Darros Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) But it wasn't something the OP mentioned at all! Numbers NEVER asked or inquired why Galeforce was overrated! Edited March 25, 2013 by Frog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Tactician Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Galeforce, especially to male children because as it was already stated, being able to move twice in one turn and clear maps faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 But it wasn't something the OP mentioned at all! Numbers NEVER asked or inquired why Galeforce was overrated! He mentioned that it was overrated, I explained why. I've now spent almost as many posts telling you this as I have talking about Galeforce. Why does this bother you? If you don't want to have this conversation, I invite you not to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
47948201 Posted March 25, 2013 Author Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) But it wasn't something the OP mentioned at all! Numbers NEVER asked or inquired why Galeforce was overrated! Is it as good as people say?I don't know what you're talking about '3'Anyway yeah went ahead and edited the OP since the usefulness of Galeforce was indeed what I was asking about. I'm going with the assumption you can grind your way to Dark Flier as much as you want, or to any other skill, but you're free to assume other situations if you like. Edited March 25, 2013 by 47948201 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darros Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 I don't know what you're talking about '3' Anyway yeah went ahead and edited the OP since the usefulness of Galeforce was indeed what I was asking about. I'm going with the assumption you can grind your way to Dark Flier as much as you want, or to any other skill, but you're free to assume other situations if you like. You probably should've been more explicit, because it wasn't there in the old OP, and if it was it certainly didn't stand out. :/ Thanks for clarifying though. And the grinding bit makes some of Legault!'s points moot, even. He mentioned that it was overrated, I explained why. But zie never asked why it was overrated. He mentioned another thread and said they were talking about it's overratedness there. If you want to talk about Galeforce being overrated, you should've went there instead of here. I've now spent almost as many posts telling you this as I have talking about Galeforce. Why does this bother you? If you don't want to have this conversation, I invite you not to. I'm bothered because you're acting like a smug bastard and going around acting like your subjective opinions are objective and the only true ones. They're not. I have several people who can back me up on this. And you're answering a question that hasn't been asked and INSISTING that it has while it clearly hasn't. You talked about "usually accepted standards" when you've not been here long enough to know what they even are. A lot of the standards on this forum are based around LTC. I don't care that you don't like galeforce, that's great for you. But seriously, there's no reason to hate on it everywhere, and go around claiming that it's "horrendous" and "objectively a bad skill" because it isn't. It's not like it's a detriment to have. I'm done replying to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 I'm bothered because you're acting like a smug bastard Oh boo hoo. If you have an argument that makes Galeforce seem useful while providing a specific context, either postgame or maingame, I'd love to hear it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Oh boo hoo. If you have an argument that makes Galeforce seem useful while providing a specific context, either postgame or maingame, I'd love to hear it. Nobody likes smug bastards. Going "oh boo hoo" in response to that isn't going to make anyone like you. Also, you are clearly not LISTENING to anything that anyone who disagrees with you is saying. I DID provide an argument. You thought it wasn't "plausible". You don't want to hear anything but the sound of your own voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Nobody likes smug bastards. Going "oh boo hoo" in response to that isn't going to make anyone like you. Also, you are clearly not LISTENING to anything that anyone who disagrees with you is saying. I DID provide an argument. You thought it wasn't "plausible". You don't want to hear anything but the sound of your own voice. It's not plausible because I can't see that situation coming into play during the regular campaign or during non-loleasy postgame, where such skills would be relevant. You still haven't addressed this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hinode Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) So do you have actual, empirical evidence that Galeforce is not all-important for beating the first 5 waves on Strongest One's Name in 2 turns to access the second one? I can only theoryemblem it myself, but the one guy I've heard with actual experience placed a ton of stress on it, and it sure as heck looks pretty much essential on paper, with all the Dragonskin-toting enemies who aren't going to just get mass ORKO'd on enemy phase like Lunatic endgame foes vs Nosferatu. It also sounds insanely