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Any idea if there are Earthquake Sorcs in Tower Morse? I don't wanna go back to my earler saves (my chances of 5-turning C21 are slim enough already)... :( I'm not certain that a 10-move Lionel would help me avoid the trouble with the DZs in C37.

Also, a lot of Holmes's chapters are 2-turned even with warpskip. How about sending Plum with him? Runan also doesn't require her in maps like C34 and C36, and not having Plum around will ease up C37 (allowing somebody like Lionel to lead the way since Runan needn't and can't be danced).

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i thought runan does require plum in chapter 36? WoD says that you have to make runan visit the building in the middle of the map and then defend for 5 turns.

plum only saves 1 turn in holmes's maps, though. chapter 31 is 1-turned regardless and chapter 33 is impossible to 1-turn even with plum. if plum doesn't go with runan, than a 5-turn of chapter 37 is totally out of the question, too.

i am 99% sure that morse tower has no earthquake sorcerors. the only human enemies that i remember seeing there are thieves and bishops. i might just go with hacking or cheating in an earthquake since i don't want to go back to before chapter 21 (actually, i can't because i made the stupid mistake of only keeping savestates and not battery saves)... if i can actually figure out how to do it.

EDIT: here's the code to write earthquake (10 uses) into the first slot of runan's inventory:

301731C8 006B
301731C9 000A

and i just realized that sierra doesn't have the WLV to use it >.< which means that i should go redo chapter 36 and rig a couple of wlv procs. she averages 15 wlv at L20, and she should make it there before turn 5 of chapter 37, so i feel justified in doing this.

Edited by dondon151
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YES finally 5-turned this stupid map!

Chapter 37

I used a cheat code to hack an Earthquake into Runan's inventory in the preparations menu. This is so that I wouldn't have to backtrack to a save that I don't even have. Maerhen can mug an Earthquake tome from a sorceror in either of the Aerial Cave encounters prior to chapter 20. It's possible to have one start out very close to the player's starting point given a few resets.

Main Gauche - Runan
Runan has 83 avo with the Main Gauche equipped, facing 0 hit against dracozombies.
Master Swords - Narron, Loffarl
Narron needs help doing damage to golems and Loffarl needs the brave effect in order to kill Janura witches.
Luna Sword - Sun
Sun is the only combat unit available who has enough AS to double golems with the Luna Sword.
Thief Sword - Loffarl
Loffarl's job is to hang back and rob a Land Crash from one of the witches that warp near the starting point.
Master Lance - Raffin
Same reasons as Narron and Loffarl.
Salia Lance - Lionel
Lionel can ORKO dracozombies at 1-2 range with at least 15 str.
Iron Shield - Sun
Golems have high atk and Sun has to fight a lot of them.
Magic Shield - Loffarl
Depending on how many witches warp to the starting point, Loffarl might end up sustaining a few Land Crash attacks.
MHP Plus - Racquel
Racquel needs at least 33 HP to survive a dracozombie attack and become a lower priority target.
Bridge Key - Lionel
A drawbridge obstructs Runan's path to the gate; Lionel has enough mov to lower it.

A lot of units would prefer an Amulet due to the unpredictable nature of some of the enemies, namely the dracozombies and witches. Most units who will face combat against a dracozombie or a witch should get one Amulet. Staff users such as Rebecca and Lyria might die to Land Crash attacks and should take one or two. Plum needs at least two. Sierra should start with an inventory full of them, and make sure to leave a couple spares in the convoy so that Sierra can retrieve them later in the map.

Rebecca, Sierra, Plum, Loffarl, Racquel, Raffin, Vega, Narron, Lionel, Sun, Lyria

Obtained: 2x Bridge Key
Robbed: Janura, Land Crash

With Earthquake, I only had to worry about how to successfully manipulate the DZs. This was super tricky because I couldn't figure out exactly what their priority tree is. I eventually discovered that they really liked targeting Sierra, partially since her HP is low enough that she gets OHKO'd even at max HP. I ended up using her to help guide the DZs over the first two turns.

On turn 1, Lyria used the Power Staff on Runan, and then he ventured straight into the crowd of DZs with Plum's assistance. This alone would cause the invincible DZ to move to the right to attack Runan, which is bad - we would much rather prefer that DZ to move to the left. I rewarped Sierra to the bottom left corner of the map and had her wait there to pull just over half of the DZs. She had to face 9 attacks at 32 hit each, with each one being able to OHKO her, so you can see that it is necessary to have an inventory full of Amulets for turn 1. Lionel, Vega, and Racquel followed Runan's path. I found Lionel to be a higher priority target than Runan, and because of this, two of the DZs were actually pulled very far to the right.

