why are jeigans in high tiers?

[Chiki]

Vanessa's poor bases and low con just reinforce her as being a ferry bot at best. I'm doing an efficient runthrough in FE7 right now and massaging Florina's level just ensures she can survive an enemy phase while rescuedropping with flight and 7-8 move, Sain and Marcus are the ones doing the bosskilling, to cite an example from another game. So if we don't penalise Seth for taking away exp from, say, Colm or Neimi, we shouldn't do the same for Vanessa. She can ferry people to places just fine at base stats even, though you might appreciate her levelling up here and there. I'd prioritise a Cav for better combat in indoor chapters, and Artur for staff utility as Bishop/Sage.

Vanessa getting stronger has a strictly negative effect on our early-to-midgame turn counts, and lategame it's all about Warp and Rescue use, doesn't matter that much if you fly or not. You claimed earlier that turn count + reliability is all we should care about, so why are you contradicting yourself now?

That's three people, and you're using whatever it is they said out of context.

As I said, I was using Vanessa as an example--regardless of whether I am wrong or not, there are certain things possible to cut more turns had Seth not been trained. As Horace points out, Chapter 12 and Endgame are two of those.

My answer to you, Cam and dondon is the same. My example about Vanessa is irrelevant. There are other things that exp could have been used for.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Olwen

[Hawkeye]

I no longer have any idea what you're talking about :S

At least you're right about your Vanessa argument

*Edit* That was overly harsh, I'm sorry.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Hawkeye

[dondon151]

but that doesn't mean that seth is responsible for stealing EXP, it just means that either horace didn't have all of the foresight to put effort into training other units while maintaining the same seth-reliant strategies or the tradeoff between the options is equal!

uh let's take chapter 11 as an example. i'm guessing that that map would go faster with a second promoted mounted unit. lets say that this would go 1 turn faster this way. but if you had to give up 1 turn earlier on to baby the mounted unit, then the outcome is the same, so seth is not responsible for being an EXP hog.

though in reality, a mediocre unit doesn't gain that much extra EXP from 1 extra turn of training.

[CT075]

On a chapter-by-chapter basis I can easily see it being beneficial to have put EXP into someone other than Seth (Final being the big one). Over the course of the whole game, though, I can't see it resulting in a net gain (loss? I mean improvement) in turncount.

[Espinosa]

Seth is still the best unit in the desert chapter btw; he just needs to be rescuedropped to solo one half of the map. You have a dancer so it takes a whopping one turn to do so. There's plenty of land on that map, more than usually in FE desert maps.

As I said, I was using Vanessa as an example--regardless of whether I am wrong or not, there are certain things possible to cut more turns had Seth not been trained. As Horace points out, Chapter 12 and Endgame are two of those.

My answer to you, Cam and dondon is the same. My example about Vanessa is irrelevant. There are other things that exp could have been used for.

Horace 6-turned chapter 12 (I think I also either 6-turned or 7-turned but I didn't have the Killer Lance) and Tana's survival and success with critting the spiders on the cliffs was extremely luck-reliant. Vanessa is terribly weighed down by Javelins and lances heavier than Slim (which is laughably weak with her mediocre strength base and growths), so her chances of surviving an enemy phase against an army of gargoyle reinforcements in the north are very low.

Cutting turns with a flier in FE8 is only possible in TAS context, i.e. rigged level-ups & rigged hits, dodges and crits. Beamcrash shaved off 2 turns on that map, but his manipulation over the RNG was complete (TAS-level) and he was also playing on Normal Mode with fewer and weaker enemies (which enabled the training of Vanessa and other units, who mostly got perfect level-ups each time).

In Endgame, Vanessa can one-turn Lyon by proccing Pierce while critting with Killer Lance or something. Chances of this happening are really low in practice, especially in a continuous low turn run. Seth with S swords and Barrier can at least withstand an enemy phase reliably and finish on the 2nd turn with some Physic support.

Don't forget that you miss both the CH8 Elysian Whip (costs ~4-5 turns) and the one Cormag comes with (about the same turn penalty). Vanessa and Tana are crippled by their low Con forever.