valuable for Ultimate Training 2, although I vaguely remember hearing it's not quite as necessary on that one. Still, 5 Annas to protect and Rescue disabled and probably a variant of the Tiki paralogue AI means that you need to do most, if not all your work on player phase, and Galeforce is the single biggest boost to your player phase of any skill in the game. Edited March 25, 2013 by hinode Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 It's not plausible because I can't see that situation coming into play during the regular campaign or during non-loleasy postgame, where such skills would be relevant. You still haven't addressed this. If you really need me to spell it out for you because you are implausible of thinking about anyone other than yourself: Let's say that I am on Noire's paralogue, which I just finished. I split my army in two, sending one group towards the boss and the other towards Noire. Team 1 goes towards Noire and consists of the following characters: Lucina, Inigo, Laurent, Brady, and female Morgan. Lucina is a great lord. Inigo is a hero. Laurent just promoted to sage. Brady is still a priest. Female Morgan is a grandmaster. Assume that Lucina, Inigo, and Morgan are no higher than level 8 promoted and that they were promoted directly from starting classes. An enemy phase has a bunch of rangers and paladins shooting at Lucina from range. She is equipped with Falchion and therefore cannot counter. By the time the enemy phase is over, she has less than half health and the group is surrounded by 7 paladins and rangers. Now, assume that no one on the team has Galeforce. Brady heals Lucina, but not fully. Brady and Laurent die in 2 hits. The other kids die in 3. Brady cannot attack. Lucina, Inigo, Laurent, and female Morgan all attack and dispatch of four of the enemies, but that's still three remaining. Assume that the enemies have anywhere between 30-60 displayed hit on the characters. Enemies tend to gang up on the same character if that character is within reach. In this scenario, it's likely Brady who will face the highest displayed hit and die in the least hits. Even if he is somehow protected by the others, what of the other kids? What about Laurent, who just promoted and is rather squishy? What if Lucina, Inigo, and female Morgan have Galeforce? They could all gain a second turn if they are able to defeat an enemy, which clears out the path more. It reduces the risk of someone dying on the EP since they can clear out more enemies. If we're not going crazy and grinding everyone, it is likely that your team won't be overpowered enough to just shrug everything off. This is one way Galeforce can be useful. It can allow you to take out enemies that would otherwise threaten your characters' survival on the EP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) What if Lucina, Inigo, and female Morgan have Galeforce? You mean what if all of your children are 10/10/15 minimum? Then your stats are already outrageous and this oddly specific hypothetical loses all meaning. EDIT: I suppose Morgan could technically start out as a PK. Edited March 25, 2013 by Legault! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Manic Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Do you have any personal experience backing this up? The one person I've seen who's actually cleared the final DLC considers Galeforce all-important for even getting to the second, harder wave of enemies. "Just kill everything on enemy phase" is not a valid answer when you've only got two turns to clear five waves of cap-smashing enemies loaded with good skills. THIS. It was never responded to, and if someone is going to insist that Galeforce is objectively a useless skill for the final DLC, I would prefer they KNOW it to be the case, rather than just something theorized or argued hypothetically. I passed Galeforce to Inigo, Brady, and Owain and gave Kjelle and Noire fathers that let both of them access it themselves as well for my file I intend to play all the DLC on and grind to the point where everyone has everything capped to make a streetpass team out of. Galeforce is useless in streetpass, but even just for the grinding to get all stats maxed, since the DLC maps made for grinding require you to initiate the attacks, Galeforce has been a great timesaver and made grinding much more efficient for me. So I like it for that reason. I also like that it allows me to employ strategies that otherwise wouldn't be possible, be it DLC maps, skirmishes, or regular chapters. This single file of mine where I'm grinding everyone aside, in most files I virtually never grind and I still enjoy having Cordelia and Sumia with Galeforce for the aforementioned reason of a greater number of possible strategies it gives me the option to employ; I like having as many options available to me as possible - it's the reason I've always liked Dancer types. It makes them weaker than they would be as Falcoknights but I definitely find Galeforce to be worth it. Plus, if Sumia happens to be paired with Henry she can quite effectively use tomes if she wants to. I play on Hard Mode Classic, if that matters. I imagine Galeforce would indeed likely lose a lot of value in Lunatic, though I could be wrong about that. But even on Hard Mode without any grinding there comes a point in the