FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Samias]

Bonuses are based on class and rank, so Sumia has a number of chapters before Cordelia shows up to build up support rank. Cordelia shows up at chapter 7, which basically gives Sumia 4 whole chapters to build a leg-up on Cordelia. Cordelia also starts on a map that isn't so kind to her with high strength/defense axe users everywhere that 2-3HKO her with high hit rates and Cordelia does very little back, so we might as well consider Cordelia a contributing unit from chapter 8 onwards, which is practically required for this stretch of game because there are multiple desert chapters. Personally I think Sumia's amazing early chapters outspeeding and one-rounding the comparatively speedy enemy myrms to generally outweigh what Cordelia does later on because at that point everyone will start to catch up offensively with class changes on the horizon.

[Lord Raven]

I think Cordelia 2RKO's, but she's good pair up support and can kill a wyvern or two in the map.

[grandjackal]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't support bonuses based on class? So...wouldn't Cordelia give Fred the exact same bonuses as Sumia? Only difference is that Cordelia wins statistically in all the important places and has outright better re-classing options. Chrom is the only real advantage she has, and that's notable, but he's better off with Sully or Avatar, both of whom beat Sumia in both stats and availability. Hell, if flight is so important, both have access to that as well. Oh, but is having Chrom really even such an advantage when Cordelia has nine potential partners Sumia doesn't?

Cordelia > Sumia should be obvious, to be honest. Sumia's around for longer, but Cordelia crushes her otherwise.

You would be wrong for 2 reasons. 1: When you hit C and A bonuses, you get +1 to class support bonuses, so by the time Cordelia shows up, Sumia is giving Fred +2 more to those stats (which includes Speed and Res, 2 stats Fred lacks in and would really like. Secondly, you also give +1 bonus for every stat you have above 10. Considering I've done this about a thousand times I can safely say that Sumia will be around level 10 or higher by the time Cordelia shows up (or hts it around the same chapter of PAralogue 3), meaning that Sumia's had time to grow. She will most likely have around 10 strength (so for the present beating Cordelia anyways), be closer to 20 Skl and Speed, and will already have broken 10 Res, so in total, she will be giving Fred +1 Str, +2 Skl, +7 Spd, +1 Lck and +6 Res. Cordelia needs quite a few chapters to match this if only because of support level.

Furthermore, this is time spent where Sumia is building weapon rank, making Cordelia's weapon rank lead void as Sumia could be close to B by the time Cordelia shows up.

As for Cordelia's supposed gigantic pack of men that want to bang her, that is more her in wanting than her suitors. Most don't really want her aside form Kellam (and Fred can just have Sumia since she comes sooner).

That being said, I will give Cordelia props because on review, she does have her own strengths. Namely, she is much more durable than Sumia, and can further boost this with Kellam who doesn't really have anything better to do (having gotten him to 10 by the time you get your first Master Seal, that also means Kellam gives Cordelia a tasty +7 Def along with some appreciated Str). This lets her one side it a lot more than Sumia, who on occasion will have to let Fred take up the helm, and this can also let Cordelia survive the occasional bowman thus allowing her more movement freedom.

So yeah, maybe it's closer than I thought.

[Florete]

You would be wrong for 2 reasons. 1: When you hit C and A bonuses, you get +1 to class support bonuses, so by the time Cordelia shows up, Sumia is giving Fred +2 more to those stats (which includes Speed and Res, 2 stats Fred lacks in and would really like. Secondly, you also give +1 bonus for every stat you have above 10. Considering I've done this about a thousand times I can safely say that Sumia will be around level 10 or higher by the time Cordelia shows up (or hts it around the same chapter of PAralogue 3), meaning that Sumia's had time to grow. She will most likely have around 10 strength (so for the present beating Cordelia anyways), be closer to 20 Skl and Speed, and will already have broken 10 Res, so in total, she will be giving Fred +1 Str, +2 Skl, +7 Spd, +1 Lck and +6 Res. Cordelia needs quite a few chapters to match this if only because of support level.

