(Spoilers) If only the final cutscene hadn't been there

[Prometheus]

When my unit chose to risk sacrificing himself to destroy Grima permanently, I was pleased with the ambiguous way they seemed to be handling the outcome. MU is missing and possibly dead, leaving the rest of the group to mourn, search, and hope for his return. This was good - it meant that the sacrifice was significant and it was up to me, as the player, to decide for myself whether MU would ever be found or if he even survived at all.

And then the character endings roll. So far, so good. After all is said and done, however, a brief cutscene occurs in which Chrom and Lissa find MU asleep/unconscious in a field, just like the beginning of the game. In seconds, all ambiguity was gone. They told me what happened to my avatar. They outright stated that his sacrifice had no consequences because of some love and friendship magic and that he would go on to live a happy life (or as happy a life as one could have with Tharja, anyway).

Why? Just why? Wasn't the non-sacrifice ending (allowing Chrom to deal the killing blow) in place for the crowd that wants definite happy endings and closure? Isn't the entire point of having an avatar that the player gets to choose what they are like, what choices they make, and what happens to them?

[Aquakat]

Considering this could've been the last Fire Emblem game, I think they wanted to ensure (insure?) that they ended on a happy note.

Personally, I like that final cutscene, because bonds of friendship and all that jazz and, really, no matter what you think or say, I doubt anyone truly wants to die, even if it is for a good cause. Granted, I think I'd like it better if it were more dependent on how many supports you had, but, again, IS probably wanted to end the series on a high note, if it ended up being the final game for Fire Emblem.

[shadowofchaos]

It's a Disney death because of the whole theme of "bonds between people"... at least it is in the Japanese version. That word is like... said so many times.

It's the ideal of love and friendship transcends being bound by a big bad evil dragon.

In any case, you can see my reaction on it last year... Here

Wait so there's a self-sacrifice ending where MU doesn't actually die in the end?

What's the point of that then? If you're going to introduce something like that, you should go all the way.

I agree that some characters are better off staying dead and that it would be weird to see them surviving, but not MU. The whole point in the ending is to deliver an experience as felt by shadowofchaos - shock and hating to see MU dead, then turning it 180-degree by revealing that MU's alive and rejoined Krom, no longer bound by Gimle's blood.

I have to agree on Nocturnal YL's opinion here.

Super sappy lovey-dovey romantic for your spouse...

「・・・ただいま。」

「くすん・・・おかえりなさい。」

Edited July 5, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Vashiane]

When my unit chose to risk sacrificing himself to destroy Grima permanently, I was pleased with the ambiguous way they seemed to be handling the outcome. MU is missing and possibly dead, leaving the rest of the group to mourn, search, and hope for his return. This was good - it meant that the sacrifice was significant and it was up to me, as the player, to decide for myself whether MU would ever be found or if he even survived at all.

And then the character endings roll. So far, so good. After all is said and done, however, a brief cutscene occurs in which Chrom and Lissa find MU asleep/unconscious in a field, just like the beginning of the game. In seconds, all ambiguity was gone. They told me what happened to my avatar. They outright stated that his sacrifice had no consequences because of some love and friendship magic and that he would go on to live a happy life (or as happy a life as one could have with Tharja, anyway).

Why? Just why? Wasn't the non-sacrifice ending (allowing Chrom to deal the killing blow) in place for the crowd that wants definite happy endings and closure? Isn't the entire point of having an avatar that the player gets to choose what they are like, what choices they make, and what happens to them?

Oh my God... I agree with this so, so, so much.

As sweet and heartwarming as that ending is, that last cutscene renders the choice - and that complicated torrent of emotions that's starting to build up because the true depth of the situation is slowly sinking in - is just, gone. That particular ending makes you think, it makes you wonder how everyone got by without the Avatar then. It leaves a lot of things unsaid, and just as the ideas begin to stir in your mind for the future, the cutscene kicks in and kills it. Dead.

[Sublime Manic]

inb4AirshipCanon

As much as I like book ends, and as potentially powerful as the ending can be when Chrom welcomes you back, I also totally agree and think they should have kept the Avatar dead. It cheapens the ending, I think. SOOOO much.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Sublime Manic

[shadowofchaos]

As sweet and heartwarming as that ending is, that last cutscene renders the choice - and that complicated torrent of emotions that's starting to build up because the true depth of the situation is slowly sinking in - is just, gone.

