eirika/Ephraim, and that's saying something. Well, to me it is, because I don't see anything going on between Eirika/Ephraim outside of a really close (but not THAT close) sibling thing.

I don't see the appeal in InnesxEirika either. It's definitely my least favorite pairing for Eirika and for Innes. I just don't like the way he handles demonstrating his feelings for her. When I first read their supports I got the impression that he felt she was just another step on his way to best his rival (his feelings for Eirika developed because of his rivalry with Ephraim). Looking at the supports now it seems to be the exact opposite; he always liked Eirika and he resents Ephraim for being so close to Eirika. His way of dealing with that was to prove he was better than Ephraim in every way (his rivalry with Ephraim developed because of his feelings for Eirika). Is it ever explicitly mentioned in game what caused their rivalry?

Either way, I don't like it. You don't win someone's heart by being a jerk to a person they're close to and trying to 'destroy' the aforementioned person lol. It's obvious HE likes her, but I don't see how she could fall in love with him. He'd be a better choice for her if he wasn't so obsessed with dominating Ephraim.

[Raven]

My shit this thread exploded while I wasn't paying attention.

Incestrity's doing, no doubt.

Edit: I can't spell.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Raven

[Florete]

Because I (and pretty much everyone here) don't like incest.

Where is this knowledge coming from? Never assume.

Eirika x Ephraim has always been my vote.

[Liz]

i always pair Eirika with Saleh. because i think he's awesome.

the same reason i pair Ephraim with L'Arachel. because i think she's awesome

[Rehab]

The entire game it's a little bit hidden unless you're looking for it, but in retrospect Innes' Eirika support IMO reveals him to basically be

this guy, just replace "watch Six Feet Under" with "prove my love to Eirika and/or beat up Ephraim"