Yes, but this goes with the availability thing. Cordelia will match and surpass Sumia's bonuses before too long. And it doesn't have to be with Frederick. While I see you tried to point out that "no one really wants her," I don't see how you can believe this as pretty much every guy except Lon'qu is going to want Spd at some point in the game. If Ricken or Henry are around, she can also go Dark Flier to give them Mag.

This whole Fred thing probably needs to be dropped anyway, he's not a good unit to use long term and neither Sumia's nor Cordelia's positions rely on him. The fact that he is one of Sumia's five potential partners is actually a double-edged sword for her.

Furthermore, this is time spent where Sumia is building weapon rank, making Cordelia's weapon rank lead void as Sumia could be close to B by the time Cordelia shows up.

I didn't mention this because I don't consider it relevant.

To expand on the class sets thing, Sumia basically won't ever want to re-class until 20/10 in case she wants to go Great Knight, but Mercenary and Dark Mage on Cordelia are both reasonable choices in the right circumstances. Yes, both are likely best staying in PK because of problems including building new weapon ranks, cost of Second Seal and blah blah blah, but flexibility is good.

Personally, I see Cordelia > Sumia but still in the same tier, probably right next to each other.

[Shadow Mir]

To expand on the class sets thing, Sumia basically won't ever want to re-class until 20/10 in case she wants to go Great Knight, but Mercenary and Dark Mage on Cordelia are both reasonable choices in the right circumstances. Yes, both are likely best staying in PK because of problems including building new weapon ranks, cost of Second Seal and blah blah blah, but flexibility is good.

Personally, I see Cordelia > Sumia but still in the same tier, probably right next to each other.

Just seeking input, but why would Cordelia want to go Dark Mage?? You lost me there, I'm afraid...

[Florete]

Just seeking input, but why would Cordelia want to go Dark Mage?? You lost me there, I'm afraid...

Dark Magic (Nosferatu) and Def Pair Up bonus.

[Shadow Mir]

Dark Magic (Nosferatu) and Def Pair Up bonus.

Dunno about you, but I wouldn't expect much out of Cordelia as a Dark Mage when she only has a 30% Mag growth...

[grandjackal]

Yes, but this goes with the availability thing. Cordelia will match and surpass Sumia's bonuses before too long. And it doesn't have to be with Frederick. While I see you tried to point out that "no one really wants her," I don't see how you can believe this as pretty much every guy except Lon'qu is going to want Spd at some point in the game. If Ricken or Henry are around, she can also go Dark Flier to give them Mag.

Ricken and Henry's speeds are unfixably bad. She doesn't really help them cause if you still don't double then that speed is useless. As for Dark Flier, if her physical attack is still better all around, then why even bother? As for Fred, the issue is that this "before long" business ultimately doesn't matter. She needs to gain about 8 speed and then build up an S that could already exist to match Sumia's support bonus for Fred, so Fred does not want her cause he could have better bonuses sooner.

If Cordelia wants anything from a support, it's probably best she has something one sided, thus why I suggested Kellam because she gives her everything she would ever want. Vaike..Well, he's not as one sided a support, but I feel Kellam gives better bonuses overall and let's Cordelia just build herself up selfishly so she gets better faster.

This whole Fred thing probably needs to be dropped anyway, he's not a good unit to use long term and neither Sumia's nor Cordelia's positions rely on him. The fact that he is one of Sumia's five potential partners is actually a double-edged sword for her.

Well, I'd disagree with that simply because the pairing I believe is that awe-inspiringly powerful, and I feel a lot of characters are support dependent as it is. As for Fred not being long term, I can say with certainty that Sumia makes that statement not true. I could have him reclassed to something like Paladin or Gryphon around chapter 12-13 for Defender or Deliverer, or I could just let him devote himself entirely to Sumia after he gets Dual Guard+.

I didn't mention this because I don't consider it relevant.

I'd consider faster Silver access very relevant.

To expand on the class sets thing, Sumia basically won't ever want to re-class until 20/10 in case she wants to go Great Knight, but Mercenary and Dark Mage on Cordelia are both reasonable choices in the right circumstances. Yes, both are likely best staying in PK because of problems including building new weapon ranks, cost of Second Seal and blah blah blah, but flexibility is good.