I disagree with not having the time to train units who deserve training when Seth exists and kills bosses. I promoted Artur to Sage in the middle of chapter 8 (!) on my recentest LTC run, and reached C staves before the Phantom Ship. Given the same favouritism in mook kills, Vanessa or Franz could potentially grow into stronger units; however, Vanessa is by far the worst of the three at taking on multiple enemies on enemy phase and ORKOing. She also, just like Franz, doesn't pay back when taking the investment. Artur warps and rescues at least, with effectiveness determined by your growths.

[Chiki]

Hawkeye, I was referring to you claiming that no one has the opinion I'm arguing against. I listed people that do. I'm typing on my phone and it's hard to reply to 4 people at the same time.

I think we can reject your claim that Horace didn't have enough foresight. Even with 100% perfect play, there just are situations in which it's impossible to get exp for everyone. FE9 comes to mind, even with bexp. Sure, you might say it's not the same game, but all I am doing is proving that Fire Emblem can have cases in which even perfect play can't fix. I see no reason to think why FE8 would be different.

Second, I am not denying Seth is the best option to dump exp in. I'm not even denying that the tradeoff between options is equal. I grant it to you. I agree with everyone on this. Here is your argument:

1) Tradeoff between options is equal

---

2) Therefore, Seth is not responsible for being an exp hog

I think the conclusion doesnt follow from the premises. All we need to prove the fact that Seth is responsible for being an exp hog is to consider an alternate situation. Say Chapter 8 can be completed in 7 turns with Seth abuse, and 6 without. But Seth saves a turn elsewhere.

You might claim that Seth isn't responsible for being an exp hog since Seth equalizes the turn count, but the very fact that we lost a turn in one chapter is enough to claim Seth is an exp hog. Because the very fact that Seth hogged exp from someone else who could clear a chapter quicker makes him an exp hog, regardless of the fact that Seth saves a turn elsewhere. Magically changing the conditions outside chapter 8 doesn't make Seth any less of an exp hog.

All an exp hog is is something that significantly negatively affects you, regardless of their overall benefit. I think a turn is significant enough to be considered.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Olwen

[Grace]

I think this topic can be summarized to "playstyle differences". Everything being argued has at least some basis in subjectivity (some is more objective), and there is no "right answer".

Everyone is going to have their own opinions about things. Deal with it.

[CT075]

i'm not going to bother arguing semantics about what constitutes an EXP hog; if you're going to define it that way then yes, he is an exp hog

[Espinosa]

Actually, as regards that chapter 8 which you mention (though right now I'm having a strange feeling that you just name random chapters for the hell of it without even trying to remember what the maps were like), having a second Paladin in Franz actually does make a 4-turn possible (instead of the usual 5-turn with Seth as the sole 8-move unit), but requires Eirika to survive an enemy phase against 2 Mages (who usually 2HKO her), 2 Soldiers and a Knight (WTA against Eirika and she does want to counterkill these guys to make way to the throne as Seth will be performing the bosskill). All that extra point of move does is enable to give Seth extra two points of move by rescuedropping him with Vanessa, which is just enough to drop Eirika a full move away from Tirado on turn 3.

You keep saying "if we prove this", "if we prove that", but you haven't even tried demonstrating how any improvements could be made by alternative experience distribution. You're just being evasive with all the sophistry and misuse of entirely unrelated "terms", no offence.

[Hawkeye]

Hawkeye, I was referring to you claiming that no one has the opinion I'm arguing against. I listed people that do. I'm typing on my phone and it's hard to reply to 4 people at the same time.

Okay, now I understand xD

Thank you for explaining.

[General Horace]

the biggest issues with fliers in fe8 is the elysian whip location

like if it were in the seraph robe chest in chapter 8 using Tana or Vanessa would be much more desireable.

and as mentioned, my chapter 12 clear was pretty unreliable, but a trained flier makes things a heck of a lot nicer to deal with, and enables a 1 turn of chapter 13, a 4 turn of the desert (forgot about this looking back) and a bunch of other stuff.

My chapter 14 tc could have been 7 as well if I had more combat able units, i suppose.