The rage the was building up for me during the credits was... painful. I was in total agonizing pain. And the ending cutscene made that memorable. It's what I was BEGGING for. If you've ever seen Clannad After Story, that's my comparison. No matter how much of a Deus Ex Machina it was, it made it memorable. Another reason why this game has my soul no matter how stupid some of you may think that ending to be.

Edited July 5, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Vashiane]

inb4AirshipCanon

As much as I like book ends, and as potentially powerful as the ending can be when Chrom welcomes you back, I also totally agree and think they should have kept the Avatar dead. It cheapens the ending, I think. SOOOO much.

I know, and I absolutely adore book ends.

The rage the was building up for me during the credits was... painful. I was in total agonizing pain. And the ending cutscene made that memorable. It's what I was BEGGING for. If you've ever seen Clannad After Story, that's my comparison. It made it memorable. Another reason why this game has my soul no matter how stupid some of you may think that ending to be.

It is! That's the thing about it, sitting through the impossibly slow credits after that ending kills you, and the only thing running through your head as you scan over the various ending, barely paying attention is "why, why, why would you do this to me, IS?" It's brutal. Those five minutes are probably the most painful five minutes as everything slowly dawns on you, as it unfolds and reveals its horrible, undeniable truth.

And then it's just... gone.

Maybe it's just me, but the sudden removal of that crushing feeling brought a serious bout of disappointment.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Vashiane

[shadowofchaos]

It is! That's the thing about it, sitting through the impossibly slow credits after that ending kills you, and the only thing running through your head as you scan over the various ending, barely paying attention is "why, why, why would you do this to me, IS?" It's brutal. Those five minutes are probably the most painful five minutes as everything slowly dawns on you, as it unfolds and reveals its horrible, undeniable truth.

...well I didn't have to sit there as long. xD

It was still agonizing though...

[Vashiane]

...well I didn't have to sit there as long. xD

It was still agonizing though...

... You lucky bastard. XD

It's very agonizing. Although, really, I should have seen it coming the first time around - how many deaths in this game were magically retracted?

Of course, at the time I'd actually believed they had done it - gone through and revived all of those characters just to kill off the one the player created.

That... would have been kind of harsh.

[Sublime Manic]

The rage the was building up for me during the credits was... painful. I was in total agonizing pain. And the ending cutscene made that memorable. It's what I was BEGGING for. If you've ever seen Clannad After Story, that's my comparison. No matter how much of a Deus Ex Machina it was, it made it memorable. Another reason why this game has my soul no matter how stupid some of you may think that ending to be.

Killing off the Avatar you may have developed an attachment to through the entire game isn't already memorable?

You what game has an ending that I loved? FFX (before FFX-2 existed, mind you). I can't watch the final cutscene to that game without crying. And that's what I was reminded of when the Avatar sacrificed himself to prevent a threat from ever harming the world again but having to say goodbye to all those people you've developed "bonds" with. It's not an explicitly joyous message, but it's bittersweet and far more moving and powerful, I think.

And then the Avatar showed up again and I got reminded of FFX-2 instead of just FFX, and while the bookend got to me, I was NOT pleased.

[shadowofchaos]

And then the Avatar showed up again and I got reminded of FFX-2 instead of just FFX, and while the bookend got to me, I was NOT pleased.

Well, to be fair, FFX-2 is probably reminding you of MORE than just the Deus Ex Machina for your unpleasant feeling.

Difference is, for some people, despite them not seeing it as a self-insert, it's still your own created character. Tidus isn't.

Killing off the Avatar you may have developed an attachment to through the entire game isn't already memorable?

Memorable... in a different contrast to you. I hated FFX's ending too... until... the end still had Tidus coming back. It was just... a lot later than we thought it was.

In the context OF a self-insert character... You don't want Gimle/Grima to ever harm your family or anyone else ever again...

"But still... walking this path... I just wish there was some way... To see them again."

...actually I think I remember... one of their last voiced lines was "Mata, aitai na..."

Edited July 5, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Vashiane]

Well, to be fair, FFX-2 is probably reminding you of MORE than just the Deus Ex Machina for your unpleasant feeling.