I would think a class that lets Sumia retain her high movement and weapon ranks while fixing her two other issues would render this "flexibility" useless. In fact, there's a thought. If Great Knight Sumia isn't fast enough, then Frederick's Defender/Deliverer/Dual Guard on one of these faster classes with speed bonuses would allow the two to continue as they did early in the game into the lategame.

EDIT: Is Nosferatu with a magic base of 4 really worth losing 2 move and flight? Cause I would highly question your sanity if you think it does.

Edited March 26, 2013 by grandjackal

[Inui]

Durability is worth a lot more than offense in this game because enemies are actually highly dangerous, unlike in games like FE7 and FE9 that you guys might be more familiar with. A chance of death is...kinda bad. And Panne faces very real chances if she's a flier. Not sure why y'all underrate total invincibility so much on this tier list.

I'm looking forward to seeing Panne join Avatar in uber tier since she's furiously masturbated to and the game revolves around giving her exclusive access to all resources on this tier list even if others (like Donnel) end up a lot better when given similar or slightly more resources (turns being a resource). But then in like one or two years she'll be 8th best unit or something when everyone gets better and smarter.

[Galenforcer]

Looks like it's time for another comedy routine...

[Interceptor]

Looks like it's time for another comedy routine...

Only if people are foolish enough to engage with attention-seekers. Protip: ignore him until he learns to behave.

Well I know you of all people are hard to convince otherwise, because you do have some points, but if I may at least try to shine some light on some thoughts...

Italics tell me that RFoF is preparing a full-throated rebuttal already, but I'd just like to add a point that she may not be: Sumia is potentially on Cordelia's team as it is (temporarily).

Cordy gives us a RNG-proof Peg Knight, right when we need one. Her bases are solid, she's just in time for the desert, and her wide array of support options gives you a lot of strategic flexibility for inserting her into any army. No reason that Sumia can't be used as a stepping stool Pair-up and ferry bot for a few chapters where you can leverage it, and then she bows out and makes room for her replacement. Advantage here? You get all of the Peg, and most of the earlygame benefits, without any of the training. The EXP/kills can be put into a more useful lategame unit, like the Cavs, or Chrom.

You can, in fact, just leave her with Fred, her bonuses keeping his heart beating long enough to be useful until he ultimately rides off into the sunset.

[Florete]

Ricken and Henry's speeds are unfixably bad. She doesn't really help them cause if you still don't double then that speed is useless. As for Dark Flier, if her physical attack is still better all around, then why even bother? As for Fred, the issue is that this "before long" business ultimately doesn't matter. She needs to gain about 8 speed and then build up an S that could already exist to match Sumia's support bonus for Fred, so Fred does not want her cause he could have better bonuses sooner.

That's a load of crap. You really think +5 Spd at S support on top of however much she gives from her own Spd (2-3) and, if absolutely needed, a Speed Tonic (this totals +10) is "unfixable?" Sure, they won't start there, but they'll get there, and you're grasping at straws if you try to argue otherwise.

In fact, how about some in-game evidence? I have a convenient save at Ch 14, right after Henry is recruited. He has 9 base Spd. Let's assume that among Ch 13 and 1 or 2 kid Paralogues (like Morgan's, of course), Cordelia and Henry reach C and Cordelia has reached at least 20 Spd. Let's also give him a Speed Tonic because lol150 gold. This puts Henry at 9 + 4 + 2 + 2 = 17 Spd assuming he hasn't even gotten anything from levels.

Pegasi are just out of reach, 19-20 Spd.

Knights have 6 Spd.

Mages have 12-13.

Cavaliers have 13.

The Generals have 11.

The Great Knights have 15, as well as the boss.

+1 Spd from a level up and he's doubling over half of the map. He misses the Pegasi, the two Great Knights, and the boss.

Hm, maybe Henry does start there.

Dark Flier is only if she supports someone Mag-based. Like Ricken or Henry.

