Airship Canon Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Alright, so we know that Owain sees his father take an Arrow from a Risen for him. Now thinking about this, there's a rather large Plothole here, if MU is Owain's Father. Now, yes, if MU is Owain's Father, MU will "disappear" instead of dying in this "scene". Doesn't change the fact that there's a plot hole. The game goes out of its way (Especially in Future Past) to show just how ruthless Grima is- Grima does not care, and will gladly kill his host's loved ones. Morgan happened to prove useful and blindly loyal-- so he uses him/her- not the case with Owain, who is a direct enemy to Grima/the Risen (unlike Morgan). This creates a massive contradiction within Grima's character- because at the point where Owain would've nearly been killed and MU stepped in, MU is not MU, it's Grima. The ruthless, uncaring Grima, who has murdered his best friend in cold blood, killed countless people by, well, eating them, and unleashed the Risen on every living being on the planet. If he meant to use Owain like Morgan, he'd have stuck around to get Owain to join him. Instead, he merely disappears without a trace after saving Owain. Yeah, see the problem there? Grima is not a nice or caring character. And yes, at that point in time, it's definitely Grima. This event is after MU kills Chrom, which was, if you're paying attention, the moment where in the Original timeline, where MU stopped being MU and -willingly- became the Fell Dragon. So there's definitely something wrong with that little sequence of events, even with the ever-so-slight change that MU disappeared instead of "died"... and people think MU/Lissa is canon, intended or what not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Emblem Fan Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Alright, so we know that Owain sees his father take an Arrow from a Risen for him. Now thinking about this, there's a rather large Plothole here, if MU is Owain's Father. Now, yes, if MU is Owain's Father, MU will "disappear" instead of dying in this "scene". Doesn't change the fact that there's a plot hole. The game goes out of its way (Especially in Future Past) to show just how ruthless Grima is- Grima does not care, and will gladly kill his host's loved ones. Morgan happened to prove useful and blindly loyal-- so he uses him/her- not the case with Owain, who is a direct enemy to Grima/the Risen (unlike Morgan). This creates a massive contradiction within Grima's character- because at the point where Owain would've nearly been killed and MU stepped in, MU is not MU, it's Grima. The ruthless, uncaring Grima, who has murdered his best friend in cold blood, killed countless people by, well, eating them, and unleashed the Risen on every living being on the planet. If he meant to use Owain like Morgan, he'd have stuck around to get Owain to join him. Instead, he merely disappears without a trace after saving Owain. Yeah, see the problem there? Grima is not a nice or caring character. And yes, at that point in time, it's definitely Grima. This event is after MU kills Chrom, which was, if you're paying attention, the moment where in the Original timeline, where MU stopped being MU and -willingly- became the Fell Dragon. So there's definitely something wrong with that little sequence of events, even with the ever-so-slight change that MU disappeared instead of "died"... and people think MU/Lissa is canon, intended or what not I don't remember anything about that, I think/thought he just roasted them alive... Psh, MU/Lucina is more canon than that! ANYWAY! Interesting. Makes sense, I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashiane Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 I don't remember anything about that, I think/thought he just roasted them alive... Psh, MU/Lucina is more canon than that! ANYWAY! Interesting. Makes sense, I suppose. I thought Grima just drained the life from them. But that's a really interesting find, Airship. Good job! I don't think I would have noticed that. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samias Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Spoiler for the Future Past DLC incoming! At the very end of the Future Past DLC, Avatar is shown to have plotted out a way to save the kids in conjunction with Naga/Tiki. Even though s/he doesn't have full control of the body, given the opportunity s/he will try to fight the influence off. S/he even apologizes to Morgan at the end of the final battle when Lucina defeats Grima in that timeline with the Falchion. So Avatar might still possess that shred of conscience to defend Owain for that brief moment before Grima takes over the body again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 (edited) Spoiler for the Future Past DLC incoming! At the very end of the Future Past DLC, Avatar is shown to have plotted out a way to save the kids in conjunction with Naga/Tiki. Even though s/he doesn't have full control of the body, given the opportunity s/he will try to fight the influence off. S/he even apologizes to Morgan at the end of the final battle when Lucina defeats Grima in that timeline with the Falchion. So Avatar might still possess that shred of conscience to defend Owain for that brief moment before Grima takes over the body again. Remember, the best he could do was freeze the body. The entirety of Wood/Owain's story makes sense if and only if MU isn't their dad. In fact, even on the rest of the Future of Despair/Future Past conversations... like in Azure/Inigo's... they thought he was dead instead of... you know... turning into the dragon that was destined to destroy all the entirety of the human race. Or I might be remembering something wrong. Edited June 9, 2013 by shadowofchaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samias Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Well I got to thinking, because of the difference in how the war with Plegia turns out, it may be that Avatar didn't become Grima and betray Chrom until much later in the timeline. And then Avatar disappears from Ylisse from that moment on. Otherwise it would have been impossible for Avatar to even have his or her kids. We don't actually know how long that particular war has been fought for because of the vague numbers given by the plot. How the kids didn't recognise their mother/father as Grima if you were their parent is a little wacky though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted June 9, 2013 Author Share Posted June 9, 2013 Well I got to thinking, because of the difference in how the war with Plegia turns out, it may be that Avatar didn't become Grima and betray Chrom until much later in the timeline. And then Avatar disappears from Ylisse from that moment on. Otherwise it would have been impossible for Avatar to even have his or her kids. We don't actually know how long that particular war has been fought for because of the vague numbers given by the plot. How the kids didn't recognise their mother/father as Grima if you were their parent is a little wacky though. Which adds to the already present plot hole of "Morgan+Sibling" issue (Morgan's sibling remembers her, however Morgan is always from a different timeline). In short, MU's pairings cannot have kids beyond Morgan without plotholes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Which adds to the already present plot hole of "Morgan+Sibling" issue (Morgan's sibling remembers her, however Morgan is always from a different timeline). In short, MU's pairings cannot have kids beyond Morgan without plotholes. It's always possible that there's a Morgan from BOTH timelines~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted June 9, 2013 Author Share Posted June 9, 2013 It's always possible that there's a Morgan from BOTH timelines~ There's a logic failure with that though, with the way the Timetravel spell worked in the first place. It's quite odd-- if Morgan didn't go back, the sibling would've/should've noticed that as they all went back at once, together (although they wound up in different times/places, they all wound up in the same timeline as well), and then if she did, why is it that the one we get is from a different timeline? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 To add on Morgan Isn't Tiki another one who is.... a plothole? Im not even sure if Tiki survived in the future >_> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Heeeey, i'm not trying to repair the terrible plotholes, i'm just thinking a possibility. XD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted June 9, 2013 Author Share Posted June 9, 2013 (edited) Isn't Tiki another one who is.... a plothole? Im not even sure if Tiki survived in the future >_> Fairly sure Tiki's fate in the main timeline is roughly the same as hers in Future Past... AKA, Grima kills her. Himself. (Once again, showing how much of a cold-blooded heartless dastard Grima really is-- especially if MU Married Tiki.) Although, there's no reasons why that causes plotholes. Heeeey, i'm not trying to repair the terrible plotholes, i'm just thinking a possibility. XD I'm trying to Phoenix Wright the crap out of this (CONTRADICTIONS! I MUST FIND THEM!), and that dull excuse keeps popping up on GameFAQs. It's got a massive Logic failure, and people never seem to notice when I point that out. Edited June 9, 2013 by Airship Canon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 I have not played Future Past That explains a lot >_> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 I'm trying to Phoenix Wright the crap out of this (CONTRADICTIONS! I MUST FIND THEM!), and that dull excuse keeps popping up on GameFAQs. It's got a massive Logic failure, and people never seem to notice when I point that out. Wasn't exactly trying for a lame excuse, but whatever, i've never been good at logic anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Folt Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Or it could be that Owain was born earlier in the Bad Future timeline, and the Risen attack could have been Validar commanding them to get the Avatar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drgnquester Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 (edited) Or it could be that Owain was born earlier in the Bad Future timeline, and the Risen attack could have been Validar commanding them to get the Avatar? That sounds plausible. I do remember Validar saying to MU during Chapter 23 "Whatever damage I do to your body, Grima can repair it!" Any damage MU sustained Grima would just heal/repair him. Then there's the question of when MU kills Chrom. I always assumed that he kills Chrom, realizes what he's done, and keeps the secret with him until he's later overtaken by Grima (Awakening could've been my favorite FE if it weren't for these assloads of plotholes) Edited June 9, 2013 by Drgnquester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 When you have to account for every single different pairings then a lot of plot holes are bound to pop up (any pairing that involves the kids is an immediate plot hole for the future past scenario since the kids didn't travel back in the original timeline). I think the best thing to believe is that for the most part the pairings in the future past, at least in regards to the Avatar, are not the same as your main game. Both Morgan's hair colour are completely obscured too meaning it is a possibility even if you can interact with the children as the Avatar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tao Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 With this, then you can say the MU should NEVER be married to ANYONE. Because then marrying anyone creates any kind of plot holes. Now I never read the conversation if MU is Owain's spouse instead but to see your own spouse trying to kill you too? Or anyone else too. Because with MaMU as the parent of any of the other children (not Morgan), they still think that their father died too when in fact, the reality is that MU just "disappeared." As for the other thing with Future of Despair chapters, someone else already brought up the point that MU still retained some sort of consciousness / control even after sending Chrom away. and people think MU/Lissa is canon, intended or what not Since when can MU/anyone be seen as canon LOL? Headcanon, maybe, but definitely not in the game. Yes I killed my own headcanon, but do I care? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquakat Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 How the kids didn't recognise their mother/father as Grima if you were their parent is a little wacky though. Couldn't this be explained as a combination of keeping the hood up and flat out denial? If YOUR parent turned into Grima, wouldn't a reasonable reaction be to deny the fact that is your parent, and Grima's just being a bastard and took the form of your parent to psyche you out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Kamina Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 (edited) I think it's reasonable that the Avatar's child that isn't Morgan thinks that their father (or mother in Lucina's case) is dead as they never did come back when they went to fight Validar in the bad future. I honestly don't think that their mother or the Avatar's friends that survived (in the case that the mother died when Grima took control of the Avatar's body, like Cordelia for example) would tell them that their father became a giant dragon hell bent on wiping out humanity. In Owain's case though, that is a plot hole no matter how you look at it. Edited June 9, 2013 by Kamina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 If they don't know their father turned into Grima then they must be at least somewhat confused by the fact that the Morgans have joined him. Unless they never met the Morgans either before or after the Avatar became Grima. I'm also somewhat convinced that the reason things are so bad in this scenario is because it's a world where twin Morgans were born, hence why there's two of them and neither of their names are revealed (since only one of them if any would be named Morgan). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Kamina Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 (edited) If they don't know their father turned into Grima then they must be at least somewhat confused by the fact that the Morgans have joined him. Unless they never met the Morgans either before or after the Avatar became Grima. I'm also somewhat convinced that the reason things are so bad in this scenario is because it's a world where twin Morgans were born, hence why there's two of them and neither of their names are revealed (since only one of them if any would be named Morgan). I wouldn't be surprised if in the Future Past's version of the bad future both Morgans went missing during a risen attack and were assumed to be dead. Also in the Future Past DLC Morgan's description says something about their face being covered. Edited June 9, 2013 by Kamina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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