Edited April 8, 2013 by General Horace

[Chiki]

Actually, as regards that chapter 8 which you mention (though right now I'm having a strange feeling that you just name random chapters for the hell of it without even trying to remember what the maps were like), having a second Paladin in Franz actually does make a 4-turn possible (instead of the usual 5-turn with Seth as the sole 8-move unit), but requires Eirika to survive an enemy phase against 2 Mages (who usually 2HKO her), 2 Soldiers and a Knight (WTA against Eirika and she does want to counterkill these guys to make way to the throne as Seth will be performing the bosskill). All that extra point of move does is enable to give Seth extra two points of move by rescuedropping him with Vanessa, which is just enough to drop Eirika a full move away from Tirado on turn 3.

You keep saying "if we prove this", "if we prove that", but you haven't even tried demonstrating how any improvements could be made by alternative experience distribution. You're just being evasive with all the sophistry and misuse of entirely unrelated "terms", no offence.

Chapter 8 isn't relevant to that example. It's just something that I used to establish the concept of an exp hog.

[Espinosa]

Chapter 8 isn't relevant to that example. It's just something that I used to establish the concept of an exp hog.

Well, how about you speak of actual games that people play instead of establishing all those concepts? I like to think we have tier discussions to help us play the game better, and not occasionally play the games to have a reason to take turns in forum discussions by conducting collective monologue. There's real FE8 with real maps and difficulties and there's all those theories you have that don't seem linked to it even one bit. And all the other games with their specifics too.

[dondon151]

so you are saying that "EXP hog" is pejorative one moment and not pejorative the next

because there is nothing wrong with being an "EXP hog" if the net outcome is nonnegative. say for a moment that you spent an extra 6 turns training vanessa and then she somehow made up for those 6 turns later on. well, you had to give up 6 turns, so vanessa is an "EXP hog." you might as well be saying that seth is a unit if you're going to use this sort of tautological concept.

EDIT: wrt beamcrash i haven't seen his FE8 videos but i have seen his FE6 ones. what he does can't even be called RNG abusing; he manually edits the RNG state to suit his purposes (which is why he has animations on). now i'm not entirely well-versed in the theory behind pseudorandom numbers, but i actually think that some of the RN strings that he gets are literally impossible with the LFSR generator that the game uses. it's still fun to watch, but what he does is not so much RNG abusing as it is flat out cheating.

Edited April 8, 2013 by dondon151

[Chiki]

Well, how about you speak of actual games that people play instead of establishing all those concepts? I like to think we have tier discussions to help us play the game better, and not occasionally play the games to have a reason to take turns in forum discussions by conducting collective monologue. There's real FE8 with real maps and difficulties and there's all those theories you have that don't seem linked to it even one bit. And all the other games with their specifics too.

If we can't even debate about the validity of concepts then I don't see why we're debating at all. Concepts are things that are valid in all physically possible worlds but not logically possible worlds, so they are always worth debating on.

If you're obsessed with real experience, though, Chapter 12 and Endgame, as Horace pointed out, are examples in which Seth hogs exp and prevents the faster completion of both.

because there is nothing wrong with being an "EXP hog" if the net outcome is nonnegative. say for a moment that you spent an extra 6 turns training vanessa and then she somehow made up for those 6 turns later on. well, you had to give up 6 turns, so vanessa is an "EXP hog." you might as well be saying that seth is a unit if you're going to use this sort of tautological concept.

I don't see the issue. The fact remains that Seth taking exp still prevents faster completion of other chapters, so he is by definition an exp hog.

A minor exp hog, sure. But an exp hog nonetheless.

As I said, I'm simply making very modest claims. Like saying Seth is a 9.5 rather than a 10, as Anouleth and others would claim.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Olwen

[dondon151]

I don't see the issue. The fact remains that Seth taking exp still prevents faster completion of other chapters, so he is by definition an exp hog.

A minor exp hog, sure. But an exp hog nonetheless.

you don't see the problem in wasting our time arguing about what is apparently a tautology

newsflash: mekkah figured out that every unit was an "EXP hog" years ago

Edited April 8, 2013 by dondon151

[Chiki]

Didn't I say I was making modest claims?

[dondon151]

if by "modest" you mean "meaningless," you said that all right!

