Experimental tier list 2

[CT075]

You probably addressed this before somewhere, but what happens if Unit A saves X turns in a chapter, or Unit B saves Y<X turns, but only if A isn't saving his X turns (and, for the sake of discussion, let's say that both units do it 100% reliably; i know this isn't realistic but >concepts).

I feel like B would just get credit for saving Y turns, but some part of me wants to say that's wrong if A is in play

[Chiki]

Can you elaborate on that?

[CT075]

imagine a scenario where, say, haar has the opportunity to save 10 turns by flying over to the boss and killing it. for the sake of simplicity he is the only unit who can do this.

now let's say that titania can, instead, ride over (and again, is the only unit who can do this for some reason or other) and shaves off 8 turns by doing the same thing

i would assume that haar gets credit for cutting 10 turns and titania gets credit for cutting 8, EXCEPT for one thing-

Turns saved: A unit saves turns if and only if the highest possible turncount for a chapter is higher without their presence.

the lack of titania's presence would generally *not* cause for a higher turncount because haar exists, so how does that work is the question

Edited May 3, 2013 by CT075

[Chiki]

I think you misunderstand what I mean by "lowest possible clear." Haar gets a primary credit of 2 turns for that clear, as the next lowest possible clear is 2 turns higher (which is with Titania.)

This raises the question of Titania getting credit. She gets credit for having the potential to beat the chapter in 2 turns higher when Haar is not in play.

[CT075]

...Right, I'd overlooked that. Thanks.

[-Cynthia-]

She reliably saves 2 turns from 3-9. And after that point she is a better version of Tanith with superior stats (not to mention she's already promoted, so obviously she's better than Tanith).

Just to be clear, you're talking about Marcia(T) right? I believe this is where a lot of the confusion is coming in, as neither Marcia or Tanith have especially high base stats without transfers.

[Chiki]

The truth applies to both. Marcia can reliably 3 turn 3-9 without transfers.

[-Cynthia-]

The truth applies to both. Marcia can reliably 3 turn 3-9 without transfers.

Seems like an overrating then. Characters like Geoffrey/Lucia/Brom save turns in a chapter or two as well, but are probably not candidates for high tier. Marcia and Tanith would have to have pretty significant combat to do anything in Part 4 and I am...dubious given their bases.

[Chiki]

Feel free to check my FE10 videos. I use Tanith in 4-E-1 and both in 4-2 to great effect.

[Zkirsche]

Why isn't Volug in the same tier as Sothe? Isn't Volug just Sothe but with 9 mov and better longevity in exchange for 1-2 range and extreme earlygame presence?

[Da Bear]

Why isn't Volug in the same tier as Sothe? Isn't Volug just Sothe but with 9 mov and better longevity in exchange for 1-2 range and extreme earlygame presence?

1-2 range. You answered your own question.

[dondon151]

As Jill is most certainly getting the Boots

please explain why, as i'm almost certain that you can 2-turn 3-12 without giving jill the boots and you can 2-turn 3-13 without boots either, by my square counting.

(there's just no one else to make use of it), she has 2 move over Haar.

uh, haar? if they can do the exact same thing in part 4, then it clearly doesn't matter who gets the boots.

[Da Bear]

please explain why, as i'm almost certain that you can 2-turn 3-12 without giving jill the boots and you can 2-turn 3-13 without boots either, by my square counting.

uh, haar? if they can do the exact same thing in part 4, then it clearly doesn't matter who gets the boots.

I'm pretty sure Jill's ability to double in Endgame with high damage and range gives her the rights to the boots.

[Chiki]

Jill does need (at least in my experience) the Boots for 3-12.

Even if you can prove that she does not, the fact remains that she performs far better in high complexity chapters like 3-6, 3-12 and 3-13. The DB would be screwed without her. Nolan and Volug simply don't cut it in LTC. Nolan is incredibly tough to train, and Volug takes too much time using Grass.

The GMs are not having such a bad time without Haar. His flight is really useful only in 3-3 and 4.

Volug will probably be going to upper mid tier. He is completely useless in LTCs other than for 1-E. His Olivi Grass needs are a big deal in LTC as well.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Olwen

[Anouleth]

I'm pretty sure Jill's ability to double in Endgame with high damage and range gives her the rights to the boots.

Haar also doubles fine in Endgame, and his damage is, if anything, higher than Jill's (his range is obviously identical).