After turn 1 EP, 5 of the DZs killed each other in their breath crossfire.

It just so happened that 3 of the 4 witches rewarped themselves near the starting point, leaving easy pickings for Loffarl. Rebecca used the Zombie Staff on turn 1 to summon diversions. The last witch rewarped to a position where she could attack Plum. On turn 2, Narron and Raffin killed a witch and a dark mage while Plum assisted Sun in moving north as far as possible. Racquel, Vega, and Lionel each killed a DZ that Runan had pulled. Runan advanced as far as possible while staying in the invincible DZ's range in order to pull it in the correct direction. Sierra rewarped to the tile above Runan, withdrew a Magic Shield and all remaining Amulets, and waited.

After turn 2 EP, 1 DZ died in breath crossfire. With the 3 more killed on turn 2 PP, there were only 6 remaining. The 2 DZs that Lionel pulled attacked Narron and Raffin, forcing them to use their Amulets. Narron finished off the other stray DZ on the subsequent player phase.

Sierra had to begin engaging the boss on turn 3 at the latest. She can also kill the sorcerors on counter during turn 3 EP. It's important to not leave any enemy in critical HP range, otherwise the sorcerors will prioritize healing over attacking.

From here, mopping up the remaining DZs was a bit of a challenge. They were too sparse to rely on crossfire killing each other anymore. Since Sierra was outside of DZ range, Racquel also had to make sure to stay out of DZ range, otherwise they ended up going in the wrong direction. Racquel managed to pull one of the vulnerable DZs and killed one each on turns 3 and 4. Vega and Lionel followed Runan. At this point, there were 3 DZs left in the group pursuing Runan.

Lionel opened the bridge on turn 4, Sierra killed the boss a second time, and Runan obtained the Seiken Reeve. Here, in order to make sure that the DZs go the right way, I had Sierra stand in the tile 1D 1R of the boss, which pulled 2 of the DZs in her direction and 1 DZ in Vega's direction. This way, Lionel, Vega, and Runan could each engage a DZ on turn 5 PP (this tended to be a problem because if the DZs flew over the water, then Runan and Vega couldn't reach them).

Sierra rewarped near Plum (who had Lan's Mirror) and used Earthquake twice with her help. With maxed mag, Earthquake exactly 2HKOs the dark mages and summoners on the map. It also 2HKOs the skeleton and the ogre summons and leaves golems in OHKO range. Narron mopped up the remaining golems on turn 5 EP.

Name Lv.Ex HP Str Skl Agi Def Mag Luk Wlv
Runan 19.86
Raffin 25.83
Narron 36.06 52 22 18 17 17 8 21 15
Vega 19.50
Racquel 26.32 33 16 21 21 8 6 17 19
Lionel 20.04 41 18 15 20 10 0 10 16
Plum 13.33 19 0 2 6 1 7 16 8
Sun 30.-- 39 18 20 20 12 9 10 19
Lyria 9.53 20 0 2 6 2 4 15 5
Loffarl 27.33 41 17 12 9 11 2 12 15
Rebecca 6.97 23 0 6 7 2 10 8 13
Sierra 21.79 31 4 16 21 4 20 10 15

Cleared in 5 turns.

In retrospect, I don't even think that Racquel needed the MHP Plus. In fact, I think it would have made the map easier, since she would have been a better target than Narron/Raffin for the stray DZs.

Edited by dondon151
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hmm, i don't think chapter 40 can be 4-turned. i didn't know that you can only open the doors from the outside, and sennet's legs are too stubby for him to hook up with renee. if only he had 6 base movement or frontier fighter or something.

any ideas?

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Since there's no way to really rescue him, you'll probably have to settle for 5 turns. In a way, he'll appreciate the extra exposure to enemies and lava since he has Life or Death anyway to raise his base critical. He's IMO the best at dealing the finishing blow just because Garzel doesn't negate his critical hits and chances are he might have the highest might anyway thanks to the Seiken Canaan. Don't forget to Power Staff him if you can.

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And now, the finale...

Chapter 38

(3) Renee

Holmes needs to end his turn adjacent to the door on the right, but he can do it on the same turn that he kills the boss. One could use a Gatling Bow or a Master Bow; Holmes needs 15 str for the Gatling Bow (or a critical hit) or 12 agi and 12 wlv for the Master Bow.