[Narga_Rocks]

So, Venessa trained cuts x turns from chapter y and Seth trained cuts i turns from chapter j. Let's say they are mutually exclusive. So training Vanessa costs turns Seth could have saved and vice-versa. By your definition, both of them are exp hogs. I think the point the others are making is that your definition of exp hog is useless since everyone becomes an exp hog and it's therefore not even a bad thing anymore.

Exp hog typically has a negative connotation, but the way you are using it there is nothing at all negative about being an exp hog.

Oh, and I'm nearly 100% certain that attempting to train a non-Seth unit to be better than Seth will cost you more turns early than it saves later so if you just used Seth like the rest of us then you'd have a lower turncount.

Oh, and snowy:

in regards to the actual topic (wrt snowy) i'm still curious to see what he has to say wrt an actual playthrough that disproves literally his entire argument

that'd be interesting to see.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Narga_Rocks

[Baldrick]

If you're obsessed with real experience, though, Chapter 12 and Endgame, as Horace pointed out, are examples in which Seth hogs exp and prevents the faster completion of both.

That's not a bad thing; in the process of hogging that exp he saves more turns than you lose on those chapters.

As I said, I'm simply making very modest claims. Like saying Seth is a 9.5 rather than a 10, as Anouleth and others would claim.

I see that. Your claims are so modest so as to be completely useless, as well as unfalsifiable. What does it even mean to say Seth is a 9.5 instead of a 10?

Oh, I've been cut by a long way.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Baldrick

[Chiki]

So what if it's unfalsifiable? This isn't science. It's a concept. This is metaphysics.

Identity isn't a concept. It isn't unfalsifiable. But it's a totally intuitively valid concept no?

Second, I don't think it's meaningless at all. Even if we established that Seth is a minor exp hog, that's a very narrow way of thinking. This definition applies to every Fire Emblem game, and while it may be meaningless for FE8 (which I don't agree with, but say for the purposes of argument it is), it isn't for 9 and 10 and 13 and so on.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Olwen

[Samias]

Why not peruse all the LTC runs of FE8, or start your own? You can theory all you like, but the truth is in the turns cut, if you're going to argue how that exp is being used best. You can make a case for Titania out of experience but then again, Titania is still a key player in getting certain turncounts in the early game simply by virtue of her combined bulk and combat.

I'm not really advocating for or against, but I think arguing in theory is a lot worse than arguing with actual evidence with turncounts and strategy breakdowns.

[shadykid]

so you are saying that "EXP hog" is pejorative one moment and not pejorative the next

because there is nothing wrong with being an "EXP hog" if the net outcome is nonnegative. say for a moment that you spent an extra 6 turns training vanessa and then she somehow made up for those 6 turns later on. well, you had to give up 6 turns, so vanessa is an "EXP hog." you might as well be saying that seth is a unit if you're going to use this sort of tautological concept.

EDIT: wrt beamcrash i haven't seen his FE8 videos but i have seen his FE6 ones. what he does can't even be called RNG abusing; he manually edits the RNG state to suit his purposes (which is why he has animations on). now i'm not entirely well-versed in the theory behind pseudorandom numbers, but i actually think that some of the RN strings that he gets are literally impossible with the LFSR generator that the game uses. it's still fun to watch, but what he does is not so much RNG abusing as it is flat out cheating.

are we talking about TAS runs or is it something different here?

[dondon151]

TAS runs use methods to burn RNs; beamcrash actually modifies the upcoming RN string (which is why he doesn't burn RNs in his FE6 videos).

[Chiki]

I don't like to LTC games which have been TASed. The reason I like FE9, 10 and 13 is because the chapter designs aren't as vulnerable to TASes. For example, one can cut only a turn from my FE9 run. I'm sure a turn can't be cut from that run, apart from one in chapter 3.

The charge of meaninglessness might be valid for 8, but that's because Seth is a special case. In 9, Titania can actually cost you several turns from her exp hogging. In 10, while Jeigans don't really exist, there's still characters like Volug and Sothe and Haar who do hog a lot of exp that could have gone to say, Jill, who actually needs to be durable enough for 3-6. And in 13 you need to train your avatar a lot for Galeforce and such.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Olwen