game where Galeforce definitely saves me turns, and I like it for that reason as well. I especially love how mounted or flying units (like Cordelia and Sumia) with Galeforce can ferry anyone great distances during the player turn and allow their partner to eat up a swath of enemies that otherwise wouldn't be dealt with on the upcoming enemy phase if they're built enough: with pair up, and without grinding, that's more than entirely viable in a number of situations even on Hard Mode. So I like it for that reason. It has the capacity to save turns, time, and lets you accomplish things you otherwise wouldn't be able to accomplish. For those reasons, I'm a fan of Galeforce. This applies to the contexts of the main game without grinding, and the context of grinding itself. Not sure if it applies to the hardest DLC since it's not out yet. It's been argued that it sometimes doesn't make much of an impact on the enemy phase. If the majority of your deployed units have it, I wonder if that's still the case. I imagine the more units you have with Galeforce, the bigger the potential impact it can make on upcoming enemy phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 You mean what if all of your children are 10/10/15 minimum? Then your stats are already outrageous and this oddly specific hypothetical loses all meaning. EDIT: I suppose Morgan could technically start out as a PK. Did you even read my entire argument? I said assume that the children were promoted directly from their BASE CLASSES. Therefore, assume that they got it from their mothers. Also, in case you haven't noticed, Inigo can't ever go PK so he had to have inherited it from Olivia? You merely asked me when such a skill as Galeforce would be relevant or useful. You never mentioned anything about what it takes to get that skill. Therefore, whether it is implausible or not to get Galeforce in the first place is not the question. Whether there are specific circumstances in which it is useful is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xinnidy Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 You mean what if all of your children are 10/10/15 minimum? Then your stats are already outrageous and this oddly specific hypothetical loses all meaning. EDIT: I suppose Morgan could technically start out as a PK. You are in a topic about inheritance. I suppose it's easier to assume they'll just get the skills from their parents, saves the hassle and lets them get other classes. Also acting twice a turn > acting once a turn no matter how you look at it. Sure, you'll probably be strong statwise at 10/15 (considering Cordelia/Sumia mother) or 10/10/15 (Olivia/MU/whatnot), but acting twice maves you move further and put your stats to better use than only once per turn, and you don't even need to swirl around with your dancer or could do it for even more mileage. Other than that, I haven't been paying attention to the topic, but considering how Galeforce isn't insane to get if handling EXP to a small group of units you intend to use (usually considered the optimal choice), I don't see how you can go wrong with it. It is not uncommon to see Galeforce by lategame. This question is pretty much in a vacuum anyways, sometimes you don't even want to invest in the children. But if you do, you probably have the time to grind to galeforce, or a rally skill or some if you want them to be backup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Did you even read my entire argument? I said assume that the children were promoted directly from their BASE CLASSES. Therefore, assume that they got it from their mothers. Also, in case you haven't noticed, Inigo can't ever go PK so he had to have inherited it from Olivia? I'm putting very little effort into this conversation so forgive some small oversights. FeMU isn't passing on Galeforce period considering she has approximately three hundred more useful classes to choose from (especially Hero and Sorcerer). Olivia isn't getting it either without mad overleveling. This leaves the reasonable possibilities of Galeforce!Lucina with Sumia as a parent or Galeforce!Morgan with either Sumia or Cordelia as a parent, which isn't entirely implausible -- Sumia needs to be at 10/15 by the end of Chapter 13. Both being 10/15 is a little silly (especially considering that FK is a superior class choice to DF), so let's assume one of those children in your hypothetical has Galeforce. Fair enough. In this overly specific hypothetical, one child unit might be able to do a little extra with Galeforce. Could that unit also do even more with skills like Rally Spectrum or Lucky Seven or several others? Yes. You merely asked me when such a skill as Galeforce would be relevant or useful. You never mentioned anything about what it takes to get that skill. I believe I've mentioned this at least a half-dozen times. Skills can't properly be evaluated without context, and if getting a skill en masse means overleveling or going through suboptimal class lines, that's a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 I apologize if this has been discussed previously in the thread, but... Legault, how much experience do you actually have playing the game? I feel like the answer would hopefully do a lot to explain why you have your perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xinnidy Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 FeMU isn't passing on Galeforce period considering she has approximately three hundred more useful classes to choose from (especially Hero and Sorcerer). You have tomes on wings. What else do you want. Axes? Olivia isn't getting it either without mad overleveling. This leaves the reasonable possibilities of Galeforce!Lucina with Sumia as a parent or Galeforce!Morgan with either Sumia or Cordelia as a parent, which isn't entirely implausible -- Sumia needs to be at 10/15 by the end of Chapter 13. Both being 10/15 is a little silly (especially considering that FK is a superior class choice to DF), so let's assume one of those children in your hypothetical has Galeforce. Fair enough. In this overly specific hypothetical, one child unit might be able to do a little extra with Galeforce. Has the topic even asked for the preffered skill assuming an efficient run? Also, getting one of the skills to one child already makes them that much more useful, so, in a vacuum where you want an inherited skill for a given child only, it still shows up as the favorable skill, as long as the child can inherit it. Could that unit also do even more with skills like Rally Spectrum or Lucky Seven or several others? Yes. No. I believe I've mentioned this at least a half-dozen times. Skills can't properly be evaluated without context, and if getting a skill en masse means overleveling or going through suboptimal class lines, that's a problem. You are right that it can't really be judged clearly without context, but did the original question ask for a given context, or just analyzed the skills in a vacuum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 I apologize if this has been discussed previously in the thread, but... Legault, how much experience do you actually have playing the game? I feel like the answer would hopefully do a lot to explain why you have your perspective. I'll probably pick it up in a week or two if my work hours allow it. You have tomes on wings. What else do you want. Axes? Staves might be nice, since tomes on fliers with pitiful magic isn't doing you much good. And those better promotion bonuses are cool. No. +4 to all stats? No thanks, would rather have one more attack on player phase. You are right that it can't really be judged clearly without context, but did the original question ask for a given context, or just analyzed the skills in a vacuum? I'm giving it context. If you don't want to provide context and look at the skills independently, which I'm not sure how you'd do, then Galeforce is probably second best in this nebulous scenario next to Rally Speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 I'll probably pick it up in a week or two if my work hours allow it. ... You haven't even played the fucking game yet?! Could you not argue about the usefulness or non-usefulness of a skill until you've actually played the game, especially when everyone else arguing with you HAS played through it at least once? It's ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 ... You haven't even played the fucking game yet?! I think it's pretty rude not to consider my contributions legitimate just because I haven't played Awakening. I still know plenty about the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 I think it's pretty rude not to consider my contributions legitimate just because I haven't played Awakening. I still know plenty about the game. Knowing plenty about the game does not substitute for actual game experience. It is your general attitude of stating that Galeforce is objectively shit, no questions asked, when you haven't even played the game that is an issue. You are literally saying that you know better than everyone else who HAS played the game when you yourself have not. THAT is rude, and YOU have been rude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renall Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Totally answered Dual Support+. But in my defense, I pretended nobody exists but Gerome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Legault, I am honestly sorry that we argued with you. Now that we better understand your perspective I'm sure the argument is pretty much at an end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hinode Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Uh guys, I'm about 99% sure Legualt was being sarcastic when he said he hasn't played the game yet. On the other hand, he has yet to give any evidence that he knows anything about the Ultimate Training DLC stages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
47948201 Posted March 25, 2013 Author Share Posted March 25, 2013 (edited) Just gonna throw in my two cents, but while it's true that "oh well this worked for me" isn't a valid argument, you kinda need to have played the game to get a handle on, like, which enemies can doubled/prevented from doubling with Rally Speed (and when); when that extra boost from Lancefaire or Dual Support+ can save/kill you; and when extended movement or field-clearing with Galeforce is useful. EDIT: Oh whoop he should've been more blatant with his sarcasm then. Edited March 25, 2013 by 47948201 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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