Sumia is not going to have 20 Spd when Cordelia shows. But I don't care about this useless Fred thing. Is Sumia a better partner for him? Sure. But only slightly. It's sure not putting her above Cordelia.

If Cordelia wants anything from a support, it's probably best she has something one sided, thus why I suggested Kellam because she gives her everything she would ever want. Vaike..Well, he's not as one sided a support, but I feel Kellam gives better bonuses overall and let's Cordelia just build herself up selfishly so she gets better faster.

Okay? Cordelia has 13 options to Sumia's 5, and only one of Sumia's isn't in Cordelia's 13. There's going to be a good option for her. She's much more flexible based on whatever circumstances the player has.

Well, I'd disagree with that simply because the pairing I believe is that awe-inspiringly powerful, and I feel a lot of characters are support dependent as it is. As for Fred not being long term, I can say with certainty that Sumia makes that statement not true. I could have him reclassed to something like Paladin or Gryphon around chapter 12-13 for Defender or Deliverer, or I could just let him devote himself entirely to Sumia after he gets Dual Guard+.

Everyone may as well be support dependent with how broken the mechanic is, and I'm sure Fred can perform well enough with an S, but the fact of the matter is that his stats just won't hold up. Most of the time you won't really want to field him over others and before long he may just end up a support bot unless he gets over leveled.

I'd consider faster Silver access very relevant.

I would only consider it relevant if we had access to a reasonable amount of Silvers before Cordelia achieves one whole weapon rank. Really now.

I would think a class that lets Sumia retain her high movement and weapon ranks while fixing her two other issues would render this "flexibility" useless. In fact, there's a thought. If Great Knight Sumia isn't fast enough, then Frederick's Defender/Deliverer/Dual Guard on one of these faster classes with speed bonuses would allow the two to continue as they did early in the game into the lategame.

More grasping at straws.

EDIT: Is Nosferatu with a magic base of 4 really worth losing 2 move and flight? Cause I would highly question your sanity if you think it does.

In most cases, quite doubtful. This isn't a big point, it's really just that Mercenary > Knight > Dark Mage > Cleric. Mercenary is the only one that would ever reasonably be considered.

Durability is worth a lot more than offense in this game because enemies are actually highly dangerous, unlike in games like FE7 and FE9 that you guys might be more familiar with. A chance of death is...kinda bad. And Panne faces very real chances if she's a flier. Not sure why y'all underrate total invincibility so much on this tier list.

I'm looking forward to seeing Panne join Avatar in uber tier since she's furiously masturbated to and the game revolves around giving her exclusive access to all resources on this tier list even if others (like Donnel) end up a lot better when given similar or slightly more resources (turns being a resource). But then in like one or two years she'll be 8th best unit or something when everyone gets better and smarter.

If you would bother to read you'd notice that no one is advocating Panne up to Avatar tier.

[Paperblade]

If you would bother to read you'd notice that no one is advocating Panne up to Avatar tier.

SDS did, although he later corrected it

Edited March 26, 2013 by Paperblade

[Florete]

SDS did

Your tense may be more accurate than you realize.

[Inui]

It's cool how the only counter to my arguments is "You're Inui" because there's nothing else you elitist kids can say. Interceptor only gets more elitist as time goes by. It's a shame dondon went that path since he used to be really smart and fun to discuss things with, and he's legitimately good at actually playing the games. This blows. Serenes is like the only truly active FE place left and the facebook pages are filled with mega scrubs. I got banned from the Lord Eliwood page for saying Arden was bad and the admin was an Arden fanboy and said turn counts and efficiency mean nothing LOL.

If you would bother to read you'd notice that no one is advocating Panne up to Avatar tier.

Yet. The standard of granting her exclusive access to things and special perks even if other units end up better with the same or slightly more effort and resources (and better for ~20 chapters counting those Paralogue maps) is already accepted here. Might as well just give her EVERYTHING, right?