[Chiki]

Jill can double swordmasters; Haar can't and needs Resolve to do so. In 4-3 not Endgame.

Another reason why Jill > Haar.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Olwen

[Hawkeye]

Is Titania with speed really better than Jill with transfers? Obviously Titania is awesome but I'm not sure how that extra speed makes enough difference. Also, where is Rafiel saving turns? I know that he is and I know that he's obviously being brought to the tower, but is there anywhere else that he makes really important contributions or is it just the tower that puts him at that spot?

*Edit* Woah I didn't pay enough attention. You have Jill with two different sets of transfer bonus on the list? That really seems like overkill.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Hawkeye

[Chiki]

Hmm. Jill without HP can't survive 3-6 and it would cost an extra turn. But is an extra turn worth putting her below Titania? I guess not.

I could put Jill without HP below Haar.

And it isn't overkill at all. The HP transfer makes a massive difference.

Rafiel saves turns in 1-E, and is just amazing in Part 4.

[Hawkeye]

Can you explain this massive difference? Aside from 3-6, is there anything else other than a slight overall increase in reliability? And it may not be overkill yet, but if we start doing that with every character it will get out of control. Of course only top tier characters are under enough scrutiny for that to be an issue, but still I think it's a bit much.

[Chiki]

1-6-1 (prevents her from getting owned) and maybe 1-6-2 (not too sure about this one). It helps in Part 4 as well as she has to take a bunch of hits in the rout chapters.

[Hawkeye]

I've never had issues with her durability in 1-6. By part 4 I can't imagine that 5hp would make a difference. Still not seeing a massive difference.

[Chiki]

Have you beaten 1-6-1 in 3 turns, 4-P in 2 and 4-3 in 3? Going fast makes a huge difference.

[dondon151]

Jill does need (at least in my experience) the Boots for 3-12.

dude, i'm not stupid. i double checked your video beforehand and it doesn't indicate to me that boots on jill is necessary for 3-12.

Even if you can prove that she does not, the fact remains that she performs far better in high complexity chapters like 3-6, 3-12 and 3-13. The DB would be screwed without her. Nolan and Volug simply don't cut it in LTC. Nolan is incredibly tough to train, and Volug takes too much time using Grass.

define "screwed," mister i-speak-only-in-hyperbole

because i can assure you that the DB is definitely not "screwed" without her, at least according to common connotations of the word. there are several problems here with your assumptions:

1. you think nolan is only too tough to train because you didn't try to use him. in a hypothetical jill-less world, you'd have no other choice, therefore it wouldn't be too tough to train. you would also have to take slightly longer in some part 1 maps, increasing his EXP gain by a large amount.

2. volug using grass is rather inconsequential in 3-6. i 9-turned 3-6 in 0% growths and could have definitely done better with a good nolan. could i have done better even without jill? maybe; i mean, nolan can get pretty good in 3-6. but even so, if your 3-6 clear requires a full 7 turns, volug gets a lot of action.

3. i feel like nolan can maybe 3 turn 3-12 with a lot of favoritism.

4. you can 2 turn 3-13 with only tauroneo. i think nolan can do it too with a shove. this does require a boots investment, which is bad, but alternatively you can 3-turn without boots. it's only a 1-turn difference.

then there, is, of course, the matter of complexity, which i will inevitably disagree with because it is completely subjective. for example, why is 3-12 a 5/5 when you're basically just throwing 2 units in a pool of enemies? why is 3-13 a 5/5 when you are ORKOing the boss, which by the way, is the same exact objective as 2-E (and that map gets a 1/5)?

The GMs are not having such a bad time without Haar. His flight is really useful only in 3-3 and 4.

Volug will probably be going to upper mid tier. He is completely useless in LTCs other than for 1-E. His Olivi Grass needs are a big deal in LTC as well.

what sort of time the GMs are having is wholly irrelevant. the important question is, does haar save turns?

Edited May 4, 2013 by dondon151

[Chiki]

Lol, if you disagree with complexity why are you even on this thread? Take it to the philosophy thread.

[dondon151]

Lol, if you disagree with complexity why are you even on this thread? Take it to the philosophy thread.

if you're just going to discard my legitimate complaints about how complexity is judged, then why did you create this thread? (lol)

and if you're just going to ignore everything else, then why do i bother posting? you had your heart set on the outcome of the tier list from the start. perhaps if it were someone else raising the same questions, then you would consider them more legitimately.

Edited May 4, 2013 by dondon151