Name Lv.Ex HP Str Skl Agi Def Mag Luk Wlv
Holmes 14.89 38 14 15 16 13 1 10 13
Shigen 17.06 32 14 21 22 9 0 9 12
Renee 15.46

Cleared in 1 turn.

Chapter 39


Rewarp Sierra, kill Zeek... His stats are fixed this time around.

Name Lv.Ex HP Str Skl Agi Def Mag Luk Wlv
Runan 19.86
Sierra 22.79 31 4 17 21 4 20 10 15

Cleared in 1 turn.

Chapter 40

Door Keys - Shigen, Sierra (2)
Shigen and Sierra will open the doors on turn 1.
Land Crash - Sierra
Sierra needs Land Crash to clear enough opuses after Gerxel appears for the lords to surround him.
Repair Staff - Renee
Renee's Warp Staff will break in this map, and she has to repair it herself.
POW Plus, AGI Plus - Runan
Runan needs 22 agi to double Gerxel to maximize damage. The POW Plus is left over but he can use it too.

Most everyone should take an Amulet, especially Lyria and Plum, who might get OHKO'd by Karla's Meteor if she happens to rewarp close enough (though Lyria does nothing after turn 1). Plum should actually take several because she also sustained two DZ attacks on turn 1, though one of them is technically avoidable. Runan, Holmes, and Renee would each like an Amulet, but due to poor planning, Holmes's team had no Amulets. Sierra should take along 2 Amulets in case she gets unlucky on turn 1 and gets hit by the DZ and both dark knights that she has to face.

Formation (Holmes):
Yoda, Renee

Formation (Runan):
Lionel, Plum, Lyria, Sierra, Vega, Rebecca

Turn 2: Used POW Plus on Runan; used AGI Plus on Runan.

The important thing here is to get the positioning logistics down for turn 4. The four lords have to surround Gerxel when dealing the finishing blow. Both Runan and Holmes can reach the tile 1D of Gerxel if they start at the closest position on turn 4, but even with Frontier Fighter, Holmes can't reach a side tile without Plum's help. Sennet has only 5 mov and can't reach an adjacent tile at all without Plum's help, and therefore it's impossible for both him and another lord to walk up to Gerxel. Tia starts turn 4 already in an ideal position.

So here we've concluded that Renee needs to warp Sennet to a tile adjacent to Gerxel. Obviously the biggest problem here is that Renee and Sennet start on opposite sides of the map. Additionally, Plum needs to be able to move far enough to dance Holmes to a side tile, which actually requires that she be tutored Frontier Fighter (our decision before chapter 20 saves a turn here). Finally, the lords' paths to adjacent tiles will be blocked off on turn 4 by opuses, so those need to be sufficiently cleared. This is where Sierra's Land Crush comes in. Land Crush's 9-area attack in conjunction with Alfred's 5-area Tornado can guarantee that enough space will be available.

The doors here can only be unlocked from the outside. On turn 1, Sierra rewarped and unlocked Runan's door, then Plum danced her and she unlocked Sennet's door. Renee warped Shigen outside of Holmes's door. Holmes ORKO'd the DZ immediately outside his door with the Master Bow, and Runan did the same with the Seiken Reeve. Runan received a Power Staff charge from Lyria beforehand.

Starting on turn 2, Renee, Yoda, and Sennet headed north to meet up above the crater. This is much easier to do because there's no swamp terrain to impede movement. Renee used the Anti-Evil Staff on turn 2 to remove any remaining DZs on the map. Lionel and Vega cleared up nearby enemies while Runan, Plum, and Holmes advanced to the point where the stairs will appear.

Renee had broken the Warp Staff with her use on turn 1, but star weapons don't disappear from the inventory when broken. On turn 3, Renee traded her Warp Staff to Yoda and used the Repair Staff on it.

On turn 4, Sierra and Alfred cleared up most of the opuses with Land Crash and Tornado. Yoda traded back Renee her Warp Staff and Renee warped Sennet to a tile adjacent to Gerxel (but not 1D). Sennet had to move first in order to be within Renee's movement range, meaning that he lost the chance to try to damage Gerxel. Tia moved to the tile 1U of Gerxel and knocked off 38 HP damage with a double crit (52 crit). Holmes moved to the remaining side tile with Plum's help and might as well have not attacked, because his attack only did 1 HP damage. Runan walked 1D of Gerxel and dealt the finishing blow with a 33 HP damage crit (34 crit iirc; he doubled but still needed a crit or skill proc to KO).