Difference is, for some people, despite them not seeing it as a self-insert, it's still your own created character. Tidus isn't.

Memorable... in a different contrast to you. I hated FFX's ending too... until... the end still had Tidus coming back. It was just... a lot later than we thought it was.

In the context OF a self-insert character... "You don't want Gimle/Grima to ever harm your family or anyone else ever again..."

"But still... walking that path... I just wish there was some way... To see them again."

...actually I think I remember... one of their last voiced lines was "Mata, aitai na..."

Ouch. Reading that was painful. >_<

[Sublime Manic]

Well, to be fair, FFX-2 is probably reminding you of MORE than just the Deus Ex Machina for your unpleasant feeling.

Difference is, for some people, despite them not seeing it as a self-insert, it's still your own created character. Tidus isn't.

Memorable... in a different contrast to you. I hated FFX's ending too... until... the end still had Tidus coming back. It was just... a lot later than we thought it was.

In the context OF a self-insert character... "You don't want Gimle/Grima to ever harm your family or anyone else ever again..."

"But still... walking that path... I just wish there was some way... To see them again."

...actually I think I remember... one of their last voiced lines was "Mata, aitai na..."

Said difference goes both ways, though. There are some people who see the avatar as a self-insert, and because of that, don't want the death that they chose for their character and all the impact that comes with that to be sullied by being brought back like that. I'm actually more attached to and moved by Tidus than I am the avatar despite the latter being a self-insert because the former gets a LOT more development with Yuna than whomever the Avatar marries with just four support conversations, usually. But that's neither here nor there.

Ending of FFX didn't have Tidus welcomed by someone. It implies he doesn't cease to exist, but it's still very ambiguous. A lot like how not knowing if the avatar still exists and thinking they're out there somewhere and simply having to hope that they are is ambiguous and open-ended... until Chrom greets you.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Sublime Manic

[Vernatio]

I really liked Mega Man Zero 4's ending.

Its ending carried weight, in my opinion, because a real sacrifice was made, even though I'm sure they would retcon the hell out of if they wanted to make a MMZ5.

Edit: Just wanted to add that the image after the credits was the nail in the feelings coffin for me.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Vernatio

[Jackos]

I really liked Mega Man Zero 4's ending.

Its ending carried weight, in my opinion, because a real sacrifice was made, even though I'm sure they would retcon the hell out of if they wanted to make a MMZ5.

Edit: Just wanted to add that the image after the credits was the nail in the feelings coffin for me.

Technically he was kind of resurrected to become power armor for some brat some centuries later only to kill himself yet again in the same damn station, yeah I'm sure he'd rather stayed dead.

More on topic, while the stinger at the end kind of cheapened the whole sacrifice thing it was pretty expectable given the whole power of friendship thing they were going for during the entire game so I didn't mind it all that much.

[Prometheus]

Technically he was kind of resurrected to become power armor for some brat some centuries later only to kill himself yet again in the same damn station, yeah I'm sure he'd rather stayed dead.

More on topic, while the stinger at the end kind of cheapened the whole sacrifice thing it was pretty expectable given the whole power of friendship thing they were going for during the entire game so I didn't mind it all that much.

I really don't know if you can call MMZX canon. Frankly, MMZ was the only Mega Man series to actually have a compelling story, or at least the only one I've played that has a compelling story.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Prometheus

[Jackos]

I really don't know if you can call MMZX canon. Frankly, MMZ was the only Mega Man series to actually have a compelling story.

My policy is that they are all canon (only that some franchises are alternate timelines, mainly Battle Network), no matter the level of stupid, heck most of the pre-Zero games had Sigma/Willy playing as the Bowser of the story so there's not really much story to mess up and all the charm is on the gameplay anyways.

About killing Grima, am I the only one who thought that when they said "only Chrom/MU can kill him" they actually meant that they were the only ones who could deal the final blow on gameplay and that the ending was based off that? I thought that if I killed him with someone else he would pull an Ashera and restore all his health (actually, that would have been a nice touch, even if it would make killing him on Lunatic hell, additional trolling points for IS if pair-up hits could also screw you up).