I mean, you're like the only sensible and non-elitist person in this thread besides Legault or something, so you see it as crazy, but come on...it can happen. Exclusive access to the first Second Seal and other resources, none of this resource consumption being counted against her because she's "good" with it, but others that end up better don't get the resources.......

God Empress Panne claims all. All gold, all items, the game is catered to her. That's what I've been reading.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Inui

[PKL]

If you get the Ladle you dont miss the Robe . Obvious troll detected.

[shadykid]

If you get the Ladle you dont miss the Robe . Obvious troll detected.

stop defending your precious God Empress Panne, you ELITIST /Inui

[Inui]

Well, darn. I BLAME SOLID FOR MISINFORMING ME. I don't think I ever personally cared to save those lame villagers.

DONNEL CAN USE THE LADLE TOO

YEEHAW!

[PKL]

Yeah, Donnel is such a great unit. 9 (agonizing) levels and hes an amazing unit.

[Inui]

Yeah, Donnel is such a great unit. 9 (agonizing) levels and hes an amazing unit.

Get good. It's pretty agonizing in Lunatic, and nearly impossible, but I'm realyyyyyy not seeing it as difficult in "hard" mode. I mean, you can throw numbers around all you want, but in the end, you're playing the game and he's just there on the map randomly paired with someone, and he can sneak a poke in here and there, conveniently grab a kill whenever, just go about using him casually and think a bit... It doesn't add many turns, if any, if you just play the game and are good at it. Then he becomes an elder god disguised as a mere "mercenary." In my current Lunatic run, he's already a Hero by the ship level (what is that, chapter 14?) and he's farrrrrr better than...well...everyone on my team, and I have a leveled up Panne.

[Redwall]

Can we get an update on the Rescue situation? The possibility of permitting only non-buyable Rescue (which comes in P1, Ch. 8, and Ch. 18 IIRC) was floated around earlier in the thread, and seems like a good restriction that could be mentioned in the OP.

Additionally, given the phrasing in the OP, am I to understand that turncounts are *not* a resource provided we stay within brisk pace? If so, how fast is brisk? This was asked earlier, but I never saw a response.

[Lord Raven]

As far as I'm aware, a brisk pace is somewhere between LTC and casual (but not casual turtling). You're going to have to use your own instinct for that, and I think going out of your way to use Donnel (for instance) and getting him to a decent level by a decent time is not quite a brisk pace.

[Interceptor]

SDS did, although he later corrected it

The people in this thread are almost universally against Panne to Avatar tier, even the folks that don't normally agree with each other. If SDS does it anyway over the objections of everyone and their mother, he can be Shepherd to an abandoned tier list, since one of us will just make a more democratic one as a replacement.

[Paperblade]

Can we get an update on the Rescue situation? The possibility of permitting only non-buyable Rescue (which comes in P1, Ch. 8, and Ch. 18 IIRC) was floated around earlier in the thread, and seems like a good restriction that could be mentioned in the OP.

Additionally, given the phrasing in the OP, am I to understand that turncounts are *not* a resource provided we stay within brisk pace? If so, how fast is brisk? This was asked earlier, but I never saw a response.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=38539&view=findpost&p=2330245

basically it's undefined so that SDS and people that SDS agrees with can flipflop on it to support whatever they want to support

edit: otherwise the tier list would be

Avatar(F)

Sumia

Frederick

Olivia

Rescuebots

everyone else

Edited March 26, 2013 by Paperblade

[Inui]

And I think Donnel makes up for it by speeding up the game later on (and for a VERY long time considering all of those Paralogue maps) and freeing up resources for others. He doesn't consume weapon uses after a bit and consumes them only about half the time while being raised. Even as a level 1 Mercenary, he has a 40% chance to not consume a weapon use. That means he can use something like a Glass Sword with the same amount of uses as a Silver Sword as his level progresses since he's guaranteed +1 Luck per level. Pairs can add Luck too.

This game isn't designed well for debates...... I'm sure you all realize this. ...Right?

Arsalaan [12:12 AM]: raven's post sums up the problem with this thread

Arsalaan [12:12 AM]: literally everything is subjective

Edited March 26, 2013 by Inui