Cleared in 4 turns.

Total turncount (chapters): 160 turns

Chapter 1 6 turns Chapter 9 5 turns Chapter 24 6 turns Chapter 31 1 turn

Chapter 2 9 turns Chapter 10 7 turns Chapter 25 6 turns Chapter 32 2 turns

Chapter 3 5 turns Chapter 12 3 turns Chapter 26 3 turns Chapter 33 2 turns

Chapter 4 11 turns Chapter 13 2 turns Chapter 27 4 turns Chapter 34 2 turns

Chapter 5 3 turns Chapter 14 5 turns Chapter 28 1 turn Chapter 35 2 turns

Chapter 6 3 turns Chapter 15 2 turns Chapter 29 3 turns Chapter 36 6 turns

Chapter 7 6 turns Chapter 16 10 turns Chapter 30 1 turn Chapter 37 5 turns

Chapter 8 10 turns Chapter 17 5 turns Division 3 24 turns Chapter 38 1 turn

Division 1 53 turns Chapter 18 4 turns Chapter 39 1 turn

Chapter 19 2 turns Chapter 40 4 turns

Chapter 20 4 turns Epilogue 26 turns

Chapter 21 5 turns

Chapter 22 1 turn

Chapter 23 2 turns

Division 2 57 turns

Turns spent on encounters: 21 turns

Fort Ligria 3 turns

Aerial Mts. 2 turns

Aerial Caves S 4 turns

Aerial Caves N 3 turns

Sealed Bridge 1 2 turns

Morse Tower 5 turns

Sealed Bridge 2 2 turns

thanks for all of your help, and uh... sorry for kind of hijacking your topic. barring stupid things that we've overlooked and rigging lyria's songs and movement growths, i don't think it's possible to get any fewer turns than this.

Edited by dondon151
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So it CAN be 4-turned, damn... Great job on this. Don't worry about having filled the thread with content as that's the kind of thing I've been looking for; I'm just a little upset that a good portion of the work has been done before me but even then not literally - my independent TC for map 16 would've been a few turns higher than 10 if you hadn't stepped in for example. I guess I would've caught up and LTC'd matching your turn count if I weren't recording / was less reluctant to restart in situations following a realisation of imperfect resource allocation. I think I'm going to make an exception for C21 and 5-turn it with the same sequencing method I apply to GBA runs because between not having a good enough Zeek (won't double summoners), a fast enough Mahter (72% displayed hit against summoners which pretty much cuts my chances of success further in half) and having Runan keep the Mirror, the probability of my success is almost astronomically low, so I'll just cheese it out with save states (it should take a lot of work nevertheless as I know since I'm accustomed to LTCing GBA without move manipulation). Anyway, fun times.

What else have you repaired during this run besides the Warp staff in the last chapter? I know you sold the hammers.

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i ended up using my final repair hammer on sierra's janura, but that wasn't really necessary because 1) i could have gotten away with not using it as much in chapter 36 and 2) i stole a second one from a witch in chapter 37.

anyway i can't say for sure that i would have figured out everything on my own eventually; i was especially confused at the beginning of the run, and some maps (like chapter 16) i had no idea what i should aim for. since you're so far along, it wouldn't be prudent at all to backtrack a significant amount, but let's see if we can't optimize the run further for improved reliability. the following are in no particular order:

1. i had saved a repair hammer and a saint proof. those probably would have been better off sent with holmes and sold instead.

2. holmes doesn't need to learn city fighter at brahd. the other brahd tutors are necessary. raffin doesn't need to learn plains fighter.

3. mug an earthquake before chapter 20!

4. i feel like chapter 25 can be doable without using frau. chapter 24 is definitely doable without using frau. it might be easier to just avoid using her altogether. though, since your sasha will be much worse than mine, you should consider frau.

5. send the save staff with holmes for chapters 16 and 21. this means that runan's team needs to be able to optimize chapter 18. i honestly have no idea how to do this. narron can't do any better unless he's way agi blessed or skl blessed. i definitely didn't regret using the first SKL plus on narron, though.

6. if you can make sure that shigen has 15 wlv by division 3 (L20-21 on average), yoda doesn't need to go with holmes. there's not really a great reason for him to go runan's route, either, but if sun doesn't have enough AS to double golems with the luna sword, then yoda can probably use that or a master sword instead.