Edited July 5, 2013 by Jackos

[Prometheus]

My policy is that they are all canon (only that some franchises are alternate timelines, mainly Battle Network), no matter the level of stupid, heck most of the pre-Zero games had Sigma/Willy playing as the Bowser of the story so there's not really much story to mess up and all the charm is on the gameplay anyways.

About killing Grima, am I the only one who thought that when they said "only Chrom/MU can kill him" they actually meant that they were the only ones who could deal the final blow on gameplay and that the ending was based off that? I thought that if I killed him with someone else he would pull an Ashera and restore all his health (actually, that would have been a nice touch, even if it would make killing him on Lunatic hell).

Oh, I thought that too, so I was determined to have MU kill him one on one.

[Vashiane]

My policy is that they are all canon (only that some franchises are alternate timelines, mainly Battle Network), no matter the level of stupid, heck most of the pre-Zero games had Sigma/Willy playing as the Bowser of the story so there's not really much story to mess up and all the charm is on the gameplay anyways.

About killing Grima, am I the only one who thought that when they said "only Chrom/MU can kill him" they actually meant that they were the only ones who could deal the final blow on gameplay and that the ending was based off that? I thought that if I killed him with someone else he would pull an Ashera and restore all his health (actually, that would have been a nice touch, even if it would make killing him on Lunatic hell, additional trolling points for IS if pair-up hits could also screw you up).

So did I. I remember the first time I played I had Bow Knight!Donnel there softening him up with arrows while I moved Chrom and Silvia forward to finish him off, and freaking out because Donnel suddenly decided to critical.

[Sublime Manic]

About killing Grima, am I the only one who thought that when they said "only Chrom/MU can kill him" they actually meant that they were the only ones who could deal the final blow on gameplay and that the ending was based off that? I thought that if I killed him with someone else he would pull an Ashera and restore all his health (actually, that would have been a nice touch, even if it would make killing him on Lunatic hell, additional trolling points for IS if pair-up hits could also screw you up).

Yeah, you're definitely not alone on that. Had Chrom make the kill my first file thinking shit would go down if it wasn't him or the avatar, and then they give you the "final blow" choice and I realized who kills him on the map, itself, didn't actually matter.

[shadowofchaos]

About killing Grima, am I the only one who thought that when they said "only Chrom/MU can kill him" they actually meant that they were the only ones who could deal the final blow on gameplay and that the ending was based off that? I thought that if I killed him with someone else he would pull an Ashera and restore all his health (actually, that would have been a nice touch, even if it would make killing him on Lunatic hell, additional trolling points for IS if pair-up hits could also screw you up).

I was in the same boat too... well not in Lunatic... but yeah...

Uhh... I was surprised they had a prompt of a yes or no... well I guess it'd be hell if they had to look at ANOTHER condition and see if a Dual Attack from the RIGHT MU (lol Guest Avatars) killed them. I mean on kill skills like Galeforce or Despoil, they still work even after a Dual Attack finisher...

[Vashiane]

I was in the same boat too... well not in Lunatic... but yeah...

Uhh... I was surprised they had a prompt of a yes or no... well I guess it'd be hell if they had to look at ANOTHER condition and see if a Dual Attack from the RIGHT MU (lol Guest Avatars) killed them. I mean on kill skills like Galeforce or Despoil, they still work even after a Dual Attack finisher...

Eesh, I can already imagine trying to program that. Especially if you're like me and remake the same avatar - I've got three Silvias in my logbook right now. That would be a serious pain.

[Sock]

Can't remember what I initially thought about the ending. Though I do know that, even with the "storybook ending", I prefer the sacrifice end rather than the Grima-returns-to-slumber end.

Granted, I think I'd like it better if it were more dependent on how many supports you had,

I agree. Being honest here, I tried this: not one single support point through the entire game. No staff usage, no dual battles, no pair up, didn't view the Chrom/Lucina C support... Still got the cutscene. What "bonds" kept me in that world?! I got a laugh out of it, at least. (Of course I wasn't expecting anything to change.)

[Usana]

Speaking of having supports determine the end, the Kingdom Route of Vanguard Bandits does that. I really liked that touch to be honest. If Awakening had done that it would have been pretty awesome.

[Integrity]

The end of the end cutscene after knocking off Grima was literally my favorite part about FE13.

And I'm not even just being contrary for its own sake or just trying being funny, it was seriously my favorite part.