Edited by dondon151
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I don't have any "useless" tutor skills actually, as I neglected to tutor Plains Fighter to Raffin in C17 (wanted to loot the prizes up north). Plum WAS tutored Plains Fighter but that one's needed to 1-turn Zachariah so it didn't go to waste.

Things I wish I'd done differently prior to the second split:

- reset and get Sasha some levels goddammit

- ignore Barts, prioritise Shigen more and Holmes less (his stats barely matter)

- use Zeek more often so that he's at least agile enough to double the summoners with a Plium in C21

- pick up AGI Plus as one of the C14 prizes

- get Yuni a WLv level-up (such as in C8 or somewhere in the early Holmes maps)

- not waste POW Plus and WLv Plus on Yuni

- Mirror with Plum/Holmes to dodge the sorcs easier (actually, more AGI levels for Holmes would be nice)

- Save staff with Holmes

- Earthquake; ignore the Death tome, though the Silver Axe isn't a bad idea if you're not rushing the "optional" maps

My problem with restarting is mostly being less likely to get a mov-blessed Lionel (whose full potential we still haven't witnessed) and AGI-blessed Narron (maps like C9 are easy to reset due to how simplistic they are though, and a 20% growth is way more likely to proc than Lionel's move growth). And I also don't feel like removing the videos I've uploaded and would like to maintain a continuity of the playthrough - OCD at work here. So far it DOES look like I can get the lowest turn count with what I have prior to C21 though; just need to pass that tedious point.

I think we can at least agree that C18 is funner to replay than C21 w/o the Save staff... More variables at work there to which you can adjust. With C21, it's a lot more tedious since it's purely mechanical work once everything is figured out (though there was one Skeleton whom Katri sometimes missed and who followed Shigen and even blocked Katri's way to breathing the southwastern reinforcements on turn 5 on one of my attempts).

I wanted to see LTC!Sasha with my own eyes, and while you pretty much proved my earlier assumption that she's a great unit in efficiency no matter what da haters say, I wish I'd had a proper Sasha on my roster. Maybe on another run some time (Female only TRS run sounds fun - you get to use Estelle, Julia and all those arrow knights; lolRina).

Wanted to say something else but I forgot what it was.

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having to use a WLV plus on yuni is alright imo. there aren't many instances where it is critical. mahter should be able to make it to 8 wlv in time naturally for thunder sword use before chapter 20 (if you care at all about encounter turncounts). if you're using frau, she wants a WLV plus because she won't be getting enough levels to reach 8 wlv by chapter 24 (but with a good sasha, i surmise that you wouldn't have to). shigen might want a WLV plus for an easy way to get to 15 wlv, but getting him to L20-21 on average should not be that hard to do (this is especially true if you try to rig mummy spawns near the starting point on every possible floor in morse tower).

sasha is not critical for LTC, but she is pretty good. i'm sure that she ends up saving close to 0 net turns if you decide to be creative with alternatives.

and yeah, definitely ignore barts. focus on shigen and vega. i think i could have focused a slight more on shigen if i had also focused barts's investment into vega prior to division 1.

EDIT: also, i don't personally believe that getting a few movement growths on lionel will help save any turns. theoretically extra movement on non-lord, non-dancer units will only help on rout and kill boss maps. but there are no rout maps that a high move lionel could help on because there's always some gimmick that renders his service null. as for kill boss maps, you're not going to be able to 1-turn chapter 23 because there are 2 armor knights in the way. chapter 35 is similarly pretty impossible because of how far away julius is. the only potential that i see is 1-turning chapter 34, which requires an 11 mov lionel (and no terrain skill bonus).

Edited by dondon151
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  • 2 weeks later...

No delay between the two; I record as I play and keep the final run from which I move unto the next chapter. However, I take uploading more seriously than I probably should (namely typing up long video descriptions which takes time and I admit also motivation) and I also have a lot of simultaneous upload series going on. Plus currently I have readymade videos queuing in the following playlists: 1) TRS LTC, 2) Pokemon Crystal Masochist run, 3) FF Tactics Reclass+ run, 4) Pokemon Crystal Smeargle Only, not to mention runs that I record that I don't intend to make public, challenge runs that I don't feel the need to record at all and misc runs that aren't challenges but testing some sort of idea nevertheless (like efficiency sorta playthroughs in Breath of Fire 5 of which I started three in the last few weeks alone). Add to that wildlife observation, social drinking and bodybuilding, and it takes some time to get the uploads going.

That said, I need to 5-turn map 21 already because there's a whole lot more breathing room ahead to motivate me to play at the old pace again.

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